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Not moving home to teach because of... job insecurity

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  • 15-04-2019 2:27pm
    #1
    gaiscioch
    Registered Users Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭


    The most read story on The Irish Times today is this, and the absence of job security seems to be by far the dominant reason Irish teachers aren't coming back. I would have always expected job insecurity to have been part of the searching for a job process, but it seems in very many countries governments structure the school system so that job security is given from the start, rather than 5 or 10 years into the job searching process. This is increasingly undermining the ability of the state to attract people into teaching here. They could always change the recruitment system into a centralised one, or make some other change to address this issue?

    ‘Ireland will not welcome you back. Talk of jobs is fake news’: Emigrant teachers have their say. Teachers needed to fill the gap but tax-free pay and lifestyle abroad can be decisive
    Minister for Education Joe McHugh is due to travel to the United Arab Emirates in the coming months to try to convince Irish teachers working in the Middle East to move back to Ireland, in an attempt to address teacher shortages here. This follows a recent trip to China, where the Minister also spoke to Irish teachers about coming home to work...

    That's a fair bit of travelling from the minister, although I strongly suspect from the continuation of all this insufferable box-ticking that has consumed the jobs of actual teachers that there was a more important reason for the visit than trying to attract Irish teachers home (e.g. attract Chinese students who are willing to spend €30,000 per year studying in Ireland).

    Some reflections from the various teachers which stood out, again and again. Job security is the obvious one. They can see it's simply not there. Before they even come home to have enough experience to appreciate the consequences of the cultural change in the job from teacher to administrator:
    If I return, it may be five years of insecure job prospects, which I cannot afford. At the moment I am pregnant with my first child. The child care in Denmark is absolutely perfect for working families. It is subsidised by the government and tax breaks are given. But it pains me that my children will not learn Irish. I often get frustrated at our Government’s lack of effort when it comes to promoting the language. But seeing as permanent jobs are rare in Ireland these days it’s financially pointless for me to come home.

    ...but since I have left, I have seen what other countries offer, and what the Irish education system lacks. It lacks funding, support, trust and security. In the case of security, this is in particular for young teachers.
    My school needs the teachers as we are a disadvantaged school, but due to numbers of intake, and being one child short, a staff member was lost. It is rare that this happens overseas.
    The cost of living and particularly rent in Ireland is far too high (even in my time in Hong Kong I found better deals than in Dublin) and unless the housing crisis is sorted, what reason do I have to leave my comfortable apartment in Ho Chi Minh City? On top of that, taxes are still unattractive to anyone returning to Ireland. LPT and USC are the obvious ones, but there are a slew of tiny charges that build up that make saving money in Ireland very difficult indeed.

    Being an ESL teacher, opportunities are understandably limited in an English speaking country such as Ireland. Job security would be an incentive to bring me back, instead of heading home to a language school that could collapse at any moment, leaving wages unpaid.

    ... but I worry about what is ahead of me. Although my experience abroad has been overwhelmingly positive, the lack of job security in Ireland and ability to plan for the future are my main concerns when I move home in July.
    I trained to teach in England and graduated in 2000 as a teacher of Economics and Business Studies. I taught for four years in England, 10 in Borneo and I am in my fifth year in Saigon. The only reason I would not return to Ireland to teach is that my years of experience abroad would not be recognised by the Irish teaching authorities, and this would leave me with an inadequate income.


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    #2
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Jeez he didn't need to head out to get told the obvious.

    Usual..

    Teaching Council treating people as incompetent unless they fork out the dosh to be 'assessed'.

    Part time Jobs / Security

    Pay

    Pension


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    #3
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    Imagine the amount of money being wasted on these junkets? You could probably pay a few teachers to come home with the cost of the Minister's holidays.


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    #4
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Hours not jobs.


    If a person spends 18 months training in Templemore they have a full time permanent job as a Garda.

    If a person gets a nursing degree ( I know the conditions are crap) they can get a full time job.

    If a person spends 5-6 years training to be a teacher, they can spend years moving from post to pillar covering maternity leaves and on part time hours, jumping through hoops like a performing seal doing lots of free extra curricular stuff in the hope that a few extra hours will be thrown their way the following year.


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    #5
    Blaizes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 809 ✭✭✭Blaizes


    Yes a part time gig here plus lack of job security. People reinterviewing for their own hours and other misfortunes going for same interview just to make up numbers when the job may already be gone madness! Add in high rents and high cost of living generally and who indeed could blame them for staying away. Change is so badly needed.


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    #6
    emilymemily
    Registered Users Posts: 343 ✭✭emilymemily


    Not to mention schools and educational centers messing teachers around. I was recently offered two separate roles in an education center, one a sick leave cover, the other a long term position. Accepted both straight away only to be told a week before starting the long term position was given to somebody else (after id accepted) and I was given the scraps (the short term, one hour a week contract).
    No doubt the long term role was given to somebody known to the employer.
    Ive traveled to two interviews this year in which the job was already gone - I knew this upon signing in at interview as the only other name signed was a teacher who I knew and had been previously working in the role as a sub.
    The lack of security and regulation in FE teaching is another issue which is greatly undermined.
    I cant imagine why any teachers in secure roles abroad would risk coming home when so many of us are considering leaving due to lack of opportunity and basic respect.


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    #7
    mtoutlemonde
    Registered Users Posts: 2,120 ✭✭✭mtoutlemonde


    emilymemily wrote: »
    Not to mention schools and educational centers messing teachers around. I was recently offered two separate roles in an education center, one a sick leave cover, the other a long term position. Accepted both straight away only to be told a week before starting the long term position was given to somebody else (after id accepted) and I was given the scraps (the short term, one hour a week contract).
    No doubt the long term role was given to somebody known to the employer.
    Ive traveled to two interviews this year in which the job was already gone - I knew this upon signing in at interview as the only other name signed was a teacher who I knew and had been previously working in the role as a sub.
    The lack of security and regulation in FE teaching is another issue which is greatly undermined.
    I cant imagine why any teachers in secure roles abroad would risk coming home when so many of us are considering leaving due to lack of opportunity and basic respect.

    Have you contacted your union? Had you a written offer of work? I would not let this go if you can prove the job was offered to you before another candidate or shoe-in in this instance.


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    #8
    emilymemily
    Registered Users Posts: 343 ✭✭emilymemily


    mtoutlemonde wrote: »
    Have you contacted your union? Had you a written offer of work? I would not let this go if you can prove the job was offered to you before another candidate or shoe-in in this instance.

    It wasn't in writing, confirmed twice over a phone call and accepted over the phone. Ill be more careful next time.


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    #9
    mtoutlemonde
    Registered Users Posts: 2,120 ✭✭✭mtoutlemonde


    emilymemily wrote: »
    It wasn't in writing, confirmed twice over a phone call and accepted over the phone. Ill be more careful next time.

    That's terrible! This kind of behaviour does not surprise me from an ETB though.


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    #10
    ethical
    Registered Users Posts: 719 ✭✭✭ethical


    I'm not one bit surprised!
    I suppose ,for starters ,give the present Minister a little credit,he is more interested already than the previous waste of space excuse for a minister.
    It is customary and expected for teachers in Ireland to spend several years on the circuit before any sort of job security is reached.I spent 6 years on the circuit myself,mind you 4 of these were spent overseas and then a few more in Ireland when returning.........and this is the sad part,some of my friends who did stay around and stuck it out ,took just as long to get sorted as I did.I consider myself lucky in that I was actually working overseas while my friends were suffering at home with a few hours here,a few hours there,bar -tending,child-minding etc to eke out a living.
    The very sad part is the "culture" around recruitment of teachers! As pointed out by fellow Boardsie " Rainbowtrout " in a previous post,a garda goes to Templemore and has a permanent job after graduating,a nurse can get a job (but many choose to go overseas for better conditions), but a teacher has to spend many years doing the rounds and you know I reckon a lot of it is down to the recruitment methods used by the ETBs and CEIST schools.
    Its shocking to see the way these organisations work,I even have it from a very high officer in a Teaching Union that these "Untouchables" are just that,untouchable.Unions are sh1t when it comes to doing anything about this but they realise it goes on very regularly!
    How dare an ETB waste taxpayers money (this used to be a crime in Ireland once upon a time),with the same retired lackeys sitting on interview boards,with a name in their top pocket of who is going to get the job. Some of the interview Boards are "unqualified",not even educated to Leaving Cert standards ,Gombeen politicians collecting their money.Its already decided,but of course the "jobs for the boys brigade" want to collect their stipends and will go through the motions to collect same.Under the Freedom of Information Act its possible to see how much is wasted,mind you it is fairly well buried under " miscellaneous" in some accounts.
    If its possible ,do go abroad and widen your horizons,not possible for everyone due to family ties etc and if you do come back be ready for a fight......you will get there in the end but the journey will be a very scenic one in most cases!
    Its past time the recruitment process was looked at though!


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    #11
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Let's just get one thing clear.

    They aren't looking for teachers to return to take up full time proper jobs.

    They just want enough subs to chew up and spit out to keep the show on the road.


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    #12
    Blaizes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 809 ✭✭✭Blaizes


    emilymemily wrote: »
    It wasn't in writing, confirmed twice over a phone call and accepted over the phone. Ill be more careful next time.

    Have read about mess up like this happening over on vtf. Disgraceful carry on messing people about like this. But it just seems there is no respect for teachers and this stuff seeems to be going on forever. If you are without ties and go can abroad and teach it could be a very good option for you more job security, proper pay and being treated like a professional.


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    #13
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    evolving_doors wrote: »
    Let's just get one thing clear.

    They aren't looking for teachers to return to take up full time proper jobs.

    They just want enough subs to chew up and spit out to keep the show on the road.

    Who is they?


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    #14
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    salonfire wrote: »
    Who is they?

    The Illuminati salonfire


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    #15
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    evolving_doors wrote: »
    The Illuminati salonfire


    All this pent up frustration and ire .. justifiable so in this case.

    But to who should it be directed to?

    Obviously by your flippant remarks, you can't provide a straight answer.
    It is schools, ETBs, Boards Of Management that run the schools in Ireland, not Joe McHugh, but the much lauded civil service we are supposedly blessed to have.

    But since it is the time of year, no doubt it will be McHugh that will be in the firing line for the shots. Even though he is not involved in running of the schools, nor would people want direct interference from the Gov't in schools.


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    #16
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    salonfire wrote: »
    All this pent up frustration and ire .. justifiable so in this case.

    But to who should it be directed to?

    Obviously by your flippant remarks, you can't provide a straight answer.
    It is schools, ETBs, Boards Of Management that run the schools in Ireland, not Joe McHugh, but the much lauded civil service we are supposedly blessed to have.

    But since it is the time of year, no doubt it will be McHugh that will be in the firing line for the shots. Even though he is not involved in running of the schools, nor would people want direct interference from the Gov't in schools.

    Keep up fella, the protagonist and his accompanying junket mandarins are referred to in post #1. Which followed on from a previous press release https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/education/bring-them-home-minister-plans-uae-trip-to-tackle-teacher-crisis-37962596.html
    That's who 'they' are.

    If you knew anything about govt involvement you'd know that the dept can easily change the requirements to teach and having service abroad recognised etc. They're issued in the form of circulars. So no they don't 'run schools' but they dictate the terms of entry, progress, pay etc.

    But no doubt it's all the teacher and unions fault right?


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    #17
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    evolving_doors wrote: »
    Keep up fella, the protagonist and his accompanying junket mandarins are referred to in post #1. Which followed on from a previous press release https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/education/bring-them-home-minister-plans-uae-trip-to-tackle-teacher-crisis-37962596.html
    That's who 'they' are.

    If you knew anything about govt involvement you'd know that the dept can easily change the requirements to teach and having service abroad recognised etc. They're issued in the form of circulars. So no they don't 'run schools' but they dictate the terms of entry, progress, pay etc.

    But no doubt it's all the teacher and unions fault right?

    Ah, so the old mantra of blaming the Government continues I see.

    All the while, principals, civil servants and those whose job it is to run the Education System continue to pickup their handsome salaries, increases and pensions safely tucked away from the anger of the public and teachers.

    Was there a circular from the Minister to break-up jobs into piece-meal contracts?


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    #18
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    salonfire wrote: »
    Ah, so the old mantra of blaming the Government continues I see.

    All the while, principals, civil servants and those whose job it is to run the Education System continue to pickup their handsome salaries, increases and pensions safely tucked away from the anger of the public and teachers.

    Was there a circular from the Minister to break-up jobs into piece-meal contracts?

    Well ok then, you're obviously going to abdicate department influence then.

    What do you propose schools do to get teachers back... given that all the responsibility lies with them (according to yourself). And anyway if the department are powerless... then why is Joe McHugh going over there?


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