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Club head speed

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12357…13

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    #122
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,031 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    gypsy79 wrote: »
    Sorry a statistician and golfer is calling BS on that graph. Not enough outliers. It would be a very interesting graph to properly compile

    But I smell data fixing in that one

    Well it's not a random sample, it's players who use trackman so skewed by default, however I'm pretty sure I've seen similar from other sourcesb and wouldn't disagree with it.

    The problem I have is causation Vs correlation.


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    #123
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,031 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    moycullen14 wrote: »
    If you don't think distance matters that much, go out and play a scramble with someone who hits the ball as accurately as you and is 30 yds longer. See the difference it makes.

    As someone who is short (and getting shorter as I get older), I can tell you my scores are disimproving, even if my short game is holding up.

    Like pace on a rugby pitch, there's no substitute for distance in golf. Sad, but true

    The fact that you used a scramble where accuracy is not required kinda tells its own story...


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    #124
    gypsy79
    Registered Users Posts: 1,784 ✭✭✭gypsy79


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Well it's not a random sample, it's players who use trackman so skewed by default, however I'm pretty sure I've seen similar from other sourcesb and wouldn't disagree with it.

    The problem I have is causation Vs correlation.

    The data is also grouped as someone else pointed out later so we are graphing averages which is actually pointless and actively misleading


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    #125
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,031 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    gypsy79 wrote: »
    The data is also grouped as someone else pointed out later so we are graphing averages which is actually pointless and actively misleading

    I don't think we know it's an average, versus the median for example, i couldn't find any more detail on it?


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    #126
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,847 ✭✭✭Russman


    Distance over accuracy every time in the modern game, especially if someone is just starting out. Much easier to learn to control it than to add it. Greebo’s point about being accurate enough is valid though, you still have to keep it on the planet ish.
    Gaining length doesn’t necessarily mean you’re going to start hitting it OOB half the time. Plus, if you’ve got the length but are wild, you can hit 3W to where others are hitting their drivers to. If you offered me a 9 iron from the rough or a 6 iron from the fairway, I’m taking the 9 iron all day long.

    You may not notice it in a given round because you could have one of those days when you do in fact hit 4 balls OOB, however I definitely think over the course of a season, if you gain 20 yards, you’ll see a huge improvement in your golf and handicap.

    Take your classic stereotypical index 1 in Ireland, it’s usually a long par 4 that’s hard to reach. Now go to where a good drive is and throw your ball 25 yards forward - it’s a different ball game now. When I was low-ish I often played with other low guys and thought “jeez if I played golf from where they do, I’d be off a plus handicap”, it’s just so easy hitting a short iron all the time.

    I know we’re talking amateurs, but if you look at the tour, there’s plenty of guys who are useless at chipping yet comfortably hold their cards and win regularly. The short, steady hitters with good short games are a dying breed unfortunately.

    As an aside, isn’t the Arccos data from club golfers all over the world and not just professionals ?


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    #127
    chalky_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 302 ✭✭chalky_ie


    It has been completely proven that distance will make you a better golfer, no idea how this is even being argued. People seem to be solely concentrating on driving, and the potential to lose a ball with more distance, how many drivers do you hit vs irons in a round? If you can hit a 7 iron instead of a 5 iron 6 times in one round, and the same again for a 9 iron vs a 7 iron, how do you think that is going to pan out over time, when compared to maybe losing a few in the ditch, instead of them stopping in the rough 30 yards short? How many drives do you realistically hit a round, where that could even happen(if you had the extra distance)?

    People talking about half shots vs full shots and stuff like that, it has nothing to do with distance, that is shot selection. Don't put yourself in that position if you can't hit an 80 yard shot, you don't say no to extra distance because of something like that!


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    #128
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,031 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Russman wrote: »
    Now go to where a good drive is and throw your ball 25 yards forward - it’s a different ball game now.

    Its not 25 yards forward though, it's 25 yards further from the tee on the same line it was travelling...
    25 yards closer is a no-brainer, but that's not how it works out!


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    #129
    chalky_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 302 ✭✭chalky_ie


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Its not 25 yards forward though, it's 25 yards further from the tee on the same line it was travelling...
    25 yards closer is a no-brainer, but that's not how it works out!

    I mean, he has clearly said 25 yards further on a good drive, so that is how it works in his scenario.


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    #130
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,847 ✭✭✭Russman


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Its not 25 yards forward though, it's 25 yards further from the tee on the same line it was travelling...
    25 yards closer is a no-brainer, but that's not how it works out!

    Yes, but if you’re on the fairway, unless it was travelling sideways, 25 yards further on its direction of travel will usually be fine.

    In reality though, the truth is somewhere between the two, unless the ball had no curve at all. Imagine hitting a fade with a 6 iron and the same fade with a 5 iron - the 5 iron shot won’t be just an extension of the 6 iron line.


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    #131
    MarcusP12
    Registered Users Posts: 1,069 ✭✭✭MarcusP12


    Not going to bother offering up my own interpretation on this but was listening to a podcast this week and they talked about Rory and what he’s working on....one of the thing is his iron play from the rough.....Rory is one of the best drivers on tour and also one of the longest.....I found that interesting....


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    #132
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,031 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    conor-w wrote: »
    I mean, he has clearly said 25 yards further on a good drive, so that is how it works in his scenario.

    So we just ignore the average and bad drives?


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    #133
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,031 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Russman wrote: »
    Yes, but if you’re on the fairway, unless it was travelling sideways, 25 yards further on its direction of travel will usually be fine.

    In reality though, the truth is somewhere between the two, unless the ball had no curve at all. Imagine hitting a fade with a 6 iron and the same fade with a 5 iron - the 5 iron shot won’t be just an extension of the 6 iron line.

    Every ball, whether straight or curving is going to run out of fairway unless it's hit perfectly perpendicular to the centre of the fairway.

    All those shots that were just in the rough or just short of the trees are now deeper into the rough, trees or hazards.

    In your 5 Vs 6 iron scenario you have changed clubs, the point raised was adding distance to your existing shots, so they are going to go the same directions they do today, why wouldn't they?

    The better the player the further they can afford to hit it, they are both more accurate and more about to recover from a poor shot.

    The earlier idea that 25 yards would drop 4 shots is still madness imo.


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    #134
    thecomedian
    Registered Users Posts: 1,601 ✭✭✭thecomedian


    If every drive you hit was 25 yards shorter would you have the same handicap as you have now or would it be worse?


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    #135
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,847 ✭✭✭Russman


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Every ball, whether straight or curving is going to run out of fairway unless it's hit perfectly perpendicular to the centre of the fairway.

    All those shots that were just in the rough or just short of the trees are now deeper into the rough, trees or hazards.

    In your 5 Vs 6 iron scenario you have changed clubs, the point raised was adding distance to your existing shots, so they are going to go the same directions they do today, why wouldn't they?

    The better the player the further they can afford to hit it, they are both more accurate and more about to recover from a poor shot.

    The earlier idea that 25 yards would drop 4 shots is still madness imo.

    If you’re hitting it further your ball speed will likely increase, hence the comparison between two different irons. Effectively I think the ball will stay on it’s starting line longer before the spin takes effect.

    It’ll never be proven, but I reckon if you give most people 25 yards extra they’ll drop 4 shots over a season.

    Tbh I used to be a firm believer in the drive for show putt for dough mantra, and it’s still arguably true to an extent, particularly if the field are all mostly the same standard, but I now think that to make real long term gains you’ve got to look at distance. Assuming you’re even half competent around the greens.

    Now, if you’re useless around the greens, tidying up the short game will give almost instant results for the handicap golfer.


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    #136
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,847 ✭✭✭Russman


    GreeBo wrote: »
    So we just ignore the average and bad drives?

    I don’t think I’ve ever hit a bad drive and thought “I’m glad I’m not a long hitter” :)


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    #137
    copacetic
    Subscribers Posts: 16,558 ✭✭✭✭copacetic


    conor-w wrote: »
    It has been completely proven that distance will make you a better golfer, no idea how this is even being argued. People seem to be solely concentrating on driving, and the potential to lose a ball with more distance, how many drivers do you hit vs irons in a round? If you can hit a 7 iron instead of a 5 iron 6 times in one round, and the same again for a 9 iron vs a 7 iron, how do you think that is going to pan out over time, when compared to maybe losing a few in the ditch, instead of them stopping in the rough 30 yards short? How many drives do you realistically hit a round, where that could even happen(if you had the extra distance)?

    People talking about half shots vs full shots and stuff like that, it has nothing to do with distance, that is shot selection. Don't put yourself in that position if you can't hit an 80 yard shot, you don't say no to extra distance because of something like that!

    You are bang on here. If someone adds 25 yards to their drives, they’ve probably 4 clubs less into a green, not just 2.

    Eg they have gone from 225 to 250 yard total drive. They are playing index 5 400 yard hole.
    They used to have 175 in which was their 3 hybrid, now they have 150 in which is an 8 iron as they are 1.5 clubs longer with irons/hybrid too.

    In fact they can now hit their 3 wood 225 for safety if they like and still have 175 in but they now hit an easy 4 iron or hard 5 iron.


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    #138
    MarcusP12
    Registered Users Posts: 1,069 ✭✭✭MarcusP12


    thecomedian wrote: »
    If every drive you hit was 25 yards shorter would you have the same handicap as you have now or would it be worse?

    I don’t think that’s the debate though....certainly any comment I’ve been making are with the context that I’m swinging fast enough at the moment (as in I can’t just decide to add 25 yds) and that any gains require work and the debate is whether just being able to hit it further will benefit ur game or for example, do you have to work on technique as well......also, the idea that you can add 25 yds that easily is a difficult one for me to understand unless someone is seriously swinging within themselves as it is......I know we’re all throwing hypothetical scenarios out there but I think that’s a stretch....


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    #139
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,847 ✭✭✭Russman


    MarcusP12 wrote: »
    I don’t think that’s the debate though....certainly any comment I’ve been making are with the context that I’m swinging fast enough at the moment (as in I can’t just decide to add 25 yds) and that any gains require work and the debate is whether just being able to hit it further will benefit ur game or for example, do you have to work on technique as well......also, the idea that you can add 25 yds that easily is a difficult one for me to understand unless someone is seriously swinging within themselves as it is......I know we’re all throwing hypothetical scenarios out there but I think that’s a stretch....

    Like most things, it’s a balanced approach. If your technique is generally ok, then more speed is always good. If you have glaring faults that cause you lots of, say, penalty shots, I’d be inclined to take a few lessons rather than just go for yardage.

    It’s really only in the last few years that speed training has filtered down to the club golfer, if in fact it has at all. Strokes gained has had a huge bearing on it at pro level, but, again, wouldn’t really be well known or appreciated at club level.

    Actually Harrington has some very interesting stuff on his Instagram from back in lockdown 1, about distance and speed. Well worth a watch. It’s a 2 or 3 part set of video clips.


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    #140
    MarcusP12
    Registered Users Posts: 1,069 ✭✭✭MarcusP12


    copacetic wrote: »
    You are bang on here. If someone adds 25 yards to their drives, they’ve probably 4 clubs less into a green, not just 2.

    Eg they have gone from 225 to 250 yard total drive. They are playing index 5 400 yard hole.
    They used to have 175 in which was their 3 hybrid, now they have 150 in which is an 8 iron as they are 1.5 clubs longer with irons/hybrid too.

    In fact they can now hit their 3 wood 225 for safety if they like and still have 175 in but they now hit an easy 4 iron or hard 5 iron.

    25 yds is never 4 club difference....if someone can average (I assume that’s what ur basing it On) 250 yd drives, there’s no way they’re only getting 175 yds from a 3 hybrid....150 for the 8 iron is fair enough maybe....id be expecting 200 at least for the 3h....


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    #141
    willabur
    Registered Users Posts: 1,603 ✭✭✭willabur


    lads,

    this thread is in a pure spiral. Is Marcus not just saying that he is more comfortable at 120 than he is at 80? and that he is uncomfortable at 80 because it is not a full swing


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    #142
    MarcusP12
    Registered Users Posts: 1,069 ✭✭✭MarcusP12


    Russman wrote: »
    Like most things, it’s a balanced approach. If your technique is generally ok, then more speed is always good. If you have glaring faults that cause you lots of, say, penalty shots, I’d be inclined to take a few lessons rather than just go for yardage.

    It’s really only in the last few years that speed training has filtered down to the club golfer, if in fact it has at all. Strokes gained has had a huge bearing on it at pro level, but, again, wouldn’t really be well known or appreciated at club level.

    Actually Harrington has some very interesting stuff on his Instagram from back in lockdown 1, about distance and speed. Well worth a watch. It’s a 2 or 3 part set of video clips.

    Yeah makes sense what ur saying alright....that certainly resonates with me about getting lessons rather than extra speed....must check out paddy’s YouTube channel now that u mention it...watched all his short Twitter stuff but kind of got bored with YouTube golf stuff by the time he got up and running.....


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    #143
    MarcusP12
    Registered Users Posts: 1,069 ✭✭✭MarcusP12


    willabur wrote: »
    lads,

    this thread is in a pure spiral. Is Marcus not just saying that he is more comfortable at 120 than he is at 80? and that he is uncomfortable at 80 because it is not a full swing

    Since you’re referencing me specifically, I’ll answer myself...yeah ur right but don’t forget the context....that was brought into by another poster who claimed that 99.9999% of golfers would shoot better scores if they were hitting from 80 yds rather than 120 yds.....I merely made the point in response to that made up stat that I’d actually rather be from 120 as I am not comfortable with a 3/4 shot...I prefer full shots at the expense of being closer in that kind of scenario.....


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    #144
    chalky_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 302 ✭✭chalky_ie


    copacetic wrote: »
    You are bang on here. If someone adds 25 yards to their drives, they’ve probably 4 clubs less into a green, not just 2.

    Eg they have gone from 225 to 250 yard total drive. They are playing index 5 400 yard hole.
    They used to have 175 in which was their 3 hybrid, now they have 150 in which is an 8 iron as they are 1.5 clubs longer with irons/hybrid too.

    In fact they can now hit their 3 wood 225 for safety if they like and still have 175 in but they now hit an easy 4 iron or hard 5 iron.

    Exactly, it's madness that anyone is arguing this at all; as said before, this has categorically been proven with data from millions of golfers. All this talk of 'well I don't know what my swing would be like swinging that fast' etc. has absolutely nothing to do with it. Surely everyone has tried swinging harder at the ball, only to find that it doesn't go any further. Gaining 25 yards would not be done by simply swinging harder with your current swing, you would have to learn how to generate power better, you're not going to have some out of control, ridiculous swing.
    MarcusP12 wrote: »
    Since you’re referencing me specifically, I’ll answer myself...yeah ur right but don’t forget the context....that was brought into by another poster who claimed that 99.9999% of golfers would shoot better scores if they were hitting from 80 yds rather than 120 yds.....I merely made the point in response to that made up stat that I’d actually rather be from 120 as I am not comfortable with a 3/4 shot...I prefer full shots at the expense of being closer in that kind of scenario.....

    Your point about 80 vs 120 made no sense to the discussion at hand; in your scenario, with 40 yards more distance, you would still play the club to put yourself at 120 yards(because that's where you're comfortable), it would just be a different club, which would be easier to hit. You wouldn't have to just accept that you now will always be 80 yards out instead of 120 yards.


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    #145
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,847 ✭✭✭Russman


    MarcusP12 wrote: »
    Yeah makes sense what ur saying alright....that certainly resonates with me about getting lessons rather than extra speed....must check out paddy’s YouTube channel now that u mention it...watched all his short Twitter stuff but kind of got bored with YouTube golf stuff by the time he got up and running.....

    Don’t think the speed stuff is on his YouTube, it’s definitely on his IG though. The vids are maybe 5/6 mins each. Under Paddysgolftips and Let’s Talk about Speed. In the first one he shows a whole plethora of aids and contraptions he has used over the years.


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    #146
    MarcusP12
    Registered Users Posts: 1,069 ✭✭✭MarcusP12


    conor-w wrote: »
    Exactly, it's madness that anyone is arguing this at all; as said before, this has categorically been proven with data from millions of golfers. All this talk of 'well I don't know what my swing would be like swinging that fast' etc. has absolutely nothing to do with it. Surely everyone has tried swinging harder at the ball, only to find that it doesn't go any further. Gaining 25 yards would not be done by simply swinging harder with your current swing, you would have to learn how to generate power better, you're not going to have some out of control, ridiculous swing.



    Your point about 80 vs 120 made no sense to the discussion at hand; in your scenario, with 40 yards more distance, you would still play the club to put yourself at 120 yards(because that's where you're comfortable), it would just be a different club, which would be easier to hit. You wouldn't have to just accept that you now will always be 80 yards out instead of 120 yards.

    Man alive, how many times do I have to explain myself, I was reply to a specific point about being 120 or 80 from the green....I wasn’t using it to support my own views on distance v accuracy!!

    Anyway, on ur initial comment I am actually fully on board with because you did something that an awful lot of distance is always good crew are refusing to discuss which is the need to address technique and accuracy....I’m all for extra distance in my game but not without addressing control and accuracy because I think that would do more harm than good for me.....you’re one of the few to specifically bring it into their argument from what I can tell....


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    #147
    thecomedian
    Registered Users Posts: 1,601 ✭✭✭thecomedian


    MarcusP12 wrote: »
    I don’t think that’s the debate though....certainly any comment I’ve been making are with the context that I’m swinging fast enough at the moment (as in I can’t just decide to add 25 yds) and that any gains require work and the debate is whether just being able to hit it further will benefit ur game or for example, do you have to work on technique as well......also, the idea that you can add 25 yds that easily is a difficult one for me to understand unless someone is seriously swinging within themselves as it is......I know we’re all throwing hypothetical scenarios out there but I think that’s a stretch....

    I don’t mean to be rude but I didn’t quote you.
    My post was in relation to being the further your drive the more likely chance of having a low score.


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    #148
    copacetic
    Subscribers Posts: 16,558 ✭✭✭✭copacetic


    MarcusP12 wrote: »
    25 yds is never 4 club difference....if someone can average (I assume that’s what ur basing it On) 250 yd drives, there’s no way they’re only getting 175 yds from a 3 hybrid....150 for the 8 iron is fair enough maybe....id be expecting 200 at least for the 3h....

    I think you misread. I didn’t say 25 yards was a 4 clubs distance. I said that if you manage to get 25 yards more in driver, you’ve added about 10mph swing speed, this gets added to all clubs pro rata, so the 25 yards cut the club need by about 2.5 clubs. The added swing speed cut it by 1.5 more clubs, so 4 clubs total. It’s not rocket science.

    When at first still hitting 225 yard drives, they are indeed probably hitting a 3 hybrid at 175.

    The point really is you don’t need to get much better or faster to add a lot to your game, 10% better is a lot of gain as outlined. So 5% better striking and 5% more speed and you would be there.


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    #149
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,031 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    thecomedian wrote: »
    If every drive you hit was 25 yards shorter would you have the same handicap as you have now or would it be worse?

    It would obviously be worse, same as if you reduced any aspect of your current ability...?


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    #150
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,031 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Russman wrote: »
    I don’t think I’ve ever hit a bad drive and thought “I’m glad I’m not a long hitter” :)

    You've never hit a drive and said "I'm glad that didn't go 25 yards further"?


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    #151
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,031 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    conor-w wrote: »
    Exactly, it's madness that anyone is arguing this at all; as said before, this has categorically been proven with data from millions of golfers. All this talk of 'well I don't know what my swing would be like swinging that fast' etc. has absolutely nothing to do with it. Surely everyone has tried swinging harder at the ball, only to find that it doesn't go any further. Gaining 25 yards would not be done by simply swinging harder with your current swing, you would have to learn how to generate power better, you're not going to have some out of control, ridiculous swing.



    Your point about 80 vs 120 made no sense to the discussion at hand; in your scenario, with 40 yards more distance, you would still play the club to put yourself at 120 yards(because that's where you're comfortable), it would just be a different club, which would be easier to hit. You wouldn't have to just accept that you now will always be 80 yards out instead of 120 yards.

    What are you saying he been categorically proven?

    That better golfers hit the ball further or that hitting the ball further makes them better golfers?

    Two very different things, so I'd be interested in your clarification and proof of same.


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