N5 - Ballaghaderreen to Scramoge [construction to commence shortly]

user1842 · 15-02-2018 2:04pm

marno21 wrote: »

It's likely to make the Capital Plan, and given the cost per km for 35km it'll be a big bang for your buck scheme.

This shouldn't cost more than 100m. 35km of at grade single carriageway through cheap land in rural Roscommon.

I just had a look at the proposed route. I have to say I don't agree with the amount of roundabouts.

No roundabouts on the Charlestown or Ballaghaderreen bypass.

I assume it falls between two stools. Towns are too small for a grade separated junction and too large for an at grade junction. Thus in roundabout territory?

Ireland and our obsession with roundabouts

Pete_Cavan · 15-02-2018 2:23pm

marno21 wrote: »

It's likely to make the Capital Plan, and given the cost per km for 35km it'll be a big bang for your buck scheme.

This shouldn't cost more than 100m. 35km of at grade single carriageway through cheap land in rural Roscommon.

Isn't it likely to be very expensive per km, between poor bearing ground, variable terrain, water table, archaeology, etc? Land costs would be a small percentage of the overall road costs and I doubt the CPO prices will fully reflect the quality of the agricultural land there.

marno21 · 15-02-2018 2:36pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Isn't it likely to be very expensive per km, between poor bearing ground, variable terrain, water table, archaeology, etc? Land costs would be a small percentage of the overall road costs and I doubt the CPO prices will fully reflect the quality of the agricultural land there.

It'll be cheap compared to schemes closer to urban centres as it's so rural.

The other point I made is it's the cheapest type of single carriageway suitable - no overbridhes, all at grade junctions, no complex structures.

discodaveirl · 15-02-2018 10:00pm

user1842 wrote: »

I just had a look at the proposed route. I have to say I don't agree with the amount of roundabouts.

No roundabouts on the Charlestown or Ballaghaderreen bypass.

I assume it falls between two stools. Towns are too small for a grade separated junction and too large for an at grade junction. Thus in roundabout territory?

Ireland and our obsession with roundabouts

Any link to the proposed route? Really more roundabouts? We have our fair share of them on the n4/5. 2 in Edgeworthstown and 5/6 in Longford. One more proposed at Scramoge cross.

At the very least there'll be one west of Strokestown, one for Elphin/Tulsk, one for Ballinagare/Elphin, and one more for Frenchpark/Boyle... Its fair enough say these rural areas are to small for a grade seperated Junction but why not do this work now and give these small rural areas as much of an opertunity to develop as possible.

markodaly · 15-02-2018 10:13pm

Is this entirely SC, no DC or passing lanes?

The N4 from Mullingar to Longford is due to be upgraded to HQDC. From then the N5 to Scramoge? How is this road, is it any good?

How is the N5 to Castlebar from Ballaghaderreen ?

The Westport to Castlebar is due to be upgraded to DC as far as I know.

marno21 · 15-02-2018 10:24pm

markodaly wrote: »

Is this entirely SC, no DC or passing lanes?

The N4 from Mullingar to Longford is due to be upgraded to HQDC. From then the N5 to Scramoge? How is this road, is it any good?

How is the N5 to Castlebar from Ballaghaderreen ?

The Westport to Castlebar is due to be upgraded to DC as far as I know.

1. This is entirely at grade single carriageway, Type 1 (3.65m lane in either direction with 2.5m shoulder).

2. The existing N5 from Longford to Scramoge is reasonably decent SC to Termonbarry (which will not be bypassed) and then a 2006 wide S2 scheme from Termonbarry to Scramoge.

3. The N5 from Castelbar to Ballaghaderreen is reasonably decent realigned SC from Castlebar (or Turlough where the N5 Westport-Turlough scheme will start) to Swinford with wide S2/Type 1 SC from Swinford to where it will meet this scheme (2006 Charlestown bypass and 2014 Ballaghaderreeen bypass). The Turlough-Swinford section was proposed for upgrade with full bypasses of Bohola and Ballyvary but this has been long fingered. What is there is acceptable in fairness.

4. The N5 from Westport to Turlough east of Castlebar will be upgraded to Type 2 DC starting circa. 2021.

markodaly · 15-02-2018 10:32pm

marno21 wrote: »

1. This is entirely at grade single carriageway, Type 1 (3.65m lane in either direction with 2.5m shoulder).

2. The existing N5 from Longford to Scramoge is reasonably decent SC to Termonbarry (which will not be bypassed) and then a 2006 wide S2 scheme from Termonbarry to Scramoge.

3. The N5 from Castelbar to Ballaghaderreen is reasonably decent realigned SC from Castlebar (or Turlough where the N5 Westport-Turlough scheme will start) to Swinford with wide S2/Type 1 SC from Swinford to where it will meet this scheme (2006 Charlestown bypass and 2014 Ballaghaderreeen bypass). The Turlough-Swinford section was proposed for upgrade with full bypasses of Bohola and Ballyvary but this has been long fingered. What is there is acceptable in fairness.

4. The N5 from Westport to Turlough east of Castlebar will be upgraded to Type 2 DC starting circa. 2021.

Very detailed response, thanks.

It seems so that once the this scheme and the Westport scheme get finished, along withe the N4 scheme to Longford, you will have a decent road all the way from Westport to Dublin, servicing many various towns along the way.

Pete_Cavan · 16-02-2018 10:44am

A better option would be to plan a road from the end of the Ballaghadereen bypass to link to the end of the Roosky DC. Part of this would also form part of a COS N4 bypass (which should possibly be a higher priority). This would give the Dublin Mayo route DC all the way to COS, rather than a single carriageway with lots of roundabouts from Longford.

paulbok · 16-02-2018 11:33am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

A better option would be to plan a road from the end of the Ballaghadereen bypass to link to the end of the Roosky DC. Part of this would also form part of a COS N4 bypass (which should possibly be a higher priority). This would give the Dublin Mayo route DC all the way to COS, rather than a single carriageway with lots of roundabouts from Longford.

There was a proposed alternative route like that that connected the ballaghadereen bypass to the Sligo side of Carrick on Shannon meeting a new M4/N4.
Don't know if it was ever seriously considered

user1842 · 16-02-2018 11:57am

discodaveirl wrote: »

Any link to the proposed route? Really more roundabouts? We have our fair share of them on the n4/5. 2 in Edgeworthstown and 5/6 in Longford. One more proposed at Scramoge cross.

At the very least there'll be one west of Strokestown, one for Elphin/Tulsk, one for Ballinagare/Elphin, and one more for Frenchpark/Boyle... Its fair enough say these rural areas are to small for a grade seperated Junction but why not do this work now and give these small rural areas as much of an opertunity to develop as possible.

Link to the proposed route:

http://www.roscommoncoco.ie/en/Services/Roads/Publications-and-Information/N5-Ballaghaderreen-to-Scramoge-Road-Project/Public-Information-Day/

Each PDF details a section of the road while also giving a full overview.

I count 3 roundabouts on the scheme, which is a pity.

MayoSalmon · 16-02-2018 1:47pm

user1842 wrote: »

Link to the proposed route:

http://www.roscommoncoco.ie/en/Services/Roads/Publications-and-Information/N5-Ballaghaderreen-to-Scramoge-Road-Project/Public-Information-Day/

Each PDF details a section of the road while also giving a full overview.

I count 3 roundabouts on the scheme, which is a pity.

Has an Application been put into An Bord Pleanála for this scheme and its merely awaiting funding or whats the story?

discodaveirl · 16-02-2018 1:52pm

marno21 wrote: »

3. The N5 from Castelbar to Ballaghaderreen is reasonably decent realigned SC from Castlebar (or Turlough where the N5 Westport-Turlough scheme will start) to Swinford with wide S2/Type 1 SC from Swinford to where it will meet this scheme (2006 Charlestown bypass and 2014 Ballaghaderreeen bypass). The Turlough-Swinford section was proposed for upgrade with full bypasses of Bohola and Ballyvary but this has been long fingered. What is there is acceptable in fairness.

The road is good between Swinford and Castlebar, east of Swinford the hard shoulders are none existant. Few good stretchs to overtake but mostly solid white line..

Im sure the N5 junctions in Swinford will have to be investigated quite a number of fatalities in the past few years.

dubhthach · 16-02-2018 1:53pm

The archaeology on this should be interesting, given the historic importance of the 'Mag nAí' area throughout the early medieval period there should hopefully be some interesting discoveries.

marno21 · 16-02-2018 2:31pm

paulbok wrote: »

There was a proposed alternative route like that that connected the ballaghadereen bypass to the Sligo side of Carrick on Shannon meeting a new M4/N4.
Don't know if it was ever seriously considered

It was (and is until the scheme gets planning approval) considered in the event that the archaelogical issues caused by Rathcrogan would be an issue with the progression of the scheme. The priority is to shadow the N5.

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Has an Application been put into An Bord Pleanála for this scheme and its merely awaiting funding or whats the story?

Yes, it was lodged just before Christmas. Decision due by 9th July.

discodaveirl wrote: »

The road is good between Swinford and Castlebar, east of Swinford the hard shoulders are none existant. Few good stretchs to overtake but mostly solid white line..

Im sure the N5 junctions in Swinford will have to be investigated quite a number of fatalities in the past few years.

There are hard shoulders east of Swinford? Definately from the start of the Charlestown bypass to the eastern end of the Ballaghaderreen bypass has shoulders.

user1842 · 16-02-2018 2:41pm

This looks like its very close to being shovel ready

16-02-2018 9:35pm

discodaveirl wrote: »

The road is good between Swinford and Castlebar, east of Swinford the hard shoulders are none existant. Few good stretchs to overtake but mostly solid white line..

Im sure the N5 junctions in Swinford will have to be investigated quite a number of fatalities in the past few years.

Another fatality in the past week, we must be in double figures for fatalities at Swinford junctions in the past 15 years. Very large numbers considering the size of the town. Redesigns definitely needed.

marno21 · 06-07-2018 12:57pm

Reminder to all interested that this is due for decision by Monday (it may get put back although to my knowledge there weren't many objections during the planning process).

It should start within 2-3 years as there isn't currently any other projects approved and not at tender besides the M28.

Tigerandahalf · 08-07-2018 2:47pm

It is a shame this road (from the midlands to Castlebar) isn't dual carriageway. I have driven on it a few times and it is very difficult to overtake, even on the newer sections. There are very few overtaking lanes so you can really get held up with lorries or tractors.

The area around Swinford is very dangerous as well with a few junctions on the road not having a side lane to turn off. All of these newer roads should be dual carriageway especially when they are interconnecting the country.

road_high · 09-07-2018 9:21am

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

It is a shame this road (from the midlands to Castlebar) isn't dual carriageway. I have driven on it a few times and it is very difficult to overtake, even on the newer sections. There are very few overtaking lanes so you can really get held up with lorries or tractors.

The area around Swinford is very dangerous as well with a few junctions on the road not having a side lane to turn off. All of these newer roads should be dual carriageway especially when they are interconnecting the country.

Agree. I think if they're building it at all, might as well go the whole hog and dual it. I know the traffic figures on the N5 are in the order of 5 k daily in parts but if building a whole new road offline it makes sense. Are the costs really that more substantial? Would it require any more much land? From a lot of the newer single carriageway routes around the country you can see how much space is taken/wasted with overkill hard shoulders.

marno21 · 09-07-2018 9:29am

road_high wrote: »

Agree. I think if they're building it at all, might as well go the whole hog and dual it. I know the traffic figures on the N5 are in the order of 5 k daily in parts but if building a whole new road offline it makes sense. Are the costs really that more substantial? Would it require any more much land? From a lot of the newer single carriageway routes around the country you can see how much spaced is taken/wasted with overkill hard shoulders.

Quite a bit extra for 2+2 on this route. This scheme is proposed to be at grade single carriageway, so 2+2 would require bridges for roads etc, along with a 25% increase in road width.

If every car using the existing road switches to the new road it'll have an AADT of 4.5k-5k. Local traffic will still remain on the old road so the new road will operate with 3.5k-4k AADT likely. That's around 1/3 the capacity of the road they are building and would be 20% the capacity of a 2+2.

joujoujou · 09-07-2018 2:55pm

marno21 wrote: »

[...]

If every car using the existing road switches to the new road it'll have an AADT of 4.5k-5k. Local traffic will still remain on the old road so the new road will operate with 3.5k-4k AADT likely. That's around 1/3 the capacity of the road they are building and would be 20% the capacity of a 2+2.

In today's figures - yes. However, it's well known once road's upgraded, more and more drivers would use it.

marno21 · 09-07-2018 3:24pm

joujoujou wrote: »

In today's figures - yes. However, it's well known once road's upgraded, more and more drivers would use it.

The EIS says differently:

EIS wrote:

Based on the traffic model for the proposed road development, traffic flows on the various sections of the N5 between Ballaghaderreen and Scramoge are generally in the range of 4,600 to 6,800 AADT with Heavy Commercial Vehicle (HCV) contents of between 7.7% and 10%. These are predicted to increase to 5,400 to 8,100 AADT with HCV contents of 10% to 12.6% in the design year 2035. These modest flows do not of themselves indicate a significant traffic capacity deficiency. The key issues are the effects of the poor standard of the N5 on journey times and level of service. The existing average end to end journey time along the existing 35.2km of the N5 corridor is approximately 32 minutes. The average speed of 66kph is below the target minimum average speed set by TII for an inter-urban national primary road. Under the US Highway Capacity Manual Classification, the Level of Service (LOS) for the N5 is currently LOS F. This minimum level of Service is below that recommended for the inter-urban national road network under TII’s policy

Traffic on this part of the N5 has dropped in the last 12 months as more people in Southern Mayo use the empty M17 to get to the M6 for Dublin trips

09-07-2018 6:01pm

marno21 wrote: »

Reminder to all interested that this is due for decision by Monday

Anything happen today?

marno21 · 09-07-2018 6:04pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Anything happen today?

Unless someone in An Bord Pleanala is working late, no news yet.

Then again, it's not unlike ABP not to release decisions on the day they are due.

joujoujou · 10-07-2018 4:21pm

marno21 wrote: »

The EIS says differently:

[...]

I'd rather see traffic statistics before vs after, especially regarding longer, upgraded years ago stretches. With all due respect to road authorities, what you quoted is just what it says: predictions. Can be right, can be wrong.

And obviously, I can be wrong as well. Time will tell. :cool:

MayoSalmon · 11-07-2018 12:29pm

marno21 wrote: »

The EIS says differently:

Traffic on this part of the N5 has dropped in the last 12 months as more people in Southern Mayo use the empty M17 to get to the M6 for Dublin trips

N5 makes no sense for anybody in Southern Mayo now since M17 opening.

Chris_5339762 · 11-07-2018 10:12pm

MayoSalmon wrote: »

N5 makes no sense for anybody in Southern Mayo now since M17 opening.

Did Dublin - Castlebar - Dublin the other day. Dublin - Castlebar via the N5 at 7am on a Sunday morning was lovely. Easy, fast road and this scheme will pretty much complete the worst bits.

Coming home (mainly due to anticipated Longford Show chaos), Castlebar - Tuam - Dublin. 30km further, same length of time.

Via N4/N5: 150km of non dualler
Via M17/6: 50km of non dualler

spacetweek · 14-07-2018 11:00am

I see "Result by this date" means nothing to ABP.
Still no announcement on the planning permission!

paulbok · 14-07-2018 12:41pm

Notice in the local papers about something on display in the local libraries and online till mid August, and inviting comments.

user1842 · 19-07-2018 9:41am

Well it was not part of last weeks planning decisions. I have no clue if ABP actually stick to their decision dates.

I suppose no news is bad news in this case. Maybe ABP think the road is of too good quality for the west of Ireland (N26 decision) :rolleyes:

N5 - Ballaghaderreen to Scramoge [construction to commence shortly]

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