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"Man Up" campaign by SafeIreland

12467…32

Comments

  • #92
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    iptba wrote: »
    Random video I just came across in my FB feed of a woman *really* losing it. This is in public but no reason to believe she wouldn't behave like this at home:
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=817033734993095

    That's a video of someone most likely off their head on drugs, drunk or mentally ill. How on earth is it connected to the 'man-up' campaign? Or is it just to demonstrate that women can be violent/ill/drunk/drugged up?

    Does that mean it's ok for women to post videos of drugged or drunken men and say 'no reason to believe he doesn't behave like this at home?', on similar threads? I can imagine how that would go down.


  • #93
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭iptba


    Candie wrote: »
    That's a video of someone most likely off their head on drugs, drunk or mentally ill. How on earth is it connected to the 'man-up' campaign? Or is it just to demonstrate that women can be violent/ill/drunk/drugged up?

    Does that mean it's ok for women to post videos of drugged or drunken men and say 'no reason to believe he doesn't behave like this at home?', on similar threads? I can imagine how that would go down.
    Possibly not my most informative post. However, if it ever gets to the stage that domestic violence is presented as a problem women inflict on men and children, and there's a thread discussing this issue, I won't object to a post highlighting that men can be violent if it wakes people up from any denial they have on the topic.


  • #94
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    iptba wrote: »
    Possibly not my most informative post. However, if it ever gets to the stage that domestic violence is presented as a problem women inflict on men and children, and there's a thread discussing this issue, I won't object to a post highlighting that men can be violent.

    Of course men and women can be violent. You didn't just highlight her violence, you made the pointed remark that there was no reason to suppose she wasn't an abuser in a domestic setting.

    Assuming that a violent outburst in public - for all we know as a result of mental illness (assuming her 'ultimate form' doesn't sound like a rational statement), means someone is probably an abuser in the home, and somehow connected to the man-up campaign that is the subject of this thread is quite the stretch though.


  • #95
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    iptba wrote: »
    Possibly not my most informative post. However, if it ever gets to the stage that domestic violence is presented as a problem women inflict on men and children, and there's a thread discussing this issue, I won't object to a post highlighting that men can be violent if it wakes people up from any denial they have on the topic.

    For that to happen more men have to come forward and admit they were subjected to it. We can trot out all the stats in the world but its only when there is a human face to it that people really take notice. Its hard to empathise with a statistic. Men are reluctant to come forward though and I wonder why that is.


  • #96
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭iptba


    Candie wrote: »
    Of course men and women can be violent. You didn't just highlight her violence, you made the pointed remark that there was no reason to suppose she wasn't an abuser in a domestic setting.

    Assuming that a violent outburst in public - for all we know as a result of mental illness (assuming her 'ultimate form' doesn't sound like a rational statement), means someone is probably an abuser in the home
    Do you really believe that it's a stretch to think that this person could lose it at home. I don't.


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  • #97
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    iptba wrote: »
    Do you really believe that it's a stretch to think that this person could lose it at home. I don't.

    I don't know, and neither do you. I'd rather hold people responsible for the crimes I know they commit, not one's I think they probably do.

    If I saw two men exchange punches I wouldn't assume they beat their partners, although maybe you would.


  • #98
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭iptba


    Candie wrote: »
    I don't know, and neither do you. I'd rather hold people responsible for the crimes I know they commit, not one's I think they probably do.

    If I saw two men exchange punches I wouldn't assume they beat their partners, although maybe you would.
    If I saw a man go crazy like that if McDonald's drive-thru' wouldn't give him chicken mcnuggets at 10:30am in the morning, which is the example presented, I wouldn't have a problem believing he could be a risk in the domestic setting also.


  • #99
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    iptba wrote: »
    If I saw a man go crazy like that if McDonald's drive-thru' wouldn't give him chicken mcnuggets at 10:30am in the morning, which is the example presented, I wouldn't have a problem believing he could be a risk in the domestic setting also.


    Right so.


  • #100
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭iptba


    eviltwin wrote: »
    For that to happen more men have to come forward and admit they were subjected to it. We can trot out all the stats in the world but its only when there is a human face to it that people really take notice. Its hard to empathise with a statistic. Men are reluctant to come forward though and I wonder why that is.
    It's an interesting question alright. And putting a human face to the story could help.

    I've read of quite a lot of men who when they reported it, were arrested themselves which certainly doesn't encourage men to come forward for help.

    A lot of the problems, I believe, stem from a view that a woman couldn't hurt a man.


  • #101
    diveout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 746 ✭✭✭diveout


    eviltwin wrote: »
    For that to happen more men have to come forward and admit they were subjected to it. We can trot out all the stats in the world but its only when there is a human face to it that people really take notice. Its hard to empathise with a statistic. Men are reluctant to come forward though and I wonder why that is.

    Men and women have a different definition of abuse to start with. That's one reason.

    The other is because, ironically, of women's second status. So what kind of man are you if you got put in your place by a woman? It can feel like he is demoted. And I wouldn;t have understood this before unless I saw it myself, as a witness to a domestic violence scene between a family member and his spouse, I saw the police's attitude initially. Seriously, if I was not there as a witness [I am a woman], the tables could have completely turned and he would have been the one who was arrrested, because the cops walk into the scene prejudiced.

    She then later in the week she had a civil order or peace to get her stuff, so the police escorted her to the apartment, and their attitude was completely assuming she was the protected party, when it fact it was her husband, and they let her take all the time in the world until I pointed out to them that it was him who was the protected party and their attitude completely changed. And most likely it changed because I was also a protected party, and I am a woman.

    The thing is if a male spouse gets into a domestic with their wife, the wife will just claim self defense, and there is a high possibility he will be the one to get arrested. So that is why men don't speak up.


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  • #102
    newport2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,579 ✭✭✭newport2


    eviltwin wrote: »
    For that to happen more men have to come forward and admit they were subjected to it. We can trot out all the stats in the world but its only when there is a human face to it that people really take notice. Its hard to empathise with a statistic.

    When we discuss crimes against women, such as violence, rape, etc, it is constantly emphasised (correctly in my opinion) that these crimes are hugely under-reported. What would your reaction be if the response in relation to dealing with this was:

    "women have to come forward and admit they were subjected to it. We can trot out all the stats in the world but its only when there is a human face to it that people really take notice. Its hard to empathise with a statistic."

    It's pretty much saying that if you don't report it, sure don't expect anyone to empathise with it. Come on.

    ?????
    eviltwin wrote: »
    Men are reluctant to come forward though and I wonder why that is.

    Similar to the reason that women are reluctant to come forward about certain type of crimes. Because they won't get taken seriously, humiliation, they'll never get the perpetrator convicted, they as the victim will end up being blamed. The list is endless.


  • #103
    GalwayGuy2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭GalwayGuy2


    @Iptba

    Tbh, that was a very snarky remark and I have no idea what it has to do with the man up campaighn.


  • #104
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    newport2 wrote: »
    When we discuss crimes against women, such as violence, rape, etc, it is constantly emphasised (correctly in my opinion) that these crimes are hugely under-reported. What would your reaction be if the response in relation to dealing with this was:

    "women have to come forward and admit they were subjected to it. We can trot out all the stats in the world but its only when there is a human face to it that people really take notice. Its hard to empathise with a statistic."

    It's pretty much saying that if you don't report it, sure don't expect anyone to empathise with it. Come on.

    ?????



    Similar to the reason that women are reluctant to come forward about certain type of crimes. Because they won't get taken seriously, humiliation, they'll never get the perpetrator convicted, they as the victim will end up being blamed. The list is endless.

    Its got nothing to do with empathy, you can feel empathy for someone you don't know. However if men come forward and say this happened to me it puts a human face on it, it makes men realise you don't have to look a certain way or be a certain type of person in order to be a victim and that encourages more men to speak out.

    ETA it would take a brave man to go public with something so personal, some people will take the mick and try and make out he's not a real man or he's weak etc but isn't that the problem? We don't have anyone we can identify with and say if it happened to him it can happen to anyone.


  • #105
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,292 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    eviltwin wrote: »
    However if men come forward and say this happened to me it puts a human face on it, it makes men realise you don't have to look a certain way or be a certain type of person in order to be a victim and that encourages more men to speak out.

    Men do come forward but they are usually 1. Not believed, 2. Blamed or 3. Have institutional sexism to contend with (re family courts). You need to seek out the victims as the popular media generally ignores them. When have you ever seen a male (adult) rape victim dealt with in a sensitive way by a media outlet?


  • #106
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    diveout wrote: »
    Men and women have a different definition of abuse to start with. That's one reason.

    True that. A friend of mine has been seeing a girl for 2 months and she's already dressing him. It's funny how much of a difference framing makes.


  • #107
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭iptba


    GalwayGuy2 wrote: »
    @Iptba

    Tbh, that was a very snarky remark and I have no idea what it has to do with the man up campaighn.
    I have said that it was "possibly not my most informative post". Anyway, what I was thinking about was that domestic violence committed by women men isn't considered to be a problem by some with a lack of refuge facilities, training to deal with it, etc. This was discussed in this thread, with the man up campaign being an example of this (domestic violence = domestic violence committed by a man). I believe one of the reasons it is not considered a problem is because it is felt that a man should be able to make a situation safe for himself. I thought this was an example that shows that it is possible for a woman to lose it so much, it wouldn't be easy for a man to make themselves safe. Also, this woman could be presented with similar small problems in a domestic environment that could similarly set herself off. Maybe she was on drugs or maybe she has mental health problems, but similar situations could still happen in a domestic environment.


  • #108
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    iptba wrote: »
    I have said that it was "possibly not my most informative post". Anyway, what I was thinking about was that domestic violence committed by women men isn't considered to be a problem by some with a lack of refuge facilities, training to deal with it, etc. This was discussed in this thread, with the man up campaign being an example of this (domestic violence = domestic violence committed by a man). I believe one of the reasons it is not considered a problem is because it is felt that a man should be able to make a situation safe for himself. I thought this was an example that shows that it is possible for a woman to lose it so much, it wouldn't be easy for a man to make themselves safe. Also, this woman could be presented with similar small problems in a domestic environment that could similarly set herself off. Maybe she was on drugs or maybe she has mental health problems, but similar situations could still happen in a domestic environment.


    We have no idea if this woman is a domestic abuser, just an imaginary scenario in your head connects it to the Man-up campaign.

    Fair enough, didn't know it was on to tar people with the brush of what we can imagine them doing.


  • #109
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭iptba


    Candie wrote: »
    Fair enough, didn't know it was on to tar people with the brush of what we can imagine them doing.
    This woman wasn't named. She is in another country so I saw this as an anonymous example rather than the focus being on this woman.


  • #110
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    iptba wrote: »
    This woman wasn't named. She is in another country. To my mind she's effectively anonymous. The video has already been shared a lot on Facebook. She did lose it. I didn't say she committed domestic violence.

    You said there was no reason to believe she was any different in a domestic setting.

    Anyway, it's all off topic at this point. I just don't see the merit in that post at all but obviously you see some connection, however tenuous.


  • #111
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,292 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Candie wrote: »
    Anyway, it's all off topic at this point. I just don't see the merit in that post at all but obviously you see some connection, however tenuous.

    Mod note - enough pedantry. If you don't see the merit in a post then report it or ignore it. Don't drag the thread off topic.


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  • #112
    WarOnDrugs78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29 ✭WarOnDrugs78


    You could view the Man Up campaign as an attempt to reduce levels of domestic violence in our country. Or you could view it as part of a largely successful attempt by feminists to hijack a serious social problem, focus on one part of that problem (men who beat women and children) in order to further their propaganda objectives. The sad part of this is, that by persistently lying about the true nature of this problem, these "activists" are making a solution to this real and serious problem more unattainable. I believe that feminist hate-mongers are as much a threat to women and children, as they are to men. Propagating the myth that all women need to constantly fear being victimised by all men is the opposite of empowerment.


  • #113
    py2006
    Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    A lot of these campaigns, in my opinion, that focus on domestic abuse/violence seem to not only disregard male victims but they also seem to disregard other relationships such gay and lesbian. If men are the main aggressors (as suggested), well then what about the male victims of men in homosexual relationships? Also, what about the female victims in Lesbian relationships?


  • #114
    WarOnDrugs78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29 ✭WarOnDrugs78


    When did these "activists" stop campaigning against domestic violence and start campaigning against domestic "abuse"? See what they did there? In my local library, they have a massive poster, inside a locked glass case, which lists all the activities that are classed as domestic "abuse" under five headings: Emotional Abuse, Mental Abuse, Physical Abuse, Sexual Abuse, Financial Abuse. It is a repetitive and poorly written list. Apart from some types of sexual violence, women are just as capable as men of every instance of abuse listed. We have arrived at a point where any behaviour or word from a man directed towards a woman, which the woman doesn't like, can be defined as a "abuse", in some "campaigners" worldview. What I find so frightening is that this worldview has become accepted and unchallengeable by so many in the media, in politics, in the law.

    Also, these campaigns are so boring. The media used may have changed, but the underlying themes, assumptions and lies are as predictable as it gets.


  • #115
    Bafucin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 642 ✭✭✭Bafucin


    Every victim has their own particular hurdles and prejudice against them.

    It is no better or worse for male or female victims just different.


  • #116
    Bafucin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 642 ✭✭✭Bafucin


    WarOnDrugs78 wrote: »
    When did these "activists" stop campaigning against domestic violence and start campaigning against domestic "abuse"? See what they did there? In my local library, they have a massive poster, inside a locked glass case, which lists all the activities that are classed as domestic "abuse" under five headings: Emotional Abuse, Mental Abuse, Physical Abuse, Sexual Abuse, Financial Abuse. It is a repetitive and poorly written list. Apart from some types of sexual violence, women are just as capable as men of every instance of abuse listed. We have arrived at a point where any behaviour or word from a man directed towards a woman, which the woman doesn't like, can be defined as a "abuse", in some "campaigners" worldview. What I find so frightening is that this worldview has become accepted and unchallengeable by so many in the media, in politics, in the law.

    Also, these campaigns are so boring. The media used may have changed, but the underlying themes, assumptions and lies are as predictable as it gets.

    When done against men there awful too.

    You know most of the people who agree with these campaigns actually support men and are against abuse against men also.

    I think sometime people here do what they accuse everyone else of assume everyone is against them.

    Men are NOT seen as ogres by the world.

    People smile at me in the street. They say hello. I wave they wave. Men , women etc.

    You see and notice every negative thing and fail to see any positives.


  • #117
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭iptba


    Bafucin wrote: »
    You know most of the people who agree with these campaigns actually support men and are against abuse against men also.
    Domestic abuse suffered by men is often not highlighted, or not highlighted much, by domestic violence campaigns.


  • #118
    WarOnDrugs78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29 ✭WarOnDrugs78


    Bafucin wrote: »
    .....,
    You know most of the people who agree with these campaigns actually support men and are against abuse against men also
    .....

    I do not accept that these 'campaigners' support men. I do not accept that these 'campaigners' do anything other than pay minimal, grudging lip-service to the fact that some women are capable of abusing other women, children and men. The slogan they picked for their campaign has a pejorative, confrontational usage, employed in the same way you would tell someone to "stop being a sissy" or "grow a pair". A campaign that insults men's masculinity does not support men.


  • #119
    Bafucin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 642 ✭✭✭Bafucin


    WarOnDrugs78 wrote: »
    I do not accept that these 'campaigners' support men. I do not accept that these 'campaigners' do anything other than pay minimal, grudging lip-service to the fact that some women are capable of abusing other women, children and men. The slogan they picked for their campaign has a pejorative, confrontational usage, employed in the same way you would tell someone to "stop being a sissy" or "grow a pair". A campaign that insults men's masculinity does not support men.


    But why do you hate them so much? There is so much personal anger beyond the issue.

    And you are wrong about these campaigners by the way.

    I think emotional feeling is blinding you.

    I do not see it as pejorative.

    It is affirmative in confirming that masculinity in it's fullest does not include violence towards women. It is positive about masculinity.

    Or that is the way I see it myself anyway as a man.


  • #120
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭iptba


    Bafucin wrote: »
    It is affirmative in confirming that masculinity in it's fullest does not include violence towards women. It is positive about masculinity.
    I don't find statements like:
    In Ireland, nearly 8,000 women and over 3,000 children looked for support from a domestic violence support service in just one year. This is a horrific statistic.

    This means that at least 8,000 men were assaulting, raping or bullying women and children in that year.

    This is not just a horrific statistic. This is a horrific crime.
    positive about men and masculinity.

    If the equivalent was written about women, I think a lot of women would not see it as being positive about women and femininity either:
    In Ireland, nearly 8,000 men and over 3,000 children looked for support from a domestic violence support service in just one year. This is a horrific statistic.

    This means that at least 8,000 women were assaulting, raping or bullying men and children in that year.

    This is not just a horrific statistic. This is a horrific crime.


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  • #121
    Piliger
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    Bafucin wrote: »
    When done against men there awful too.

    You know most of the people who agree with these campaigns actually support men and are against abuse against men also.

    I think sometime people here do what they accuse everyone else of assume everyone is against them.

    Men are NOT seen as ogres by the world.

    People smile at me in the street. They say hello. I wave they wave. Men , women etc.

    You see and notice every negative thing and fail to see any positives.

    All easy patronising platitudes to deliver. Yet they fly in the face of the actual FACTS. The FACT that this disgusting "Manup" campaign denies even the very existence of domestic violence against men. According to them it doesn't even exist. ONLY men are the abusers.


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