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Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

24567…555

Comments

  • #32
    sondagefaux
    Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭sondagefaux


    peter kern wrote: »
    would you not argue that the uk is defacto in the customs union and north korea is far from that

    A customs union doesn't just abolish tariffs between its members, but it also requires all its members to impose a common tariff on products from outside the customs union. Once a product is imported into a customs union member and the tariff is paid there, it is in free circulation within the customs union and no further tariffs are payable if it is exported within the customs union.

    Let's say I'm in Germany and I import a car from the USA. I pay the import tariff when it enters Germany. I can now export that car to France and the French importer doesn't have to pay any import tariff. Not only that, but the rate of import tariffs I pay when I import cars from the USA into Germany is the same as I would have paid if I imported cars from the USA into France, as both are members of the same customs union and have the same tariff rates on imports from outside the customs union, a common external tariff.

    Now let's say I import a car into Britain from the USA and export it to France.

    I will have to pay the UK import tariff which may be a different rate from the EU tariff.

    The French importer will have to pay the EU tariff when the car enters France despite the trade agreement with the UK.

    This is because the trade agreement between the UK and the EU only abolishes tariffs on goods that originate in their respective customs territories, not on goods from elsewhere and also because the UK and EU have separate tariffs on imports, not a common external tariff.

    It's more complex than this in reality: goods traded between the EU and the UK can contain parts or ingredients or materials from other countries up to a limit (45% is the standard limit) and still qualify for tariff expemption under the agreement, as can goods that are imported from other countries and sufficiently transformed in either the UK or EU.

    Proof that goods meet these requirements, as set out in the rules of origin of the trade agreement, is required before they qualify for tariff exemption.

    Getting this proof requires certification which costs money to obtain.

    This isn't required for trade between members of a customs union.

    In addition, Britain is now outside the Single Market, so proof that British products meet EU standards is now required, again requiring certification which costs money to obtain.


  • #33
    peter kern
    Registered Users Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭peter kern


    sondagefaux wrote: »
    Turkey has a customs union with the EU, although it doesn't include agricultural products except processed ones (eg. tomato paste, but not tomatoes) and, despite the diagrams doing the rounds, it is not in the EU Customs Union.

    The EU and Turkey also have a trade agreement to supplement their customs union agreement.

    This is the element of the trading relationship between the EU and Turkey that the UK has rolled over, not the customs union.

    And that's why rules of origin certification is needed for UK-Turkey trade, as trade agreements require proof that goods traded originate sufficiently in the parties to qualify for the preferential tariffs set out in the agreement.


    ok this makes sense . thanks for the answers
    so turkey is kind of a 90 % member of the customs union since some products are not part of this
    now one more question if you dont mind, in the barrnier ladder turkey is bellow ukraine. is the custom union deal with the eu the same as turkey or is it different?
    and what are the advantages for the ukraine which abides to the ECJ, over turkey ?


  • #34
    sondagefaux
    Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭sondagefaux


    peter kern wrote: »
    ok this makes sense . thanks for the answers
    so turkey is kind of a 90 % member of the customs union since some products are not part of this
    now one more question if you dont mind, in the barrnier ladder turkey is bellow ukraine. is the custom union deal with the eu the same as turkey or is it different?
    and what are the advantages for the ukraine which abides to the ECJ, over turkey ?

    Neither the UK nor Ukraine have a customs union deal with the EU. They have trade agreements.

    Ukraine indirectly comes under the CJEU's jurisdiction rather than directly, and only in a very limited way for the purposes of its Deep and Comprehensive Free Trade Agreement with the EU (DCFTA).

    Under this agreement, Ukraine has agreed to abide by and implement many of the Single Market rules.

    The Single Market is a union too, but for regulations rather than tariffs.

    Being in the Single Market, or implementing its rules, means you are covered by one set of rules which are valid in all the countries that implement those rules.

    This makes trade much easier.

    Imagine you make soap in France and export it to all the other countries in the EU.

    Within the Single Market, there is one set of rules, the Cosmetics Regulation, that govern safety standards for the production of cosmetic products, including soap, which includes rules about what ingredients you can and cannot use in soap.

    Without a Single Market, each of the 27 EU countries could have different safety standards for soap, with different rules about what ingredients you can and cannot use in soap.

    That would make trading far more difficult as you would have to know and comply with 27 sets of rules if you wanted to sell your soap in all 27 countries.

    In the Single Market you only have to know and comply with one set of rules and once your soap is approved for sale in France, it's approved for sale in all 27 EU countries, plus the other Single Market countries that are not in the EU.

    Ukraine is not in the EU and not in the Single Market, but it does implement Single Market type rules in some sectors and accepts indirect CJEU jurisdiction in effect. This makes it easier to export the Ukranian goods covered to the EU.

    In many cases, especially where goods are highly regulated and tariffs are low or abolished, having the same regulations is better than having no tariffs.

    For example, the Cheese Guy (see up thread) can send his cheese to the EU without his customers having to pay import tariffs. This would also be the case if the UK had a customs union with the EU that covered processed agricultural products, like Turkey has.

    But outside the Single Market, he has to pay for an Export Health Certificate to prove that his cheese meets EU standards. The cost of these is £180 per certificate in Britain.

    That's not too bad if he's sending a truck load of cheese worth £18,000 to the EU as you only need one certificate per consignment.

    But he also needs one certifucate per consigment when he sends a customer a gift pack of cheese worth £25.00.

    The fact that rhere are no import tariffs for his customers, and wouldn't be in a Turkey-EU style customs union between the UK and the EU, doesn't help him in this situation.

    So a customs union alone, let alone a trade agreement that abolishes tariffs, isn't enough to remove all barriers to trade.

    Non-tariff barriers, such as having different product standards, or having to provide certification for exports, can be even more expensive than tariffs.

    It's one of the major reasons behind the creation of the Single Market.

    The EEC had implemented a customs union between its members by the late 1960s (there was a transitional period from its foundation in 1957) but there were still too many non-tariff barriers to trade between member states.

    So the Single Market, implemented from 1993, abolished most of them and continues to abolish any remaining ones, mainly through regulatory harmonisation, having one set of rules applicable throughout the Single Market.

    Ukraine isn't in the Single Market but it aligns with it closely enough under its DCFTA provisions to make trade with the EU easier than just abolishing tariffs or having a customs union does.


  • #35
    Nate--IRL--
    Registered Users Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭Nate--IRL--


    Excellent and clear explanation.

    Nate


  • #36
    Enzokk
    Registered Users Posts: 5,551 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    So the current advice for companies struggling with red tape is to set up a new company within the EU.

    Set up shop in Europe, government advisers tell Brexit-hit businesses
    British businesses that export to the continent are being encouraged by government trade advisers to set up separate companies inside the EU in order to get around extra charges, paperwork and taxes resulting from Brexit, the Observer can reveal.

    In an extraordinary twist to the Brexit saga, UK small businesses are being told by advisers working for the Department for International Trade (DIT) that the best way to circumvent border issues and VAT problems that have been piling up since 1 January is to register new firms within the EU single market, from where they can distribute their goods far more freely.

    The heads of two UK businesses that have been beset by Brexit-related problems have told the Observer that, following advice from experts at the Department for International Trade, they have already decided to register new companies in the EU in the next few weeks, and they knew of many others in similar positions. Other companies have also said they too were advised by government officials to register operations in the EU but had not yet made decisions.

    I feel sorry for those that will lose their job to colleagues in EU countries, but they had a chance to rule out this scenario and they still voted for it in 2019.


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  • #37
    sondagefaux
    Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭sondagefaux


    Enzokk wrote: »
    So the current advice for companies struggling with red tape is to set up a new company within the EU.

    Set up shop in Europe, government advisers tell Brexit-hit businesses



    I feel sorry for those that will lose their job to colleagues in EU countries, but they had a chance to rule out this scenario and they still voted for it in 2019.

    Is this part if the Global Britain strategy?

    They'd want to hurry up before the British state dissolves.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/thesundaytimes/status/1353044013776035840


  • #38
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 12,914 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Enzokk wrote: »
    So the current advice for companies struggling with red tape is to set up a new company within the EU.

    Set up shop in Europe, government advisers tell Brexit-hit businesses



    I feel sorry for those that will lose their job to colleagues in EU countries, but they had a chance to rule out this scenario and they still voted for it in 2019.

    So, how soon before Liz Truss walks that back and sacks a few of them? Quite remarkable to see this, basically HMG waving the white flag. I suppose "Fcuk business" has had its effect on business. And they'll vote with their feet.


  • #39
    CelticRambler
    Registered Users Posts: 6,695 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    sondagefaux wrote: »
    The Single Market is a union too, but for regulations rather than tariffs.

    Being in the Single Market, or implementing its rules, means you are covered by one set of rules which are valid in all the countries that implement those rules.

    This makes trade much easier.

    In the context of people in GB suddenly waking up to the reality of Brexit, and demanding that someone does something about the problems, it's worth pointing out that harmonised, permanently aligned, rules and regulations are what the British Government really, really, really doesn't want to agree to. So what ministers are dismissing as "teething problems" are in fact permanent deformities.
    Enzokk wrote: »
    So the current advice for companies struggling with red tape is to set up a new company within the EU.

    From a companion article, here's another facepalm:
    But over the past three weeks he – like others – has had to confront another huge, potentially existential, problem resulting from Brexit that came out of the blue, and in a dark moment made him think of shutting the company down a fortnight ago.

    He discovered from customers in Europe that they were being asked by couriers to pay VAT upfront on the goods he was sending to them – as a condition, in effect, of getting customs clearance – and the customers, unsurprisingly, were refusing.

    Nothing "out of the blue" about that, as anyone with an ounce (or gramme) of import-export experience would know. :rolleyes: Yet again, someone (reporter or business man, hard to know to which should be attributed the phrase ...?) failing to appreciate how tightly integrated into the EU was the so-successful pre-Brexit economy.

    Now, will we see more and more examples of this over the full year ahead, or will upper lips be stiffened quickly and the population carry on?


  • #40
    tubercolossus
    Registered Users Posts: 155 ✭✭tubercolossus


    sondagefaux wrote: »
    Neither the UK nor Ukraine have a customs union deal with the EU. They have trade agreements.

    Ukraine indirectly comes under the CJEU's jurisdiction rather than directly, and only in a very limited way for the purposes of its Deep and Comprehensive Free Trade Agreement with the EU (DCFTA).

    Under this agreement, Ukraine has agreed to abide by and implement many of the Single Market rules.

    The Single Market is a union too, but for regulations rather than tariffs.

    Being in the Single Market, or implementing its rules, means you are covered by one set of rules which are valid in all the countries that implement those rules.

    This makes trade much easier.

    Imagine you make soap in France and export it to all the other countries in the EU.

    Within the Single Market, there is one set of rules, the Cosmetics Regulation, that govern safety standards for the production of cosmetic products, including soap, which includes rules about what ingredients you can and cannot use in soap.

    Without a Single Market, each of the 27 EU countries could have different safety standards for soap, with different rules about what ingredients you can and cannot use in soap.

    That would make trading far more difficult as you would have to know and comply with 27 sets of rules if you wanted to sell your soap in all 27 countries.

    In the Single Market you only have to know and comply with one set of rules and once your soap is approved for sale in France, it's approved for sale in all 27 EU countries, plus the other Single Market countries that are not in the EU.

    Ukraine is not in the EU and not in the Single Market, but it does implement Single Market type rules in some sectors and accepts indirect CJEU jurisdiction in effect. This makes it easier to export the Ukranian goods covered to the EU.

    In many cases, especially where goods are highly regulated and tariffs are low or abolished, having the same regulations is better than having no tariffs.

    For example, the Cheese Guy (see up thread) can send his cheese to the EU without his customers having to pay import tariffs. This would also be the case if the UK had a customs union with the EU that covered processed agricultural products, like Turkey has.

    But outside the Single Market, he has to pay for an Export Health Certificate to prove that his cheese meets EU standards. The cost of these is £180 per certificate in Britain.

    That's not too bad if he's sending a truck load of cheese worth £18,000 to the EU as you only need one certificate per consignment.

    But he also needs one certifucate per consigment when he sends a customer a gift pack of cheese worth £25.00.

    The fact that rhere are no import tariffs for his customers, and wouldn't be in a Turkey-EU style customs union between the UK and the EU, doesn't help him in this situation.

    So a customs union alone, let alone a trade agreement that abolishes tariffs, isn't enough to remove all barriers to trade.

    Non-tariff barriers, such as having different product standards, or having to provide certification for exports, can be even more expensive than tariffs.

    It's one of the major reasons behind the creation of the Single Market.

    The EEC had implemented a customs union between its members by the late 1960s (there was a transitional period from its foundation in 1957) but there were still too many non-tariff barriers to trade between member states.

    So the Single Market, implemented from 1993, abolished most of them and continues to abolish any remaining ones, mainly through regulatory harmonisation, having one set of rules applicable throughout the Single Market.

    Ukraine isn't in the Single Market but it aligns with it closely enough under its DCFTA provisions to make trade with the EU easier than just abolishing tariffs or having a customs union does.


    You know, I'm beginning to suspect that the EU might be rather good at all this trade regulation business. And vice versa for the UK.

    You might say they've bin done up like a UKIPPER!


  • #41
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    UK Government will be telling musicians to live in France to avoid red tape next.


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  • #42
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users Posts: 13,285 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    I'd guess the advice to set up in the EU isn't official advice, probably just a functionary who'd heard enough sob stories about export issues and decided to tell the businesses how they could get around it.

    Presumably it would actually work for Cheshire Cheese Man.
    Instead of sending £50 boxes that each require a £180 cert, send a weekly/monthly truck with a £15K block of cheese that still only requires one £180 certificate to a warehouse in Hamlet-de-France. Then as foreign orders come in send the details to Hamlet-de-France every day and get them to break it down to smaller product for sending to the EU customers.

    I think it works. Albeit he suddenly doesn't need quite as many staff in the UK and is instead employing French people to do the cutting, wrapping and posting, and these employees pay income tax to the French revenue. And all the VAT would also be paid to the French revenue.


  • #43
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    France and the Benelux countries could be on to a winner.


  • #44
    druss
    Registered Users Posts: 1,308 ✭✭✭druss


    Harry Palmr wrote: »
    UK Government will be telling musicians to live in France to avoid red tape next.

    I'm fairly sure that the Guardian article reference to "advice from experts at the Department for International Trade" means civil servants, as opposed to UK Government.

    And, in fairness, the experts can only recognise the reality of the situation. I'd imagine the UK government response would mumble about teething problems, COVID, and imply that the company had failed to prepare properly.


  • #45
    druss
    Registered Users Posts: 1,308 ✭✭✭druss


    ArmaniJeanss wrote: »
    I'd guess the advice to set up in the EU isn't official advice, probably just a functionary who'd heard enough sob stories about export issues and decided to tell the businesses how they could get around it.

    Presumably it would actually work for Cheshire Cheese Man.
    Instead of sending £50 boxes that each require a £180 cert, send a weekly/monthly truck with a £15K block of cheese that still only requires one £180 certificate to a warehouse in Hamlet-de-France. Then as foreign orders come in send the details to Hamlet-de-France every day and get them to break it down to smaller product for sending to the EU customers.

    I think it works. Albeit he suddenly doesn't need quite as many staff in the UK and is instead employing French people to do the cutting, wrapping and posting, and these employees pay income to the French revenue. And all the VAT would also be payed to the French revenue.

    Same conclusion. :) It's a rational response. Half a viable company is better than saying nothing and the company closing.


  • #46
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,340 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    druss wrote: »
    Same conclusion. :) It's a rational response. Half a viable company is better than saying nothing and the company closing.

    Basically it is a fulfilment centre. He sends a truck over filed with his £25 boxes, and one cert, and the centre then sends them out as requested.

    He needn't even own the centre. It could be operated by a logistics company like Amazon.


  • #47
    peter kern
    Registered Users Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭peter kern


    sondagefaux wrote: »
    Neither the UK nor Ukraine have a customs union deal with the EU. They have trade agreements.

    Ukraine indirectly comes under the CJEU's jurisdiction rather than directly, and only in a very limited way for the purposes of its Deep and Comprehensive Free Trade Agreement with the EU (DCFTA).

    Under this agreement, Ukraine has agreed to abide by and implement many of the Single Market rules.

    The Single Market is a union too, but for regulations rather than tariffs.

    Being in the Single Market, or implementing its rules, means you are covered by one set of rules which are valid in all the countries that implement those rules.

    This makes trade much easier.

    Imagine you make soap in France and export it to all the other countries in the EU.

    Within the Single Market, there is one set of rules, the Cosmetics Regulation, that govern safety standards for the production of cosmetic products, including soap, which includes rules about what ingredients you can and cannot use in soap.

    Without a Single Market, each of the 27 EU countries could have different safety standards for soap, with different rules about what ingredients you can and cannot use in soap.

    That would make trading far more difficult as you would have to know and comply with 27 sets of rules if you wanted to sell your soap in all 27 countries.

    In the Single Market you only have to know and comply with one set of rules and once your soap is approved for sale in France, it's approved for sale in all 27 EU countries, plus the other Single Market countries that are not in the EU.

    Ukraine is not in the EU and not in the Single Market, but it does implement Single Market type rules in some sectors and accepts indirect CJEU jurisdiction in effect. This makes it easier to export the Ukranian goods covered to the EU.

    In many cases, especially where goods are highly regulated and tariffs are low or abolished, having the same regulations is better than having no tariffs.

    For example, the Cheese Guy (see up thread) can send his cheese to the EU without his customers having to pay import tariffs. This would also be the case if the UK had a customs union with the EU that covered processed agricultural products, like Turkey has.

    But outside the Single Market, he has to pay for an Export Health Certificate to prove that his cheese meets EU standards. The cost of these is £180 per certificate in Britain.

    That's not too bad if he's sending a truck load of cheese worth £18,000 to the EU as you only need one certificate per consignment.

    But he also needs one certifucate per consigment when he sends a customer a gift pack of cheese worth £25.00.

    The fact that rhere are no import tariffs for his customers, and wouldn't be in a Turkey-EU style customs union between the UK and the EU, doesn't help him in this situation.

    So a customs union alone, let alone a trade agreement that abolishes tariffs, isn't enough to remove all barriers to trade.

    Non-tariff barriers, such as having different product standards, or having to provide certification for exports, can be even more expensive than tariffs.

    It's one of the major reasons behind the creation of the Single Market.

    The EEC had implemented a customs union between its members by the late 1960s (there was a transitional period from its foundation in 1957) but there were still too many non-tariff barriers to trade between member states.

    So the Single Market, implemented from 1993, abolished most of them and continues to abolish any remaining ones, mainly through regulatory harmonisation, having one set of rules applicable throughout the Single Market.

    Ukraine isn't in the Single Market but it aligns with it closely enough under its DCFTA provisions to make trade with the EU easier than just abolishing tariffs or having a customs union does.

    thanks a mil ! really appreciated.


  • #48
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,657 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Covid has made shipping from China more expensive. But Brexit adds to that. It could be understood if it was protectionism, but most UK manufacturing offshored yonks ago.
    One shipping line recently offered freight rates of $12,050 for a 40ft container from China to Southampton, but charged just $8,450 for the same container to travel from China to Rotterdam, Hamburg, or Antwerp.
    ...
    "Most of the carriers just don't want UK cargo because of the issues when the vessels dock, so mainly they're favouring European ports and we are having to truck containers over," said freight forwarder Craig Poole.

    He said that adds a cost of up to £2,000 per container, and takes an extra seven to ten days to reach the delivery point in the UK.

    For business-owners like Helen White, the difficulties affecting the shipping industry can't be solved quickly enough.

    "Lots of little start-ups are really hurting," she said. "It has been paired with logistical nightmares across Europe as well. It just feels like logistics is falling apart at the moment. It's hard to see where the resolution is."


  • #49
    mrunsure
    Registered Users Posts: 182 ✭✭mrunsure


    Are there any statistics showing what proportion of Irish citizens have taken advantage of free movement, other than to go to the UK? It would be interesting to compare that to the proportion of UK citizens who did the same, other than to go to Ireland.


  • #50
    breezy1985
    Registered Users Posts: 24,300 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    mrunsure wrote: »
    Are there any statistics showing what proportion of Irish citizens have taken advantage of free movement, other than to go to the UK? It would be interesting to compare that to the proportion of UK citizens who did the same, other than to go to Ireland.

    If we are talking about people going to work I would say the Irish would outweigh the English in most places except maybe Germany. But that's just going on my own experiences.

    Retiring to the Mediterranean would be a different story I would say though


  • #51
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,575 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    mrunsure wrote: »
    Are there any statistics showing what proportion of Irish citizens have taken advantage of free movement, other than to go to the UK? It would be interesting to compare that to the proportion of UK citizens who did the same, other than to go to Ireland.

    There are more Brits in EU nations than any other nationalities across the EU 27.

    Which is why it's more odd they've killed fom because they were the biggest users


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  • #52
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,340 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Covid has made shipping from China more expensive. But Brexit adds to that. It could be understood if it was protectionism, but most UK manufacturing offshored yonks ago.
    One shipping line recently offered freight rates of $12,050 for a 40ft container from China to Southampton, but charged just $8,450 for the same container to travel from China to Rotterdam, Hamburg, or Antwerp.
    ...
    "Most of the carriers just don't want UK cargo because of the issues when the vessels dock, so mainly they're favouring European ports and we are having to truck containers over," said freight forwarder Craig Poole.

    He said that adds a cost of up to £2,000 per container, and takes an extra seven to ten days to reach the delivery point in the UK.

    For business-owners like Helen White, the difficulties affecting the shipping industry can't be solved quickly enough.

    "Lots of little start-ups are really hurting," she said. "It has been paired with logistical nightmares across Europe as well. It just feels like logistics is falling apart at the moment. It's hard to see where the resolution is."

    I would have thought the resolution is obvious enough. Rejoin the SM or CU or both - PDQ.


  • #53
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,359 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    I would have thought the resolution is obvious enough. Rejoin the SM or CU or both - PDQ.

    This Tory government will never do that. They'd rather see the place burn to the ground and rule the ashes than admit that their hard Brexit was a mistake.


  • #54
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,065 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    listermint wrote: »
    There are more Brits in EU nations than any other nationalities across the EU 27.

    Which is why it's more odd they've killed fom because they were the biggest users

    Would you have a source for that? I'd be quite interested.

    As for those who voted to leave, they tended to not be the sort of people who used free movement beyond the odd holiday with the notable of villa owners in Spain.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • #55
    breezy1985
    Registered Users Posts: 24,300 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    listermint wrote: »
    There are more Brits in EU nations than any other nationalities across the EU 27.

    Which is why it's more odd they've killed fom because they were the biggest users

    More Brits or more Brits per head of population. You would expect them to be at least near the top of it's just simple numbers


  • #56
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,065 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    breezy1985 wrote: »
    More Brits or more Brits per head of population. You would expect them to be at least near the top of it's just simple numbers

    I found this:
    In 2019, according to UN data, 1.3 million people born in the UK lived in EU countries. Spain hosted the largest group, at 302,000, followed by Ireland, with 293,000. France was third with 177,000, Germany was fourth with 99,000 and Italy was fifth with 66,000.

    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/the-facts/how-many-british-citizens-live-in-the-eu/

    Surely, the citizens of some other nation have more citizens in other EU countries than this?

    I suppose it's a mark of how farcical this whole project is that the government telling firms to set up in the EU is barely newsworthy.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • #57
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,340 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I found this:



    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/the-facts/how-many-british-citizens-live-in-the-eu/

    Surely, the citizens of some other nation have more citizens in other EU countries than this?

    I suppose it's a mark of how farcical this whole project is that the government telling firms to set up in the EU is barely newsworthy.

    However, Ornua set up a cheese packing plant in the UK so the Wexford cheese I buy in Tescos in Ireland is packed in the UK. Of course that dates to before the Brexit agreement.

    I am not sure what will happen in the future, but the cheese maker in the UK could set up a packing plant in Normandy.


  • #58
    mrunsure
    Registered Users Posts: 182 ✭✭mrunsure


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I found this:



    https://ukandeu.ac.uk/the-facts/how-many-british-citizens-live-in-the-eu/

    Surely, the citizens of some other nation have more citizens in other EU countries than this?

    Well I thought there were once more than a million Poles in the UK alone? Of course a lot of them have left.

    What I'm really interested in is the proportion of people who have taken advantage of free movement at any time, so they might have gone back to the UK or Ireland. I guess this is harder to calculate. The only figure I've seen regarding the UK is that approximately 1 in 60 people have taken advantage of free movement which seems really low, especially if it includes Ireland.


  • #59
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,065 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    However, Ornua set up a cheese packing plant in the UK so the Wexford cheese I buy in Tescos in Ireland is packed in the UK. Of course that dates to before the Brexit agreement.

    I am not sure what will happen in the future, but the cheese maker in the UK could set up a packing plant in Normandy.

    Could they not just set up in Ireland for shorter supply chains or are they looking to cut delivery costs to bigger continental markets?

    Poland has apparently the most expats in EU countries based on admittedly old data:

    large_u82middwOmi5l8VXVL5xD9RrMaaJZtVlAgGmli7zINs.png

    The UK has more citizens living abroad of any EU country but this includes non-EU nations:

    large_uZ47oCLjds-gUMs5ocENgK_XNP8N_xziQnR3bhEpJlk.png

    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/07/which-eu-country-has-the-largest-number-of-citizens-living-overseas/#:~:text=The%20European%20picture&text=In%20fact%20Poland%20has%20nearly,EU%20than%20the%20UK%20does.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • #60
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,359 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Could they not just set up in Ireland for shorter supply chains or are they looking to cut delivery costs to bigger continental markets?

    Poland has apparently the most expats in EU countries based on admittedly old data:

    large_u82middwOmi5l8VXVL5xD9RrMaaJZtVlAgGmli7zINs.png

    The UK has more citizens living abroad of any EU country but this includes non-EU nations:

    large_uZ47oCLjds-gUMs5ocENgK_XNP8N_xziQnR3bhEpJlk.png

    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/07/which-eu-country-has-the-largest-number-of-citizens-living-overseas/#:~:text=The%20European%20picture&text=In%20fact%20Poland%20has%20nearly,EU%20than%20the%20UK%20does.

    Portugal aside, Ireland has more people living abroad per capita than any other country in that graphic. Its rate is nearly 2.5 times that of the UK.


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  • #61
    mrunsure
    Registered Users Posts: 182 ✭✭mrunsure


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    Portugal aside, Ireland has more people living abroad per capita than any other country in that graphic. Its rate is nearly 2.5 times that of the UK.

    Where are the Irish living?


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