Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Interested Observer · 30-11-2020 9:30pm

Clegg wrote: »

Watching 'Against the Head' on RTE. They're highlighting the lack of vision in the backs. The centres especially come out of it badly. Farrell and McCloskey ignored overlaps in favour of kicking in behind. Which is bad enough to begin with it, but compounded by the fact they were poorly executed kicks too.

It looks like we tried to incorporate the lessons we learned from the England game against a side that defends nothing like them. We knew we didn't kick enough a week ago so kicked too often, ignoring the better attacking opportunities our wings had.

I've far more problem with us just shovelling poor quality passes along the backline without fixing any defenders. It's so easy to defend.

irishbucsfan · 30-11-2020 9:40pm

All of that is bad, but even worse, I’ve just seen a photo of Nuciforas hair and it’s so bad it’s turned me into an Ulster fan

AbusesToilets · 30-11-2020 10:16pm

Clegg wrote: »

Watching 'Against the Head' on RTE. They're highlighting the lack of vision in the backs. The centres especially come out of it badly. Farrell and McCloskey ignored overlaps in favour of kicking in behind. Which is bad enough to begin with it, but compounded by the fact they were poorly executed kicks too.

It looks like we tried to incorporate the lessons we learned from the England game against a side that defends nothing like them. We knew we didn't kick enough a week ago so kicked too often, ignoring the better attacking opportunities our wings had.

It might just be me, but I feel Irish teams are terrible at exploiting overlaps. We never seem to manufacture the space that NZ or other good attacking teams do.

El_Duderino 09 · 30-11-2020 10:43pm

accensi0n wrote: »

Next you'll be telling me the 10 doesn't have to be the kicker. :rolleyes: :pac:

No, next I’ll be telling you that hooker doesn’t have to throw into the lineout.

One funeral at a time, eh?

UAEguy2020 · 30-11-2020 11:28pm

Clegg wrote: »

Watching 'Against the Head' on RTE. They're highlighting the lack of vision in the backs. The centres especially come out of it badly. Farrell and McCloskey ignored overlaps in favour of kicking in behind. Which is bad enough to begin with it, but compounded by the fact they were poorly executed kicks too.

It looks like we tried to incorporate the lessons we learned from the England game against a side that defends nothing like them. We knew we didn't kick enough a week ago so kicked too often, ignoring the better attacking opportunities our wings had.

Which again is why we need that second set of eyes like Ringrose.

UAEguy2020 · 30-11-2020 11:30pm

Interested Observer wrote: »

I've far more problem with us just shovelling poor quality passes along the backline without fixing any defenders. It's so easy to defend.

It’s like we are trying to get the ball to the wing as soon as possible without achieving the main aim of the attack, to draw players, and by the time it gets to the end of the line they just boot it because there is no space as no defenders were drawn...Leinster do it right,Munster,Ulster,Connacht can do it yet for Ireland they forget everything, this is the pure basics of back play, it shouldn’t have to be coached into them...

Dubinusa · 30-11-2020 11:31pm

Maybe the players are not top quality? I have no idea what the problem is. But, we look kind of headless.
I thought Keenan was our best player from Saturday. None of the forwards impressed me.
Anyway... on to Scotland

irishbucsfan · 30-11-2020 11:43pm

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Which again is why we need that second set of eyes like Ringrose.

I'm not sure Ringrose creates all that many line breaks himself and I don't think he turns up at first receiver often enough to solve any of those problems. I think the answer is likely a different type of player at 15, purely because we don't produce that many 2 5/8th style midfielders who are up to standard.

UAEguy2020 · 30-11-2020 11:45pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'm not sure Ringrose creates all that many line breaks himself and I don't think he turns up at first receiver often enough to solve any of those problems. I think the answer is likely a different type of player at 15, purely because we don't produce that many 2 5/8th style midfielders who are up to standard.

It’s not necessarily the line break it’s just him not being a Bosch player and having excellent feet, it gives defenses something else to think about. One player I definitely would like to see in there at 15 if he brings his form to Europe and the interpros is Jimmy O’Brien, feel he is exactly what we are crying out for.

UAEguy2020 · 30-11-2020 11:47pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

Maybe the players are not top quality? I have no idea what the problem is. But, we look kind of headless.
I thought Keenan was our best player from Saturday. None of the forwards impressed me.
Anyway... on to Scotland

We’re playing Georgia...

The Lost Sheep · 30-11-2020 11:52pm

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

We’re playing Georgia...

we're not. they play fiji

UAEguy2020 · 01-12-2020 12:07am

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

we're not. they play fiji

.

bilston · 01-12-2020 12:10am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'm not sure Ringrose creates all that many line breaks himself and I don't think he turns up at first receiver often enough to solve any of those problems. I think the answer is likely a different type of player at 15, purely because we don't produce that many 2 5/8th style midfielders who are up to standard.

Mike Lowry may be the player you're looking for. I suspect Ulster will stick Stockdale at 11 and Lowry at 15 for Europe, but we will see.

Clegg · 01-12-2020 12:17am

BOD wants Frawley in the squad. Think it's too soon for that myself, but he's played well at 12 over the last month. Could be the distributing option we're looking for.

Need to see him play in bigger games to get the full picture.

thomond2006 · 01-12-2020 12:19am

I thought Matt Gallagher might have been a potential bolter in 2021 but he's gone off tonight with a serious looking arm/shoulder injury.

Paul Smeenus · 01-12-2020 12:22am

bilston wrote: »

Mike Lowry may be the player you're looking for. I suspect Ulster will stick Stockdale at 11 and Lowry at 15 for Europe, but we will see.

I've said before, I was sceptical of him getting a crack at international level because of his size, but he's been in fantastic form, and has done it at inter-pro and European level. If you're going by form, if you want a skilled, distributing FB, he should get a crack. Ahead of JOB or anyone else.

Richie_Rich89 · 01-12-2020 12:33am

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

I've said before, I was sceptical of him getting a crack at international level because of his size, but he's been in fantastic form, and has done it at inter-pro and European level. If you're going by form, if you want a skilled, distributing FB, he should get a crack. Ahead of JOB or anyone else.

Haven't seen too much of Ulster lately, Has Lowry been that good? JOB's been pretty tidy. I'd like to see him get a shot. The ex-7s players have good accuracy of execution of skills and technique.

The creative axis of the centres and fullback needs something new anyway. Hopefully Stewart Moore can improve his defence up to a good level cos he's already a brilliant attacker. He seems to read and understand the game so well.

Paul Smeenus · 01-12-2020 12:38am

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Haven't seen too much of Ulster lately, Has Lowry been that good? JOB's been pretty tidy. I'd like to see him get a shot. The ex-7s players have good accuracy of execution of skills and technique.

The creative axis of the centres and fullback needs something new anyway. Hopefully Stewart Moore can improve his defence up to a good level cos he's already a brilliant attacker. He seems to read and understand the game so well.

Yeah. Lowry has been genuinely excellent. JOB's been very good, but as a 10, the way Lowry plays, brings others in and turns defence into attack is a key strength for Ulster. He has also has some amazing dancing feet on him.

aloooof · 01-12-2020 1:34am

Clegg wrote: »

BOD wants Frawley in the squad. Think it's too soon for that myself, but he's played well at 12 over the last month. Could be the distributing option we're looking for.

Need to see him play in bigger games to get the full picture.

Was this from Off The Ball, Clegg? I don’t think he was calling for his inclusion in the squad, tbh. Was it not more about his development with Leinster this season and potentially being an option in he more medium to long term?

Ardillaun · 01-12-2020 3:32am

The players vs coach vs systems debate always rears it’s head when we are doing badly. What is the best way to figure out the relative contribution of each to our current malaise? I’m not convinced our players are that great. Could the Leinster management get more out of them? *Runs away quickly*

TRC10 · 01-12-2020 5:09am

Any update on Henshaw? He's been our best player in 2020 and we badly need his distribution and footwork in midfield.

Dubinusa · 01-12-2020 6:28am

Our performance was very flat this past weekend. I thought we were going to put up a big score, but fair play to Georgia. They competed very well. The try they scored was brilliant.
Shane Daly getting in was very well deserved. He's another lad who I think will be pushing his way into the reckoning.
If EOS gets capped this week, that will be 11 new caps this autumn, iirc. That's great to see. Although we really have not played well. Overall though, the make up of the squad is going to look different over the next few months/ year.
Understandably, a lot of lads were injured and will probably come back in when healthy, but the dynamics of the play and the squad are shifting. I think Farrell has done ok thus far. By no means are we playing to our potential and the drop in form is frustrating but, given time, I believe we could be a very good side.
The players need to step up and play more physically imo. Georgia made us look sloppy at times and I think we might have underestimated them. I still think that the loose head issue could be very damning. If nobody can step in and replace Healy... we are fecked. The man has played all theses matches this month. He's getting flogged. Bealham, is not the answer either. It could be Wycherly in Munster in time or maybe EOS will get a shot and take his opportunity. I didn't realize the Kilcoyne is 32. I thought he was 29 or 30. He probably is not the answer either. He's going to be 35 for the next world cup.

Niallof9 · 01-12-2020 8:19am

Farrell has a simple out here. He needs to be bolder. If he had against Georgia people cut him slack. He can go down the excuse route and talk of building. The reason he can't is because he picked a hugely experienced spine against Georgia. A loss to Scotland and its already entering last chance saloon. To take such a punt on the coach but not selections is typically Irish. I'd cut our losses now if i was the IRFU. Injuries, long camp, covid and now the contract situation all taking their toll. But so too is an inexpeienced head coach and three awful ly overrated assistants. The contract situation was always a danger. In its very nature the central contract system and its pecking order, often unjust, must be destabilising much of the time when things go wrong.

nigeldaniel · 01-12-2020 9:41am

I am afraid I do not agree with the IRFU and their 'players must stay in Ireland if they wish to play for Ireland' idea. I think it is going to backfire on Rugby as a whole. I understand the idea of having strong clubs but would the provinces weaken all that much if 3 or 4 or so players left every now and again. Take injuries for an example. Look what happened to Munster in the last 2 years. Take out a few key players and they still found replacements. I just think there is too much fear about what will happen to clubs if a number of players leave. It's not as though we would see busloads heading overseas.
Just my two pennies worth on the subject.

thomond2006 · 01-12-2020 9:47am

nigeldaniel wrote: »

I understand the idea of having strong clubs but would the provinces weaken all that much if 3 or 4 or so players left every now and again.

Yes they would and there would be a lot more consternation about that than about one or two players electing to make themselves ineligible for Ireland.

The only time the policy is ever brought up us when Ireland are struggling. There was hardly a peep about it in 2018.

Interested Observer · 01-12-2020 9:51am

Ardillaun wrote: »

The players vs coach vs systems debate always rears it’s head when we are doing badly. What is the best way to figure out the relative contribution of each to our current malaise? I’m not convinced our players are that great. Could the Leinster management get more out of them? *Runs away quickly*

Do you reckon the side the Leinster side that was meant to play Scarlets at the weekend, prepped/coached/etc as usual by the Leinster coaching staff, would have done any worse against Georgia than Ireland did? I certainly don't.

sydthebeat · 01-12-2020 10:28am

nigeldaniel wrote: »

I am afraid I do not agree with the IRFU and their 'players must stay in Ireland if they wish to play for Ireland' idea. I think it is going to backfire on Rugby as a whole. I understand the idea of having strong clubs but would the provinces weaken all that much if 3 or 4 or so players left every now and again. Take injuries for an example. Look what happened to Munster in the last 2 years. Take out a few key players and they still found replacements. I just think there is too much fear about what will happen to clubs if a number of players leave. It's not as though we would see busloads heading overseas.
Just my two pennies worth on the subject.

3 or 4 players leave all the time.

Off the top of my head (with a little Google help) , within the last 10 years, Conor gilsenan, noel Reid, Jack regan, Conan o donnell, oli jager, Bryan Byrne, Niall anett, Brett herron, callum Black, paddy Jackson, Sean o brien, Ian Madigan, Ian keatley, Ian Nagle, mick kearney, Jerry Sexton, Michael heaney, brendan macken, Peter lydon, David Johnson, Ryan foley, des merry, Conor Joyce, Mark Flanagan, tadgh mcelroy, James lennon, paddy Ryan, Rory parata, Sean scanlan, Jordan coughlan, oisin Heffernan, Shane buckley , Shane o leary, gearoid lyons, Craig teanor, donnacha Ryan, Simon Zebo, paddy butler, Dave Ryan, Denis coulson, Duncan casey, Frank Ryan, Stuart olding, Jamie hagan, Dan touhy, eamon Sheridan, Steve mcmahon, Justin fitzpatrick, Dylan fawsitt, cathal Marsh, James Rochford, paddy Ryan, Ross deacon, will Leonard, Mark o keeffe, Marcus Walsh, Jamie dever, Charlie Connolly, Conor Murphy, Sam Windsor, all left the Irish provincal systems to play abroad

I think that's about 60 ish

Niallof9 · 01-12-2020 10:36am

well i think the picture is becoming clearer now and it would make more sense as to why we are seeing such tripe at the moment. there has to be real fears now from the players. With that many out of contract, there will be blood. In no way should some of these guys continue on the top tier bracket. And at this stage the bluff of moving abroad should be called. I was never a fan of the ringfenced contracts, nor the ban on players abroad. An Aussie style cap system and more IRFU top up deals to certain provincial contracts would possibly be a fix. Cause either way if say Murray on his near 600k is given a paycut or an extension on that contract, it will be a negative. You'll have either an unhappy player or a player and an organisation living in denial. the chickens are finally coming home to roost on all this and i think people who argued the central contract thing and the players abroad thing are only a positive, and calling out anybody who saids otherwise as a wum, crazy, non conforming is finally being proven wrong. 90 players out of contract? we're in **** creek. Covid will just make the blind see. Central contracts for 3 years for a tiny minority was a mugs game when all is taken into consideration.

It was of its time, it worked. Now they need to come up with something else. Its all funded by the IRFU i don't see why they can't move to in house provincial deals with nobody egged as a special star. All contracted provincially, with some paid more if they perform and are of that elite status. More performance related clauses like Liverpool apparently do(https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/liverpool-fc-change-player-contracts-3325019). But we don;t have to make a song and dance about how 12 players out of about 200 are the best of the best, and nearly certain of their spots and better sponsorship/opportunities due to big contracts splashed across the papers. The repeated failures in the World Cup should really take away some of the players bargaining chips, and now you can reset with a largely youngish squad. Players who have over 50 caps could be in consideration if they move abroad or on a case by case basis. There's always been an issue here in the way unlike football or other team sports we can't sell or release some of these guys easily. Therefore perfomances from individuals can be all over the shop when theres no real disincentive to not perform. And we can't afford to have players like O'Brien and Zebo not playing for Ireland. we aren't good enough to be in that position.

stellenbosch · 01-12-2020 10:55am

Niallof9 wrote: »

well i think the picture is becoming clearer now and it would make more sense as to why we are seeing such tripe at the moment. there has to be real fears now from the players. With that many out of contract, there will be blood. In no way should some of these guys continue on the top tier bracket. And at this stage the bluff of moving abroad should be called. I was never a fan of the ringfenced contracts, nor the ban on players abroad. An Aussie style cap system and more IRFU top up deals to certain provincial contracts would possibly be a fix. Cause either way if say Murray on his near 600k is given a paycut or an extension on that contract, it will be a negative. You'll have either an unhappy player or a player and an organisation living in denial. the chickens are finally coming home to roost on all this and i think people who argued the central contract thing and the players abroad thing are only a positive, and calling out anybody who saids otherwise as a wum, crazy, non conforming is finally being proven wrong. 90 players out of contract? we're in **** creek. Covid will just make the blind see. Central contracts for 3 years for a tiny minority was a mugs game when all is taken into consideration.

It was of its time, it worked. Now they need to come up with something else. Its all funded by the IRFU i don't see why they can't move to in house provincial deals with nobody egged as a special star. All contracted provincially, with some paid more if they perform. More performance related clauses like Liverpool apparently do(https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/liverpool-fc-change-player-contracts-3325019). The repeated failures in the World Cup should really take away some of the players bargaining chips, and now you can reset with a largely youngish squad. Players who have over 50 caps could be in consideration if they move abroad.

Very very valid comments there

Former Former Former · 01-12-2020 11:09am

sydthebeat wrote: »

3 or 4 players leave all the time.

Off the top of my head (with a little Google help) , within the last 10 years, Conor gilsenan, noel Reid, Jack regan, Conan o donnell, oli jager, Bryan Byrne, Niall anett, Brett herron, callum Black, paddy Jackson, Sean o brien, Ian Madigan, Ian keatley, Ian Nagle, mick kearney, Jerry Sexton, Michael heaney, brendan macken, Peter lydon, David Johnson, Ryan foley, des merry, Conor Joyce, Mark Flanagan, tadgh mcelroy, James lennon, paddy Ryan, Rory parata, Sean scanlan, Jordan coughlan, oisin Heffernan, Shane buckley , Shane o leary, gearoid lyons, Craig teanor, donnacha Ryan, Simon Zebo, paddy butler, Dave Ryan, Denis coulson, Duncan casey, Frank Ryan, Stuart olding, Jamie hagan, Dan touhy, eamon Sheridan, Steve mcmahon, Justin fitzpatrick, Dylan fawsitt, cathal Marsh, James Rochford, paddy Ryan, Ross deacon, will Leonard, Mark o keeffe, Marcus Walsh, Jamie dever, Charlie Connolly, Conor Murphy, Sam Windsor, all left the Irish provincal systems to play abroad

I think that's about 60 ish

In fairness, very few of them are relevant to the national team, the vast majority left because they had to if they wanted to play pro rugby. TBH, there's a few in there I'd never even heard of.

The only people who really left while still wanted here have been Johnny Sexton (you forgot him), D Ryan, Madigan and Zebo - and really only Sexton was crucial, D Ryan not far behind but Madigan and Zebo were not huge losses. The likes of O'Brien and Paul O'Connell were winding down and looking for a final payday.

The big losers of an exodus abroad would be the provinces. The national team might have to swallow its pride and start picking the exiles but the provinces would be screwed.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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