Old Tool Restoration

09-07-2019 9:57pm

Run of the mill #4 1/2 shaped pile of rust arrived yesterday evening.

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Gave it the works, including paint.

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stuchyg · 11-07-2019 7:10am

That came up lovely. Where are ye buying your old planes. Postage from eBay seems like mad money. Would like to get myself a no.5 if possible

11-07-2019 8:02am

stuchyg wrote: »

That came up lovely. Where are ye buying your old planes. Postage from eBay seems like mad money. Would like to get myself a no.5 if possible

Look at the price of a good quality #5 new. €150-400

I’d rather pay €60-70 including postage on a decent old Stanley ‘Bailey’ or equivalent Record and spend an hour or two getting it cleaned up and ready to use.

Don’t think about the postage on its own. Just think about what it will cost to have it in your hands and what the new alternatives are by comparison.

And don’t be in a rush. I bought a 4 1/2 for £12 last year and paid £16.50 for the postage. Expensive postage, yes. Expensive 4 1/2 at €34 in my hand? Nope. But you need to watch and wait for deals like that. I bought a good Stanley #4 for €3.20 earlier this year. Insane deals come up, but you have to be watching and waiting for them, which doesn’t work if you want one ‘now’.

stuchyg · 11-07-2019 8:17am

JayZeus wrote: »

Look at the price of a good quality #5 new. €150-400

I’d rather pay €60-70 including postage on a decent old Stanley ‘Bailey’ or equivalent Record and spend an hour or two getting it cleaned up and ready to use.

Don’t think about the postage on its own. Just think about what it will cost to have it in your hands and what the new alternatives are by comparison.

And don’t be in a rush. I bought a 4 1/2 for £12 last year and paid £16.50 for the postage. Expensive postage, yes. Expensive 4 1/2 at €34 in my hand? Nope. But you need to watch and wait for deals like that. I bought a good Stanley #4 for €3.20 earlier this year. Insane deals come up, but you have to be watching and waiting for them, which doesn’t work if you want one ‘now’.

Thanks for the advice. I suppose addresspal is always an option too if postage is high. I don't necessarily need/want one now so I can keep an eye out. Is eBay the best place to watch?

11-07-2019 8:52pm

stuchyg wrote: »

Thanks for the advice. I suppose addresspal is always an option too if postage is high. I don't necessarily need/want one now so I can keep an eye out. Is eBay the best place to watch?

Sorry for the delay. Busy day.

Have you a preference for a Stanley, Record or other brands? And are you ready to pick something up now, or just looking for general pointers? I have a few in my watchlist that I'd share with you if you're ready to grab something on ebay.

Which planes do you have already? I only ask as in my own opinion, if you have a need for a larger plane but don't want to go down the rabbit hole of buying a 'full set', a 5 1/2 is a cracking good plane and would be my recommendation over a 5, assuming you have a smoothing plane already.

The Address Pal or Parcel Motel type option is worth using alright.

11-07-2019 9:11pm

Here's a good example of a 5 1/2 in great condition for what I'd consider to be very reasonable cost:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Stanley-Bailey-5-Bench-Fore-Plane/113792545607?hash=item1a7e907347:g:rowAAOSwRmNdDN9C&shqty=1&isGTR=1#shId

€68 delivered. Somebody will buy it anyway and be well pleased I'm sure. There are a few more like that available out of the UK most of the time. If you ever have a look and can't find much, give it a week, then look again.

stuchyg · 11-07-2019 9:46pm

JayZeus wrote: »

Sorry for the delay. Busy day.

Have you a preference for a Stanley, Record or other brands? And are you ready to pick something up now, or just looking for general pointers? I have a few in my watchlist that I'd share with you if you're ready to grab something on ebay.

Which planes do you have already? I only ask as in my own opinion, if you have a need for a larger plane but don't want to go down the rabbit hole of buying a 'full set', a 5 1/2 is a cracking good plane and would be my recommendation over a 5, assuming you have a smoothing plane already.

The Address Pal or Parcel Motel type option is worth using alright.

I'm not too fussed on brand, more the era for peace of mind over quality. Already have a smoothing plane so something for taking stock down, 5 and a half sounds ideal.

Not in a particular rush at the minute for anything, just general pointers on what to look out for

11-07-2019 9:51pm

By the way, to anyone wondering how the hell I'm dealing with rust on these tools, here's the 'secret sauce':

https://www.caulfieldindustrial.com/p/crc-30610-250ml-corrosion-and-rust-remover/p-124673

One small bottle is enough for 3-4 rust bucket plane bodies, frogs, cap irons, blades and lever caps, fasteners etc.

Use a container that's small enough to be economical, just large enough to fit the bits you want to de-rust without the parts all being in close contact. Lunch boxes work well for smaller items, or if you batch process a few planes you'll find a planter box to be pretty ideal if you pick one of a suitable size.

Once it's all done, this is my preferred anti-corrosion treatment:

https://www.lakelandsportssupplies.ie/shooting/Oils--Sprays/BALLISTOL-Universal-Oil----ML-122-15-1062.html

11-07-2019 10:19pm

stuchyg wrote: »

I'm not too fussed on brand, more the era for peace of mind over quality. Already have a smoothing plane so something for taking stock down, 5 and a half sounds ideal.

Not in a particular rush at the minute for anything, just general pointers on what to look out for

I might be repeating myself, I already know I probably am, but here goes with some general advice on buying old Stanley planes and what to consider:

English made Stanley planes are not inferior to US made ones, generally speaking. The internet are wrong in this regard, so ignore all the utter crap you'll read online and see in videos on youtube. The amount of third/fourth/fifth hand rubbish people go on with is misleading and serves nobody well. I write that as a keen enthusiast for the craft and for the tools we use to produce good work.

The 'Type 11/15/19' sort of stuff you read doesn't apply to Made in England Stanley planes. Stanley started in the UK in 1933 or so. All the 'type this and that' stuff is for US planes. In any case, who cares, right? I mean from a user perspective. The planes made in England included the sensible upgrades/changes incorporated in the early US planes as they evolved over 80 years or so before Stanley bought the works in England where they turned out these planes.

Pick a plane that doesn't have the reinforcing ribs cast into the sole and you're basically using something of a design and production standard as it was from the late 40's onwards. General rule of thumb stuff of course. But that's good enough for 'user' tools.

Don't buy a Stanley plane made in the last century that doesn't have 'Bailey' cast into the sole. Don't buy any bench plane made by Stanley that wasn't painted/japanned black in the first place. Grey 'Handyman' planes can sometimes be quite nice, I have a couple of 1960's ones which are nice despite the fact they're inferior on paper, but later maroon coloured ones are generally not worth the effort. In either case, a Bailey version is a nicer tool. I'd take a grey Handyman if it was free for a toolbox or van tool, but I would leave a maroon one where it was found, and only spend money to buy a Bailey.

The whole pre-war/post-war thing is also of little relevance except for collectors and to be very straight about it, I've had 1960's-1970's English made Stanleys that were much nicer tools to use than some pre-war US made ones. The castings were heavier/thicker for the sole for starters, wooden handles can almost always be very easily refined and refinished to better than new condition etc.

Again, Stanley specific, but if you can find a plane with a blade that doesn't have the text about grinding angles, that's the one to go for if you have a choice of two. The very latest blades (sold as spares) and the late model Stanley planes which had that text aren't up to the same standard as earlier blades. It's important to note that Record/Marples blades and chipbreakers include this text, and for that brand it's not a bad thing. But if it's Stanley brand, I'd look for an older blade instead.

Black plastic handles on Stanleys are not nice. Give it a miss and look for another plane instead. Brown 'resin' type handles are actually nice, IMHO. They take a crapload of abuse, don't raise blisters any quicker than wooden handles will and if you give them a light rub with 0000 steel wool, you can shellac and/or wax them and your hands won't be able to tell the difference between them and wooden handles.

If you find a plane with wooden handles and the rear tote has been cracked and glued, I'd recommend taking the tote off and ensure it was glued properly and that the threaded rod can be removed. I've found some real bodge jobs to repair rear totes, including epoxy bonded to the threaded rod preventing the handle from being tightened or removed from the sole. Careless repairs mean your options are limited and in many cases you'll end up with a spare parts donor rather than a restoration project.

If you find an otherwise complete plane with the handles are fecked, check out the Crown Tools replacement handle set, priced most keenly from either Ray Iles or Flinn-Garlick in the UK. Nicely made and can be fitted to a 3/4/5/6/7 (and half sizes) with a little light work to shorten the front lower of the rear tote on the short planes. They work well and can really 'make' a refurbishment project.

Speaking of refurbishment stuff.. Don't buy a shiny plane unless you're spending plenty of money on it and buying from a 100% positive feedback seller. If it looks like it ever came close to a wire wheel, buy something else. If it's listed as 'fully restored' and you see anything about it that isn't, buy something else. Too many butchers out there watching some YouTube videos and messing up planes by taking lazy shortcuts and using power tools to do what can be accomplished with just a little time and some careful effort. Better to buy a completely intact, untouched but rusty looking plane, jammed up with shavings and old sawdust under the frog and chipbreaker, with a clean break in the tote and missing some paint than buy something some goon has wrecked in the process of doing a piss-poor resto job on it.

In a nutshell (on this point), if it's Made in England, Stanley 'Bailey', has wooden handles, brass adjuster wheel and barrel nuts, doesn't have ribs in the sole casting and doesn't have 25/30 degree text on a Made in England Stanley blade, it's going to be a perfectly fine tool and can be somewhat easily made to work and look really well in equal measures.

chillyspoon · 11-07-2019 10:24pm

JayZeus wrote: »

By the way, to anyone wondering how the hell I'm dealing with rust on these tools, here's the 'secret sauce':

https://www.caulfieldindustrial.com/p/crc-30610-250ml-corrosion-and-rust-remover/p-124673

Coincidentally I was searching for rust removers only today - have you ever tried this one?

http://polishnparts.ie/evapo-rust-super-safe-rust-remover-946ml-1-litre/

11-07-2019 10:41pm

chillyspoon wrote: »

Coincidentally I was searching for rust removers only today - have you ever tried this one?

http://polishnparts.ie/evapo-rust-super-safe-rust-remover-946ml-1-litre/

I haven't used it, but the thing that really struck me aboutu Evapo-Rust is the cost. It's not a concentrate and it's not to be diluted at all, according the the UK and US franchise owners. I can't remember where I'd read it recently, (Lumberjocks maybe?) but the guy who markets it there under license confirmed that it won't work properly at all if watered down.

More detail? :P

At a 20:1 ratio, that CRC stuff works out at about €2.20 per ready to use liter, versus €21 for 1 ready to use liter of Evapo-Rust and from what I can tell, the results are basically the same. I've seen the Evapo-Rust stuff on many of the same videos I'm sure most of us have seen and I genuinely see no difference in the results. That 4 1/2 a few posts up was done with CRC at 16:1 using water at 30 degrees (warm water speeds up the reaction) and it spent 60 minutes soaking, then a rinse and gentle wipe down using an old nylon pot scrub in a basin of warm water, a quick 'dunk' in CRC and a rinse in warm water before being dried off with an old towel.

I can also use it 'neat' using a cotton bud to deal with a stubborn pit mark, or make a stronger or weaker solution depending on what I'm doing with it. The flexibility is great. And you just have to rinse it off properly, as with anything else. I wish I'd known about this stuff for the last 20 years!

stuchyg · 12-07-2019 9:05am

JayZeus wrote: »

I might be repeating myself, I already know I probably am, but here goes with some general advice on buying old Stanley planes and what to consider:

English made Stanley planes are not inferior to US made ones, generally speaking. The internet are wrong in this regard, so ignore all the utter crap you'll read online and see in videos on youtube. The amount of third/fourth/fifth hand rubbish people go on with is misleading and serves nobody well. I write that as a keen enthusiast for the craft and for the tools we use to produce good work.

The 'Type 11/15/19' sort of stuff you read doesn't apply to Made in England Stanley planes. Stanley started in the UK in 1933 or so. All the 'type this and that' stuff is for US planes. In any case, who cares, right? I mean from a user perspective. The planes made in England included the sensible upgrades/changes incorporated in the early US planes as they evolved over 80 years or so before Stanley bought the works in England where they turned out these planes.

Pick a plane that doesn't have the reinforcing ribs cast into the sole and you're basically using something of a design and production standard as it was from the late 40's onwards. General rule of thumb stuff of course. But that's good enough for 'user' tools.

Don't buy a Stanley plane made in the last century that doesn't have 'Bailey' cast into the sole. Don't buy any bench plane made by Stanley that wasn't painted/japanned black in the first place. Grey 'Handyman' planes can sometimes be quite nice, I have a couple of 1960's ones which are nice despite the fact they're inferior on paper, but later maroon coloured ones are generally not worth the effort. In either case, a Bailey version is a nicer tool. I'd take a grey Handyman if it was free for a toolbox or van tool, but I would leave a maroon one where it was found, and only spend money to buy a Bailey.

The whole pre-war/post-war thing is also of little relevance except for collectors and to be very straight about it, I've had 1960's-1970's English made Stanleys that were much nicer tools to use than some pre-war US made ones. The castings were heavier/thicker for the sole for starters, wooden handles can almost always be very easily refined and refinished to better than new condition etc.

Again, Stanley specific, but if you can find a plane with a blade that doesn't have the text about grinding angles, that's the one to go for if you have a choice of two. The very latest blades (sold as spares) and the late model Stanley planes which had that text aren't up to the same standard as earlier blades. It's important to note that Record/Marples blades and chipbreakers include this text, and for that brand it's not a bad thing. But if it's Stanley brand, I'd look for an older blade instead.

Black plastic handles on Stanleys are not nice. Give it a miss and look for another plane instead. Brown 'resin' type handles are actually nice, IMHO. They take a crapload of abuse, don't raise blisters any quicker than wooden handles will and if you give them a light rub with 0000 steel wool, you can shellac and/or wax them and your hands won't be able to tell the difference between them and wooden handles.

If you find a plane with wooden handles and the rear tote has been cracked and glued, I'd recommend taking the tote off and ensure it was glued properly and that the threaded rod can be removed. I've found some real bodge jobs to repair rear totes, including epoxy bonded to the threaded rod preventing the handle from being tightened or removed from the sole. Careless repairs mean your options are limited and in many cases you'll end up with a spare parts donor rather than a restoration project.

If you find an otherwise complete plane with the handles are fecked, check out the Crown Tools replacement handle set, priced most keenly from either Ray Iles or Flinn-Garlick in the UK. Nicely made and can be fitted to a 3/4/5/6/7 (and half sizes) with a little light work to shorten the front lower of the rear tote on the short planes. They work well and can really 'make' a refurbishment project.

Speaking of refurbishment stuff.. Don't buy a shiny plane unless you're spending plenty of money on it and buying from a 100% positive feedback seller. If it looks like it ever came close to a wire wheel, buy something else. If it's listed as 'fully restored' and you see anything about it that isn't, buy something else. Too many butchers out there watching some YouTube videos and messing up planes by taking lazy shortcuts and using power tools to do what can be accomplished with just a little time and some careful effort. Better to buy a completely intact, untouched but rusty looking plane, jammed up with shavings and old sawdust under the frog and chipbreaker, with a clean break in the tote and missing some paint than buy something some goon has wrecked in the process of doing a piss-poor resto job on it.

In a nutshell (on this point), if it's Made in England, Stanley 'Bailey', has wooden handles, brass adjuster wheel and barrel nuts, doesn't have ribs in the sole casting and doesn't have 25/30 degree text on a Made in England Stanley blade, it's going to be a perfectly fine tool and can be somewhat easily made to work and look really well in equal measures.

I thanked the post but that is excellent advice and pointers and thanks for taking the time to write it up

12-07-2019 9:19am

stuchyg wrote: »

I thanked the post but that is excellent advice and pointers and thanks for taking the time to write it up

You’re welcome. It’s a mix of personal experience and strong opinion so it’s not gospel, but I wish I’d had that advice when I started refurbishing these lovely old tools. Enjoy the hunt!

12-07-2019 8:35pm

Here's another good result doing nothing but degreasing and then dipping in CRC, a stronger 'pickling' solution at 8:1, before and after..

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They're a partial set of very high quality Henry Taylor carving tools which would have been supplied with a 'black oxide' finish originally, with a couple of exceptions. The previous owner didn't use them much and rust was becoming a problem, as you can see. I wanted to kill two birds with one stone..

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The larger spoon gouge received the same treatment (needed a taller jug!) and is a near perfect match in terms of finish. A quick run on the Tormek (A 'big birthday' gift, largely intended to spare the kitchen countertops and her sanity) had them all ready for work. Quick and easy stuff.

Collibosher · 12-07-2019 11:56pm

stuchyg wrote: »

I thanked the post but that is excellent advice and pointers and thanks for taking the time to write it up

Agreed, many thanks Jay, some excellent info in that post.

This old no.4 (I think), will be getting some attention later this summer.

15-08-2019 9:11pm

Fellas, who's the boardsie (a mod, I think) with all the Record planes/tools?

I have something that might be of interest to him. If it's you, reading this, drop me a PM.

Edit: Sparks, you have a PM. I can't attach pictures there, so have a look here instead, I hope... William Marples & Sons ratcheting brace, 10" swing, twin jaws, in good working order. You have first dibs as a Record fan. I'm too keen on the Stanley stuff to make room for it in my sets.

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20-08-2019 10:42pm

Sparks has no space for this one. So here’s what I’ll do:

First (established) boardsie to post a photo here of their username written on a piece of paper beside a Record or Marples handplane gets it.

20-08-2019 10:56pm

A Made in England Stanley Bailey 3C, corrugated sole, wooden handles and brass hardware. Rear tote broken and glued out of alignment, generally looking a bit shabby but mechanically very good.

Before

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After, tomorrow

21-08-2019 6:12pm

Gave it a bit of a soak, broke and reglued the handle (they're never perfect) a couple of coats of stained shellac and some wax, repainted the sole and frog and fitted a temporary replacement lever cap. The one that's on it is fine, but a bit ugly.

I'm awaiting a nicer lever cap from eBay and once it arrives I'll spend just a little while to lap the sole and cheeks, polish and then hone the blade, put it back together and leave it at that. This one is far from perfect but cost next to nothing, will work very well and will sit in a tool cabinet back at the farm, so isn't going to get a lot of use anyway.

It doesn't have to take a lot of time or make a big mess, but a little bit of effort while something plays on Netflix or YouTube helps turn a usable tool into a nicer to use tool. And anyone can do it, so get yourself a project plane and have a go if you're tempted.

magicbastarder · 21-08-2019 6:23pm

JayZeus wrote: »

Fellas, who's the boardsie (a mod, I think) with all the Record planes/tools?

i have a few planes, but only two of them are record, i think. couple of stanleys, couple of records, and a marple?
i'm a mod, but not of the woodworking forum - was it me you were thinking of?

21-08-2019 6:28pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i have a few planes, but only two of them are record, i think. couple of stanleys, couple of records, and a marple?
i'm a mod, but not of the woodworking forum - was it me you were thinking of?

No, 'twas Sparks.

But if you want that brace, you can have it. Nobody else has replied, except Sparks to say he has a full set and he sent a picture to prove it!

magicbastarder · 21-08-2019 6:41pm

i would take it with the proviso that we give it another day to see if anyone else would take it - i would hate to take a tool which might get less use than if someone else took it?

bamayang · 21-08-2019 7:20pm

Very nice offer, I’d be only taking it to take it.

my3cents · 21-08-2019 7:55pm

bamayang wrote: »

Very nice offer, I’d be only taking it to take it.

I stopped collecting these about 20 years ago. When I was in the UK I'd be buying at least one every weekend at car boot sales. It got compulsive in the end. I had some good stuff along with no end of No.4 planes that I was never ever going to use.

I still have more than I need but at least I've only kept the more useful ones.

Have to admit of the English planes I always preferred Record over Stanley.

21-08-2019 8:13pm

my3cents wrote: »

I stopped collecting these about 20 years ago. When I was in the UK I'd be buying at least one every weekend at car boot sales. It got compulsive in the end. I had some good stuff along with no end of No.4 planes that I was never ever going to use.

I still have more than I need but at least I've only kept the more useful ones.

Have to admit of the English planes I always preferred Record over Stanley.

I’ve been tempted by a couple of Record planes over the years but my ‘need’ to have all of them would have me in double trouble. I stick with the Stanleys and a handful of Veritas or it’d get out of hand rapidly. There’s only so many places I can put the damned things anyway!

my3cents · 21-08-2019 8:24pm

JayZeus wrote: »

I’ve been tempted by a couple of Record planes over the years but my ‘need’ to have all of them would have me in double trouble. I stick with the Stanleys and a handful of Veritas or it’d get out of hand rapidly. There’s only so many places I can put the damned things anyway!

My problem is I don't really have any good dry storage at home here. In the UK I had loads of space.

I used to try and stick with American Stanleys because at least they were rarer at carboots so I did'n't end up buying so many. I've sold most off over the years but still have more No.4s than I really need.

I wouldn't have left that 3C behind

For me thats a very nice usable plane.

magicbastarder · 29-08-2019 11:22pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i would take it with the proviso that we give it another day to see if anyone else would take it - i would hate to take a tool which might get less use than if someone else took it?

did you ever get a taker?

29-08-2019 11:31pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

did you ever get a taker?

Gone to a good home via his supportive Mam to a youngster with some bits and pieces handed down by his grandad but missing a plane and a drill of some sort. You have to place your trust with strangers from time to time, so I hope he uses it and enjoys making whatever he manages. Paul Sellers has a lot to answer for it would seem!

31-08-2019 12:25pm

Hammer Time.

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31-08-2019 12:27pm

Can’t touch this.

Handles next week.

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Old Tool Restoration

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