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Minimum spend of €10 in order to use debit card @ The Academy?

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1246

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    #92
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,875 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    _Brian wrote: »
    I avoid business that add this charge.

    Went into local filling station for a drum of petrol for lawnmower, came to €7.

    I only had card and they had introduced this stupid €10 min spend, conversation as follows.

    Sorry €10 min spend on card

    Sorry, I’ve no cash.

    Buy something else.

    No I don’t want anything else

    Why not do the lotto?

    I don’t do the lotto.

    Well it’s €10 min spend

    Grand, where do I leave back the petrol ?

    What ?, you can’t

    Ok so, I’ll come back tomorrow and pay?

    No, we don’t give credit

    I’m not looking for credit I want to pay but you won’t take the money!

    Can you wait and let these other people go so we can sort this out ?

    No it’s my turn!

    Fine, I’ll put it through for €7




    You do realize that a dick thing to do & you would be totally in the wrong.



    Cards aren't legal tender. Cash is legal tender but not cards. Regardless what signs are in the shop they do not have to accept your card at all. They do have to accept cash


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    #93
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,630 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    That isn't what Legal Tender means


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    #94
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,875 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    L1011 wrote: »
    That isn't what Legal Tender means


    It's exactly what legal tender is. The meaning hasn't changed in the last 40 years or so. Our currency has changed but not the meaning of legal tender


    Official currency

    The euro is the single currency shared by European Union countries that have adopted the euro. Some EU countries do not participate (Denmark and the United Kingdom through 'opt outs') or have not adopted the euro yet because the convergence criteria to join the euro are not met.
    Official currencies, including the euro, consist in a monetary system designed and controlled by a state or, as regards the euro, by supranational structures.
    Within the euro area, only the euro has the status of legal tender. Article 128 (1) TFEU lays down the legal tender status of euro banknotes, and article 11 of Regulation EC/974/98 does so with regard to euro coins. This means that in the absence of an agreement of the means of payment, the creditor is obliged to accept a payment made in euro which subsequently discharges the debtor from his payment obligation.
    Yet, during transactions, contractual parties are free to use other official foreign currencies with legal tender status in the state of issuance (e.g. the pound sterling or the US dollar). The same applies to privately issued money like local exchange trading systems (e.g. voucher-based payment systems in certain communities) or virtual currency schemes (e.g. Bitcoin). Although these are not official currencies and have no legal tender status, parties can agree to use them as private money without prejudice to the official currency. In that way, these forms of private money can be considered as economic assets. Private money transactions and business are subject to the general rules of commodity trade such as taxation law, business law, anti-money laundering law or others. However, they are not official currencies and they are not governed by monetary law.


    Notes & coins are legal tender. Cards are not legal tender


    It's been many decades since I sat down in 2nd year with a commerce book but I do remember that Irish Punts was legal tender at the time. You always have the right to refuse admission (a transaction/ sale/ customer) but if you accepted a the sale then Punts was legal tender. You can't refuse legal tender. They even went into how many pennies, shillings etc you had to accept. You might have had to accept 100 pennies but there was a cut off point. You didn't have to accept 1000 pennies.



    Cards are not legal tender. Shop can accept a sale & must accept Euro coins & notes as part of the sale but does not have to accept cards


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    #95
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,630 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Legal tender is only a concept in debt payments, not retail transactions. Shops are not required to take cash

    Antique school books are not a reliable source of information!


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    #96
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,875 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    L1011 wrote: »
    Legal tender is only a concept in debt payments, not retail transactions. Shops are not required to take cash




    I'm bewildered why you'd take such a stance.


    I suggest doing some research on the subject. You'll find you are mistaken


    Perhaps you have a link?


    Legal tender is a medium of payment recognized by a legal system to be valid for meeting a financial obligation.[1] Paper currency and coins are common forms of legal tender in many countries. Legal tender is variously defined in different jurisdictions. Formally, it is anything which when offered in payment extinguishes the debt. Thus, personal cheques, credit cards, and similar non-cash methods of payment are not usually legal tender. The law does not relieve the debt obligation until payment is tendered. Coins and banknotes are usually defined as legal tender. Some jurisdictions may forbid or restrict payment made other than by legal tender. For example, such a law might outlaw the use of foreign coins and bank notes or require a license to perform financial transactions in a foreign currency.
    Generally, designation of a particular form of money as legal tender means "that the designated money is valid payment for all debts unless there is a specific agreement to the contrary".[2] In some jurisdictions legal tender can be refused as payment if no debt exists prior to the time of payment (where the obligation to pay may arise at the same time as the offer of payment). For example, vending machines and transport staff do not have to accept the largest denomination of banknote. Shopkeepers may reject large banknotes: this is covered by the legal concept known as invitation to treat.I][URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_clarify"]clarification needed[/URL][/I Under the law, United States money as identified above is a valid and legal offer of payment for antecedent debts when tendered to a creditor. By contrast, federal statutes do not require that someone who is not a pre-existing creditor must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services. Private businesses may formulate their own policies on whether to accept cash unless state law requires otherwise.[3][4]
    The right, in many jurisdictions, of a trader to refuse to do business with any person, means a purchaser may not insist on making a purchase and so declaring a legal tender in law, as anything other than an offered payment for debts already incurred would not be effective.


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    #97
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,630 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Wikipedia is not a source, however it does not back up what you say and does back up what I'm saying - valid for a financial obligation. A retail purchase is not a financial obligation - as a bit of that post you didn't bold and presumably didn't read even says! Shops are not required to take cash.

    Legal tender is solely a concept for the payment of debts. It is irrelevant to the discussion here entirely. Retailers are also not required to take cards


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    #98
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,875 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    L1011 wrote: »
    Wikipedia is not a source, however it does not back up what you say and does back up what I'm saying - valid for a financial obligation. A retail purchase is not a financial obligation - as a bit of that post you didn't bold and presumably didn't read even says! Shops are not required to take cash.

    Legal tender is solely a concept for the payment of debts. It is irrelevant to the discussion here entirely. Retailers are also not required to take cards


    I can promise you that I'm not wrong on this. Any decent retailer knows & understands the laws surrounding their business. I'm genuinely gobsmacked that you don't know what Legal Tender is.



    OK Wikipedia isn't good enough. How about the EU? Can we accept the EU as a good source? https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/euro-area/euro/use-euro/euro-legal-tender_en

    Official currency

    The euro is the single currency shared by European Union countries that have adopted the euro. Some EU countries do not participate (Denmark and the United Kingdom through 'opt outs') or have not adopted the euro yet because the convergence criteria to join the euro are not met.
    Official currencies, including the euro, consist in a monetary system designed and controlled by a state or, as regards the euro, by supranational structures.
    Within the euro area, only the euro has the status of legal tender. Article 128 (1) TFEU lays down the legal tender status of euro banknotes, and article 11 of Regulation EC/974/98 does so with regard to euro coins. This means that in the absence of an agreement of the means of payment, the creditor is obliged to accept a payment made in euro which subsequently discharges the debtor from his payment obligation.
    Yet, during transactions, contractual parties are free to use other official foreign currencies with legal tender status in the state of issuance (e.g. the pound sterling or the US dollar). The same applies to privately issued money like local exchange trading systems (e.g. voucher-based payment systems in certain communities) or virtual currency schemes (e.g. Bitcoin). Although these are not official currencies and have no legal tender status, parties can agree to use them as private money without prejudice to the official currency. In that way, these forms of private money can be considered as economic assets. Private money transactions and business are subject to the general rules of commodity trade such as taxation law, business law, anti-money laundering law or others. However, they are not official currencies and they are not governed by monetary law.
    Practical questions about the euro

    Although euro area countries share a single currency, interpretations of its legal tender status means still differ across countries. This may be a source of confusion and lead to questions such as
    • can a retailer refuse payments in cash at all times?
    • can shops refuse payments with high denomination banknotes?
    • can surcharges be imposed on payments in cash?
    Therefore, the purpose of the Commission recommendation on the scope and effects of legal tender of euro cash (2010/191/EU) is to provide guidelines on such issues with direct implications on peoples' daily lives. These guidelines are based on 10 principles
    • banknotes and coins should be accepted for their full face value to pay for debts
    • payments in cash should be the accepted rule. This should only be refused because of the 'good faith' principle - for example, if the retailer does not have enough change
    • it should be the rule to accept high denomination banknotes
    • no surcharges should be imposed on payments in cash
    • countries should not adopt new rounding rules to the nearest 5 cent
    • countries should prevent euro collector coins from being used as means of payment
    • Stained banknotes should be brought back to the National Central Banks as they might be the product of a theft
    • total destruction of banknotes and coins by individuals in small quantities should not be prohibited
    • mutilation of banknotes and coins for artistic purposes should be tolerated
    • the competence to destroy fit euro coins should not belong to national authorities in isolation anymore


    Again if you can post a link to your information I might be able to explain how you are picking it up so wrong.


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    #99
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,630 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    And I can assure you that you are horribly, horribly wrong.

    You are skimming content to find the bits that align with your viewpoint. You are re-stating the concept of legal tender, that's fine. What you are entirely missing is that legal tender only applies in the case of settlement of a debt. This is a very basic legal concept. No debt is created in a retail transaction.

    You have again posted a reference that specifically mentions it being for debt; followed by some non-binding recommendations which while clearly solid advice for business owners, have no legal basis.


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    #100
    Dark Rabbit
    Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭Dark Rabbit


    That's if all of the cash is lodged. I was at a barber shop with my son recently (I'm completely bald 15 years). There were 3 barbers, a receptionist and the waiting room was packed but cash only and no receipt offered. I couldn't help but wonder if all the cash is declared for Paschal.


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    #101
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,875 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    L1011 wrote:
    You are skimming content to find the bits that align with your viewpoint. You are re-stating the concept of legal tender, that's fine. What you are entirely missing is that legal tender only applies in the case of settlement of a debt. This is a very basic legal concept. No debt is created in a retail transaction.

    You're really doubling down on this?

    My What you are missing is that everytime you buy something you have a debt. You owe for the goods or services. A debt isn't something that has to be owed for a period of time. A debt & payment of the debt can take place, in seconds at the cash register at your local filling station. A debt can be paid immediately or the retailer can offer credit terms. Either way it is a debt.

    If I repair your shower, walk down the stairs and have you a COD invoice, how do you describe you & I at that moment in time. You are in debt to me. Right there & then. It's the exact same in a filling station. You put 5 euros of fuel in the car & you owe 5 euros at the cash desk. Owing money is called? Anybody? Anybody? That's right. It's called a debt.

    Trust me when I tell you this, I am not wrong about this. Like I said a good retailer knows the laws governing his business.


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    #102
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,630 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I'm doubling down because I'm right and you are giving misinformation to consumers and indeed other retailers who may think you're right. If retailers knew the law we wouldn't need this forum.

    You are wrong in your interpretation of a when a debt is generated. Taking items to the counter in a shop does not generate a debt. It could be argued for fuel in a car - suspect that unless taken off the premises it doesn't - but I am not talking about specific situations. I'm generally generally with your idea that a shop must accept cash, which is completely and utterly wrong.

    You admitted your information came from a schoolbook however many years ago. Even then, it wasn't right - it wasn't right when legal tender was redefined for the Punt in 1927 and it wasn't right when we used Sterling.

    It is completely irrelevant to this topic anyway. If you wish to continue arguing I'll willingly follow you to a thread somewhere more relevant - Legal Discussion most likely.


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    #103
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,875 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Dark Rabbit wrote:
    That's if all of the cash is lodged. I was at a barber shop with my son recently (I'm completely bald 15 years). There were 3 barbers, a receptionist and the waiting room was packed but cash only and no receipt offered. I couldn't help but wonder if all the cash is declared for Paschal.

    Business don't have to accept accept cheques, cards, PayPal, bitcoin etc.

    Believe it or not there is no legal requirement for a business to provide a receipt. I've never understood this. Forcing businesses to issue receipts makes it harder to avoid tax. It should be compulsory.

    We'll never know if all the cash is declared in the barber shop you described


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    #104
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    people trying to buy one drink on a card are ruining pubs in dublin, usually you can get cashback. I hate drinking in pubs that will take a card for one drink, it lhalves the speed of the bar service while some drunk young wan forgets her pin or has to try 3 cards to not get declined.

    Pubs with ATM's or ones that have limits and then say 'but i can do cashback' are the best way to go.


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    #105
    Johnny Red Cab
    Closed Accounts Posts: 128 ✭✭Johnny Red Cab


    There is also no obligation to give change.


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    #106
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,875 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    L1011 wrote:
    You are wrong in your interpretation of a when a debt is generated. Taking items to the counter in a shop does not generate a debt. It could be argued for fuel in a car - suspect that unless taken off the premises it doesn't - but I am not talking about specific situations. I'm generally generally with your idea that a shop must accept cash, which is completely and utterly wrong.

    I quoted a poster who put fuel in his car. This poster was in debt the the filling station. This is fact. The poster wanted to be a smart ass regarding paying by card. I pointed out that the card wasn't legal tender but cash was. In this situation I was 100 percent correct in my statement. The poster was in debt to the filling station and legal tender definitely governs this transaction. You incorrectly pulled me up on it. I have posted quotes & links proving my point. You still insist I'm wrong yet haven't posted a single link to back up your claim.


    Can you explain how you can take possession of goods & not be in debt until you pay for the goods? This is what debt is. I have to tell you, it doesn't make much sense.


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    #107
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,630 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I didn't "incorrectly" pull you up on anything. You posted, and further repeatedly reposted an inaccurate concept of legal tender which it thankfully appears you have now dropped; and are instead arguing about the scope of posts instead.

    Shops do not have to take cash - end of story. I'm not sure what you thought you were arguing about as that was all that was ever in question once you queried me pointing out that you had the wrong concept of it

    If you still believe shops are required to take cash, we can start a separate thread as it is completely off-topic here.


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    #108
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,164 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    In summary Sleeper works in a centra and thinks he knows this like the back of his hand. And is completely wrong.


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    #109
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,875 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    L1011 wrote:
    Shops do not have to take cash - end of story. I'm not sure what you thought you were arguing about as that was all that was ever in question


    Hang on. Stop trying to wiggle out of this. You said I was wrong when I told the poster, who was in debt to the filling station that his card wasn't legal tender but that cash was.

    You still can't explain how poster has 5 euros worth of fuel in their & not being in debt to the filling station.

    Instead of just blindly saying that I am wrong can you please explain how the debt for the fuel isn't a debt & isn't covered by legal tender law.

    I have provided links & quotes from the EU website and you blindly say I'm wrong. Can you even explain how in the case of the filling station that the motorist isn't in debt to the filling station or doesn't have a debt to the filling station.

    If he wasn't in debt why did the poster pay anything at all?


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    #110
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,875 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    ED E wrote:
    In summary Sleeper works in a centra and thinks he knows this like the back of his hand. And is completely wrong.

    Link??? Anything at all that states that the debt covered by legal tender has to be long term debt.

    If I'm completely wrong please prove me wrong.
    I have posted links explaining legal tender. No one seems to be able to find a link explaining how short term debt isn't debt.
    Care to explain how putting fuel in you car does not create a debt?


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    #111
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,630 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I said that you were misusing the definition of legal tender, by talking about cash legal tender and shop - read your exact post again and see what words you used. And when you "doubled down" as you may call it you just further proved that your concept of it was wrong.

    I'm not going to reply to you on this thread again on this topic - it is completely off-topic and pointless.


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    #112
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,875 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    L1011 wrote:
    I'm not going to reply to you on this thread again on this topic - it is completely off-topic and pointless.


    If it is off topic its not me that brought it off topic.

    Not a single link?

    You still haven't explained how the poster wasn't in debt to the filling station owner after putting fuel in his car?


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    #113
    dudara
    Registered Users Posts: 33,519 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    If it is off topic its not me that brought it off topic.

    Not a single link?

    You still haven't explained how the poster wasn't in debt to the filling station owner after putting fuel in his car?

    Reading back, the problem looks like your definition of legal tender didn't seem right. No one is disputing there isn't a debt.


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    #114
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,875 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    I linked the case of the filling station stating that the card wasn't legal tender but cash was. This was fact & is still fact. If there is a debt then it clearly is covered by legal tender law.

    I have posted comments & links from the EU website explaining broadly what legal tender is. The finer details differ from country to country. It gives reasons why legal tender might not apply but none of the reasons given come anywhere close to covering the poster that I quoted with fuel in his car. The closest thing would be in the filling station had no change. This is a valid reason.

    Edit: my definition is the EU definition. I posted this to clear thing up but it seems to have made things worse.


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    #115
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,875 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    OP I don't think you got any advice after all these pages. Your contract is with the pub as far as the sale is concerned. They get to make their own rules on minimum sale. They didn't break any contract with you nor did they make any false promises to you.I'f you want to change things write a letter to owners explaining your position on this. Th

    If Mastercard or Visa or your bank promise you no minimum spend in your contract then this is the contract at fault & these are the ones to be chasing.

    I do find it amusing that everyone giving out are giving out about the wrong party is this.

    There is a third contract in this. The contract between the merchant account provider & the pub. This contract has nothing to do with you or I & we have no control over it.

    In short you can appeal to the pub to change their practice or you can complain to your provider who seems to be making false claims. Well actually maybe they aren't. I don't believe it's in my card contracts that there won't be minimum spends when I use my cards


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    #116
    mrcheez
    Registered Users Posts: 13,619 ✭✭✭✭mrcheez


    I've contacted The Academy about it, and waiting for a response.

    Their suggestion was "you can get cashback and use that to pay for drinks instead" ... kind of defeats the purpose of using NFC


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    #117
    mdebets
    Registered Users Posts: 1,747 ✭✭✭mdebets


    dudara wrote: »
    Reading back, the problem looks like your definition of legal tender didn't seem right. No one is disputing there isn't a debt.
    No, I think his definition of legal tender (to be used in case of debt) is right, it's just that in a normal retail transaction, no debt is created.
    Normally, you go to a shop and see a product on the shelve, marked for 10 Euro, so the retailer is inviting you to offer him 10 Euros for the product.
    You then put the product into a basket and go to the check out (product is still owned by the shop). You give the check-out person 10 Euro as an offer for the product and he accepts it and the product becomes legally yours. So no debt was created in the whole transaction. The only diversion from this would be restaurants, where you eat the product first and pay later, so a debt was created.
    You could argue at the petrol station that mixing the product that is legally owned by the petrol station (i.e. the petrol you are buying) with the product you legally own (i.e. the patrol that was in your car when you arrived at the petrol station) is a sort of consumption, but you would be able to get the equivalent of the amount of petrol you put into your car out of it again, so again no debt is created.


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    #118
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,875 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    mdebets wrote:
    No, I think his definition of legal tender (to be used in case of debt) is right, it's just that in a normal retail transaction, no debt is created. Normally, you go to a shop and see a product on the shelve, marked for 10 Euro, so the retailer is inviting you to offer him 10 Euros for the product. You then put the product into a basket and go to the check out (product is still owned by the shop). You give the check-out person 10 Euro as an offer for the product and he accepts it and the product becomes legally yours. So no debt was created in the whole transaction. The only diversion from this would be restaurants, where you eat the product first and pay later, so a debt was created. You could argue at the petrol station that mixing the product that is legally owned by the petrol station (i.e. the petrol you are buying) with the product you legally own (i.e. the patrol that was in your car when you arrived at the petrol station) is a sort of consumption, but you would be able to get the equivalent of the amount of petrol you put into your car out of it again, so again no debt is created.


    There is a whole list of things that can create a debt. Taxi journeys, haircuts, doctors visits & just about any service you can imagine from beauty treatments to appliance repair. It's a misconception that the debt can't be a short term /almost instantaneous for legal tender to apply.

    Having said all that I doubt many, if any, people try to force legal tender.


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    #119
    mdebets
    Registered Users Posts: 1,747 ✭✭✭mdebets


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    There is a whole list of things that can create a debt. Taxi journeys, haircuts, doctors visits & just about any service you can imagine from beauty treatments to appliance repair. It's a misconception that the debt can't be a short term /almost instantaneous for legal tender to apply.

    Having said all that I doubt many, if any, people try to force legal tender.
    Yes, services normally create a debt, but the whole thread was about retail transactions and they normally don't create a debt.


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    #120
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,875 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    mdebets wrote:
    Yes, services normally create a debt, but the whole thread was about retail transactions and they normally don't create a debt.


    But quite often they do as pointed out already eg filling stations, restaurants, cafes, hair salons, taxis. The average person finds themselves in a retail transactions governed by legal tender at least once per week. Some as often as almost every day.


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    #121
    wassie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,262 ✭✭✭wassie


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    The poster wanted to be a smart ass regarding paying by card.

    I fail to see how that makes them a smart ass.

    Unless there was a sign at the pump clearly stating this fact before the purchase was made, I think its entirely reasonable to assume a fuel station will take a card payment with no minimum spend. €7 is not an unreasonably small amount.

    My experience is that one only becomes aware of a retailers minimum transaction policy when they are actually attempting payment via a small sign located within the vicinity of the cashiers machine.

    When faced with this I've often suggested to the cashier that they simply charge me the €10 and give me back the difference between the purchase price in change from the till. Only been refused once and didnt make a bother - just left the shop!


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