How would it work in real life.

mariaalice · 17-10-2019 9:26am #1

We all can't continue to consume in the same way as we have in a planet with finite resources.

So how would our new life look, a life where we consume less ( consume less of what? ) do art ( even for those who do not have the talent or interest in art ) promote communities ( how exactly? and what does that mean? )

Andrewf20 · 17-10-2019 10:08am

The only way I see us consuming less is to make society poorer. We are too wealthy. Why repair old jeans when you can afford new ones? Who here has a puncture repair kit for a bike anymore? Too much hassle, just buy a new tyre. People driving when they could walk or cycle is very prevalent. We waste so much food as well. We are so used to a convenient way of life that it would be hard to give it up.

Growing you own food would certainly help the planet. Also, if we spent more time fixing things it would be better rather than buying a replacement. It's something I try and do myself. One of the problems is that technical diy skills are slowly getting eroded as it's less hassle for people to fix things themselves and to just get an expert in to do it. This is compounded by the fact that people are leading busier lives. You hardly see anybody out working on cars in the driveway anymore doing oil changes / brake pad replacement etc.

My mums garden strimmer was acting up before (intermittently cutting out). She brought it to a garden shop who recommended just binning it and buy a new one, maybe the motor was broken. I took a look and found that the live wire was cut through the insulation. A 15 minute repair job had it sorted and it's still working to this day.

Purgative · 17-10-2019 10:15am

I'd agree with AnfrewF. I bought some veg thing the other day in Lidl - it was grown in Vietnam, processed in south Africa and the flown to me all for 79c. Madness.

When we first moved back here we decided to grow potatoes. Digging them is back breaking. It took me an hour to fill a big bag. Lovely spuds but ....

Bob Harris · 17-10-2019 10:16am

Andrewf20 wrote: »

My mums garden strimmer was acting up before (intermittently cutting out). She brought it to a garden shop who recommended just binning it and buy a new one, maybe the motor was broken. I took a look and found that the live wire was cut through the insulation. A 15 minute repair job had it sorted and it's still working to this day.

Inspiring!

Reducing consumption dramatically would be a catastrophe for capitalism and in turn cause huge disruption worldwide. Huge unemployment and social unrest, a collapse in the social welfare system, the banking system. The list goes on.

jimgoose · 17-10-2019 10:23am

MrAbyss · 17-10-2019 10:25am

mariaalice wrote: »

We all can't continue to consume in the same way as we have in a planet with finite resources.

So how would our new life look, a life where we consume less ( consume less of what? ) do art ( even for those who do not have the talent or interest in art ) promote communities ( how exactly? and what does that mean? )

Shut down the civil service. That's the biggest waste of resources - and Extinction Rebellion protestors - on the planet.

ToddyDoody · 17-10-2019 10:27am

Bob Harris wrote: »

Inspiring!

Reducing consumption dramatically would be a catastrophe for capitalism and in turn cause huge disruption worldwide. Huge unemployment and social unrest, a collapse in the social welfare system, the banking system. The list goes on.

Because he wanted to fix a strimmer?

Capitalism works for me. I dont work for capitalism.

completedit · 17-10-2019 10:28am

It’s too hard to change, our society is geared to make people think that success is equaled to having stuff. Having stuff gives people a tangible goal that provides meaning. If we didn’t have the allure of stuff and with relgion’s waning importance, what is left to strive for?

Irish Guitarist · 17-10-2019 10:32am

With all the things being taxed and banned it baffles me that you can still buy cheap AA and AAA single use batteries. You could buy a packet of 16 batteries or something for a couple of euro but they last no length. They're some of the most wasteful products around. You don't see the government doing ad campaigns encouraging people to buy a battery charger and some rechargeable batteries though.

Another thing that pisses me off is all the different type of lithium-ion phone and camera batteries. I've bought loads of digital cameras over the years and every one requires buying a new type of battery. Many of them use the same voltage batteries and I'm sure if they were standardised and made the same shape they'd work in different camera. It isn't enough to buy a new camera from Sony though, they want another €40 or €50 for a battery too and they don't want you using it in a Canon or Nikon, nor do Canon or Nikon want you using their batteries in a Sony camera.

Bob Harris · 17-10-2019 10:32am

ToddyDoody wrote: »

Because he wanted to fix a strimmer?

Capitalism works for me. I dont work for capitalism.

If you want to reduce consumption in a meaningful way it will cause society to collapse as we know it. Then it will rebuild itself and return to it's capitalist ways.

jimgoose · 17-10-2019 10:35am

completedit wrote: »

It’s too hard to change, our society is geared to make people think that success is equaled to having stuff. Having stuff gives people a tangible goal that provides meaning. If we didn’t have the allure of stuff and with relgion’s waning importance, what is left to strive for?

We all want to live. And in large part we make our logic according to what we like. But not having attained our aim and continuing to live is cowardice. This is a thin dangerous line. To die without gaining one's aim is a dog's death and fanaticism. But there is no shame in this. This is the substance of the Way of the Samurai. If by setting one's heart right every morning and evening, one is able to live as though his body were already dead, he pains freedom in the Way. His whole life will be without blame, and he will succeed in his calling.

-- Yamamoto Tsunetomo, "Hagakure"

Mr. Incognito · 17-10-2019 10:38am

It works in practice because the small percentage of the worlds's wealthy are serviced by the vast majority of low wage workers who create all these products at basically slave labour.

Its unsustainable.

Any time there is vast inequality there is war. It's inevitable. Enjoy it while it lasts.

blinding · 17-10-2019 10:54am

Why don’t we just take all the wealth off the Super Wealthy and have a Party ?

Wibbs · 17-10-2019 11:04am

Bob Harris wrote: »

Inspiring!

Reducing consumption dramatically would be a catastrophe for capitalism and in turn cause huge disruption worldwide. Huge unemployment and social unrest, a collapse in the social welfare system, the banking system. The list goes on.

Offset by the elephant in the room for many; having fewer people, having fewer children. The single biggest impact you will have on the environment isn't buying a new battery car(ever four effin years. :rolleyes:) or growing your own spuds, the biggest impact is having a kid. Lowering the world's population by half would make a massive difference to the environment and the waste we produce.

The problem is along with the calls for saving the planet, we're also being told usually by the same people we must increase the birthrate. Even here in Ireland, a country with the highest birthrate in the EU and easily repacing ourselves we have government types telling us we need more people and they will even import said people from third world crapholes to fill this apparent need.

It's all bollocks of course. More people is just to feed the current over consumption economic model. More people to make the crap cheaply and more people to buy the crap. And a tiny few get rich from it.

Bob Harris · 17-10-2019 11:10am

Purgative wrote: »

I'd agree with AnfrewF. I bought some veg thing the other day in Lidl - it was grown in Vietnam, processed in south Africa and the flown to me all for 79c. Madness.

When we first moved back here we decided to grow potatoes. Digging them is back breaking. It took me an hour to fill a big bag. Lovely spuds but ....

Yes, but now they give you biodegradable plastic bags to put it in.
Cheap, healthy and good for the environment. Win win win!

Wibbs · 17-10-2019 11:12am

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

With all the things being taxed and banned it baffles me that you can still buy cheap AA and AAA single use batteries. You could buy a packet of 16 batteries or something for a couple of euro but they last no length. They're some of the most wasteful products around. You don't see the government doing ad campaigns encouraging people to buy a battery charger and some rechargeable batteries though.

Another thing that pisses me off is all the different type of lithium-ion phone and camera batteries. I've bought loads of digital cameras over the years and every one requires buying a new type of battery. Many of them use the same voltage batteries and I'm sure if they were standardised and made the same shape they'd work in different camera. It isn't enough to buy a new camera from Sony though, they want another €40 or €50 for a battery too and they don't want you using it in a Canon or Nikon, nor do Canon or Nikon want you using their batteries in a Sony camera.

+1. In the early days of digital cameras many took either AA disposables, or Lion rechargables in the same AA format. But that was clearly eating into profits, so that had to go to be replaced by different form factor batteries. It also made it less convenient because if your Lion battery went flat you could throw in a couple of AA's to keep it going.

Look at inkjet printers. Among some of the entry level models, it is cheaper to dump the whole thing in the bin after the inks run out because the replacement ink cartridges are the same price or more expenisive than buying a new printer.

The "right to repair" should be pushed for and in some quarters it is. "Lifetime" devices which are anything but does nothing for our carbon footprint. Companies changing parts every few months is designed to make them unrepairable. Cars are a good example of this. They are purposely designed to run well for a period of time, backed up by dealer only warranties for when they don't and then to be uneconomical to repair. This is madness, especially when we have had the tech since at least the 90's to make cars that could last far far longer and be easier to repair. Sticking batteries or fuel cells into them will do nothing for this wasteful product cycle. It may even make things worse as marketing will convince people they need the latest Car 2.1 and they could become more like IT devices to be replaced entirely every few years.

Badly Drunk Boy · 17-10-2019 11:12am

Andrewf20 wrote: »

My mums garden strimmer was acting up before (intermittently cutting out). She brought it to a garden shop who recommended just binning it and buy a new one, maybe the motor was broken. I took a look and found that the live wire was cut through the insulation. A 15 minute repair job had it sorted and it's still working to this day.

The problem is that everything is made to fail after a certain (short) amount of time, and when the obsolescence is in-built, people accept that and scramble to get the next upgrade, whether it's a phone or a telly or whatever.

I'm guilty of this to a certain degree but being a bit of a hoarder, I usually don't dump stuff if I feel it can be salvaged. Last week I bought a few puncture repair kits so this weekend, I'll be patching up the tubes that I just replaced rather than repaired.

Purgative wrote: »

When we first moved back here we decided to grow potatoes. Digging them is back breaking. It took me an hour to fill a big bag. Lovely spuds but ....

Ah, but the satisfaction of knowing that your hard work got them onto the plate would have made them even tastier!

LirW · 17-10-2019 11:15am

It is engrained in all of us, we are comfortable and our values shifted accordingly, damaging important factors to live a more sustainable life.
Trades are slowly recovering from their bad reputation as only perspective of simpletons and school leavers.
We were taught and teach our kids that it is all about monetary and academical success, otherwise you'll stay behind forever not taking into account their natural talents and abilities that might be useful to live more sustainably.

And the worst thing is we all can't bring ourselves to telling our kids that from here on it is going to get tougher socially and everything we told them is not going to apply in the near future anymore.
We as society have no real interest in changing because it would be hard work.
But when it finally comes down to it I have my doubts that all the accountants, HR people and business graduates are going to change the world when our survival comes down to work together and scale down in everything we used to love.

jimgoose · 17-10-2019 11:18am

Wibbs wrote: »

...Cars are a good example of this. They are purposely designed to run well for a period of time, backed up by dealer only warranties for when they don't and then to be uneconomical to repair. This is madness, especially when we have had the tech since at least the 90's to make cars that could last far far longer and be easier to repair. Sticking batteries or fuel cells into them will do nothing for this wasteful product cycle. It may even make things worse as marketing will convince people they need the latest Car 2.1 and they could become more like IT devices to be replaced entirely every few years.

Ever wonder why big trucks run for millions of miles with very little trouble, and those huge Caterpillar machines typically serve for decades, with Cat supporting a "rip out/repair/refurbish" service? It's because commercial operators don't put up with the sort of bollocks outlined in your rather decent post.

Bob Harris · 17-10-2019 11:20am

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

It works in practice because the small percentage of the worlds's wealthy are serviced by the vast majority of low wage workers who create all these products at basically slave labour.

Its unsustainable.

Any time there is vast inequality there is war. It's inevitable. Enjoy it while it lasts.

I've read a few times that if all of the world's wealth was equally distributed it would take only a couple of generations to find it's way back into the hands it was taken from.

Wibbs · 17-10-2019 11:23am

Badly Drunk Boy wrote: »

The problem is that everything is made to fail after a certain (short) amount of time, and when the obsolescence is in-built, people accept that and scramble to get the next upgrade, whether it's a phone or a telly or whatever.

I noticed that with fridges of all things. The one I grew up with in the family home lasted my childhood and well into early adulthood. The folks then bought a new one, which lasted ten years, the next made it to six. The one I have is about six years old, but is creaking already. Washing machines have had a similar trajectory. Last a few years and crap out with an error code and the part required is either no longer available, or costs nearly as much as a new machine(or more when you put "labour" into fitting it. A few bolts and away you go for the most part). How's that work then? It's bollocks.

Though I have the tumble drier my folks bought in 1975 and it still works. Needed a few fuses and belts down the years and the timer is a bit fecked, but it works. I would bet the farm that if I bought a new one there's no way in hell it would last 40 years. Now I can somewhat understand IT stuff like phones, computers and even tellies as they've evolved going obsolete, but keeping food cool and washing and drying clothes? Utter bollocks.

jimgoose · 17-10-2019 11:28am

Wibbs wrote: »

...Now I can somewhat understand IT stuff like phones, computers and even tellies as they've evolved going obsolete, but keeping food cool and washing and drying clothes? Utter bollocks.

There is definitely a deliberate, concerted effort to make such devices unrepairable and, in furtherance, unupgradeable. "Smart" TVs are a good example of this. I much prefer to use half-decent, non-"smart", full-HD LED TVs with a handful of USB and HDMI ports and add, upgrade and rip out my own "smarts" as suits me.

Wibbs · 17-10-2019 11:32am

jimgoose wrote: »

Ever wonder why big trucks run for millions of miles with very little trouble, and those huge Caterpillar machines typically serve for decades, with Cat supporting a "rip out/repair/refurbish" service? It's because commercial operators don't put up with the sort of bollocks outlined in your rather decent post.

Exactly. Of course they can make cars run for decades, but the economic model of consumerist replacement won't allow it. Hell, I run a car that's 21 years old. It's been as reliable as granite, when driven easy returns over 40 Mpg and needs feck all by way of repairs and when it did the stuff was available and cheap enough. Way cheaper than current parts in the main and far easier to replace and fit parts, with none of this it needs to be plugged into a main dealer's computer to authorise the part sh1te). The problem is now some parts aren't available and that will get worse, unless they do a Mercedes and start remanufacturing parts(at a price premium) for older cars. Never mind that other forces are ranged agin you running an older car. Insurance can be a nightmare for a start, unless you go "classic" which requires a new(er) car as the main vehicle. It's as if "they" want to force people to buy new. Yet as far as carbon footprints go I'm way ahead of some knit your own muesli vegan sandal wearer who has bought a new Prius every few years and is now in a second gen Nissan Leaf thinking he's saving the penguins.

jimgoose · 17-10-2019 11:34am

Wibbs wrote: »

...as far as carbon footprints go I'm way ahead of some knit your own muesli vegan sandal wearer who has bought a new Prius every few years and is now in a second gen Nissan Leaf thinking he's saving the penguins.

I had to scrap my 20-year-old Jaaaaag at the start of this year, and now I drive a 2011 Focus turbodiesel that does 60mpg and requires no solid jade nor Unobtanium neither!

Wibbs · 17-10-2019 11:35am

Bob Harris wrote: »

I've read a few times that if all of the world's wealth was equally distributed it would take only a couple of generations to find it's way back into the hands it was taken from.

And it's a stupid theory as it is completely unprovable. Generally only believed by the daft like libertarians or the naive, or dumb.

Wibbs · 17-10-2019 11:41am

jimgoose wrote: »

I had to scrap my 20-year-old Jaaaaag at the start of this year, and now I drive a 2011 Focus turbodiesel that does 60mpg and requires no solid jade nor Unobtanium neither!

aye J, but it's only 8 years old, when and if it gets to 20, watch how hard parts will be to source then. That said the motoring landscape will have changed a lot in the next couple of decades.

Bob Harris · 17-10-2019 11:41am

Wibbs wrote: »

And it's a stupid theory as it is completely unprovable. Generally only believed by the daft like libertarians or the naive, or dumb.

Certainly not provable but common sense would tell you that if it happened within a few generations the wealth distribution would change significantly.

Your Face · 17-10-2019 11:42am

I'm not saying a population cull is a good idea, I'm just saying if they were to go away, would it be that bad?
Obviously not me of course I'm much too good looking.
God I'm so sexy.
It's ridiculous.

jimgoose · 17-10-2019 11:44am

Wibbs wrote: »

aye J, but it's only 8 years old, when and if it gets to 20, watch how hard parts will be to source then. That said the motoring landscape will have changed a lot in the next couple of decades.

Ah, I'll change 'er again sometime within the next 12 years. :pac:

biko · 17-10-2019 11:44am

We need to stop the emerging middle classes in India, China and Africa.
It's not sustainable for them to consume in that way.

jimgoose · 17-10-2019 11:45am

biko wrote: »

We need to stop the emerging middle classes in India, China and Africa.
It's not sustainable for them to consume in that way.

Right. What are we talking, tacnukes?

How would it work in real life.

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