Deaths/Records St. Ita's Portrane

lottpaul · 02-08-2013 3:14pm #1

Just have a general question about accessing information for a former patient in St. Ita's Hospital Portrane (or similar Hospitals/Homes). Can records be accessed and by whom? Am just talking about general things like dates of admission, death etc. Have recently discovered a great uncle was a patient there and we have no information on him at all. Closest surviving relation is his niece - now in her mid 80s and a bit forgetful- who can't recall exact dates etc. Thinks he went there in the 1940s? and died in the mid 1960s so not on familysearch etc. Not buried there we think but no name on any family headstone.

Would council cemetery records be made accessible to great nieces/nephews or is the link too far out?
Many thanks.

pinkypinky · 05-08-2013 1:22pm

Your best bet is to ring them and ask. They'll be able to set you straight, even if they can't give you the information.

I know a direct ancestor of mine was in Grangegorman and I am still waiting to gain access - I had to prove the connection with certificates, and now it's a question of them finding her record - also from the 1940s.

Medical records are often sealed for 100 years after the last entry, especially for mental health issues.

lottpaul · 05-08-2013 1:47pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

Your best bet is to ring them and ask. They'll be able to set you straight, even if they can't give you the information.

Many thanks. I thought St. Ita's was closed? but I suppose the records must be somewhere. Will get on the phone tomorrow.

pinkypinky · 05-08-2013 1:50pm

Afaik, they're not taking in new patients but people are still there. Their radio station is still broadcasting!

Hermy · 05-08-2013 10:38pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

Your best bet is to ring them and ask. They'll be able to set you straight, even if they can't give you the information.

I know a direct ancestor of mine was in Grangegorman and I am still waiting to gain access - I had to prove the connection with certificates, and now it's a question of them finding her record - also from the 1940s.

Medical records are often sealed for 100 years after the last entry, especially for mental health issues.

Hi Pinky, Would you know if something similar would apply to St. Josephs, Portland Row?

pinkypinky · 06-08-2013 12:49pm

Hermy wrote: »

Hi Pinky, Would you know if something similar would apply to St. Josephs, Portland Row?

Not definitely but I would imagine that similar rules apply in all these cases. I also had to do the same to get hold of my g-grandfather's Irish army record. In both cases, I am a direct descendant so don't know how difficult it would be if you're researching an indirect one.

P. Breathnach · 07-08-2013 10:44pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

...
I know a direct ancestor of mine was in Grangegorman and I am still waiting to gain access - I had to prove the connection with certificates, and now it's a question of them finding her record - also from the 1940s....

Herself had some success with Grangegorman records last year. She also learned that she had been very lucky in her timing, as the records were about to be boxed up and transferred to the National Archives.

The immediate task is the conservation of the records. They need considerable work. This means that they will not be available to researchers. It appears that when and where they become available has not yet been decided.

pinkypinky · 08-08-2013 2:37pm

P. Breathnach - that's very interesting. I actually sent my request in about 3 years ago and was called by some volunteer group who were indexing the records a couple of months later. They said it was a question of find my person's record, rather than if it was there, because there was no order on how things were archived. :eek:

Jellybaby1 · 09-08-2013 3:40pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

P. Breathnach - that's very interesting. I actually sent my request in about 3 years ago and was called by some volunteer group who were indexing the records a couple of months later. They said it was a question of find my person's record, rather than if it was there, because there was no order on how things were archived. :eek:

Pinky, do you know what agency/group had been organised to do the indexing?

pinkypinky · 11-08-2013 6:06pm

They were a Grangegorman specific group, some former employees - no website, or anything.

Jellybaby1 · 19-09-2016 12:21am

Thanks to the new records I think I've found a relative who died in Portrane.

Is there any new information on the archiving as yet? Also does anyone know where the patients would have been buried?

lottpaul · 19-09-2016 6:35am

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Thanks to the new records I think I've found a relative who died in Portrane. Is there any new information on the archiving as yet? Also does anyone know where the patients would have been buried?

I found the death cert for my relative in the new records and noticed that the informant for some of the deaths there was another "inmate" rather than a staff member etc which struck me as a little odd, but I presume it just means "present at death".
By sheer luck I found from a very elderly neighbour (now deceased) a few years ago that when he died he was buried in an old family grave but with little fuss and just close family present. There is no headstone. The stigma of mental illness I assumed but she said no, he was a bachelor and people didn't have much money to spare for headstones for elderly single uncles in those days!

I presume that if a relative didn't claim the body/couldn't be contacted etc there has to be a burial ground in the hospital?

pinkypinky · 19-09-2016 10:04am

I reiterate the above point: call the hospital directly and ask. They'll at least be able to tell you the policy.

KildareFan · 19-09-2016 4:41pm

I think 'inmate' refers to a member of staff, not a fellow patient. The term appears frequently in records I'm looking at. Another term for and informant based in an institution/hospital is 'Occupier' who appears to be more senior.

pinkypinky · 19-09-2016 5:04pm

No, it's definitely another patient in the institution. If it is staff, it will say nurse/occupier or whatever.

Jellybaby1 · 19-09-2016 9:54pm

My record says the informant was an 'inmate' and I would automatically take that as another patient, and online dictionaries agree with this. Thanks Pinky, I should have re-read the thread more thoroughly, I will contact them direct.

KildareFan · 19-09-2016 10:31pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

No, it's definitely another patient in the institution. If it is staff, it will say nurse/occupier or whatever.

I have found over 20 records where the informant was described as inmate - I find it strange that a random patient would have had the information on name, address, age, occupation, marital status, and cause of death sufficient to convince the registrar that they were qualified to report the deaths of several patients, or why a hospital would give the information to patients who would have to tootle down to the registry office to register the deaths.

See link http://bit.ly/2cBR01i this page record eight deaths from hospitals in 1941, all informants are inmates:
Temple St Hospital, T Hall 4 records
Mater Hospital J Cleary 4 records

and here's a page for 1942, with deaths from the Mater and Temple St registered by J Cleary and T Hall, inmates of the respective hospitals http://bit.ly/2dal43f

pinkypinky · 19-09-2016 10:59pm

It's not that the person is a randomer: they were present at the death and confirming the event. I'm sure the deceased's file would be checked for the rest of the information.

tabbey · 21-09-2016 11:25pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

No, it's definitely another patient in the institution. If it is staff, it will say nurse/occupier or whatever.

In the days when institutions had less staff, and many longterm patients, who did not have a lot wrong with them, these patients/inmates were often used for running errands, and many other chores. It was little more than slavery really.

However there do seem to be some instances where "occupier / inmate" was used without distinction, or that is my suspicion.

pinkypinky · 22-09-2016 9:19am

Yes, and mentally ill patients were seen as able-bodied so they were given chores as part of their treatment. My great-grandmother was in Grangegorman but is remembered as doing work there and having had keys to the place.

KildareFan · 22-09-2016 10:18am

On looking at all records on a page, I have seen a batch of deaths in the same hospital have been registered by the same 'inmate'. The records are for deaths in hospitals, not psychiatric institutions, and the same person registers batches of deaths - for example, O'Cleary in the Mater Hospital Dublin and Hall in Temple St Children's hospital both in 1940, then a year later 1941. I have seen the use of 'Inmate SRN' in another case - so that was a nurse. Whatever about patients in psychiatric institutions I can't see how a patient in an acute hospital would have been given the task of registering a batch of deaths.

Hermy · 22-09-2016 10:51am

Does the informant register the death or is that merely the person who was present when death occurred?

pinkypinky · 22-09-2016 11:16am

I believe it is the latter, Hermy.

KildareFan · 22-09-2016 9:37pm

I registered the death of my uncle in a nursing home, even though I wasn't present when he died - no one was with him. I was also informant for an aunt's death, although that time I was present at her death. In both cases, as a relative I had the status to act as informant, I also had to present the death certificate signed by the doctor who gave cause of death.

tabbey · 23-09-2016 9:29am

When I registered the death of my father,who died in a nursing home, I had not seen him until at least an hour after the death.
When my mother died, my sister registered her death, but I had the task of identifying her body for the Garda sergeant at the mortuary. We had found her dead in the bed in the morning.
During my career in the health service, I had occasion to register the death of one individual in my hospital, but I had no role in registering the deaths of patients who died in my care, even the occasions where I was present at death.

Most people have no people to witness their deaths, they are found subsequently dead in their beds, whether at home or in hospital.

Looking at death registrations, some informants are relatives, or a person from the hospital. Others are present at death, who may or may not be related. Sometimes a coroner or a police person or a third party registers the death.

In a hospital setting, the registration is merely a task to be undertaken by somebody convenient, a social worker, a community nurse, the ambulance driver, or a clerical officer on lunch break. A messenger job basically.

CiDeRmAn · 22-04-2018 7:51pm

There are files of all the staff and residents of St Ita's hospital but they have all been archived.
And I would imagine it would be hard to find such details just over the phone, as they have no idea who you are.
Most such information would be accessible via an FOI request, and the relevant book can be retrieved from the archive building, which is on the grounds.

2012paddy2012 · 14-03-2019 12:43pm

KildareFan wrote: »

I registered the death of my uncle in a nursing home, even though I wasn't present when he died - no one was with him. I was also informant for an aunt's death, although that time I was present at her death. In both cases, as a relative I had the status to act as informant, I also had to present the death certificate signed by the doctor who gave cause of death.

Lads sorry for dropping in here , I was wondering if anyone knows how to vote the 3 part documentary series about st ita,that was shown on rte some time back ? Interested in history of place. Thks

Deaths/Records St. Ita's Portrane

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