UK licence after Brexit

nomdeboardie · 23-02-2019 5:40pm

donkey balls wrote: »

I don't see a problem with either the DVLA or NDLS in questioning someone habitual residence, One thing though regarding the insurance companies is if you declare a full Irish licence and involved in a tip and you have a UK or euro one they might try and get out of paying out.

Hopefully, (though not sure about the hypothetical situation I mentioned re driving temporarily again in the UK). I've always declared my licence to be UK and never had it questioned by insurance companies - first company took a copy, and I've given licence number when asked when moving to new companies etc. I was told once or twice that the premium would be a bit cheaper or that I could gat an older car covered if my licence were Irish, I think, so I realise that was already a consideration (before Brexit).

donkey balls · 23-02-2019 6:13pm

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with having a UK licence and it's normally a question asked by insurance companies.

[Deleted User] · 23-02-2019 6:47pm

donkey balls wrote: »

I don't see a problem with either the DVLA or NDLS in questioning someone habitual residence, One thing though regarding the insurance companies is if you declare a full Irish licence and involved in a tip and you have a UK or euro one they might try and get out of paying out.

The Irish companies don’t really care if it’s irish or UK, in fact many companies just have “full irish/UK” on their drop down. Other EU licenses are different.

Isambard · 23-02-2019 7:49pm

Mateo Mammoth Mask wrote: »

The Irish companies don’t really care if it’s irish or UK, in fact many companies just have “full irish/UK” on their drop down. Other EU licenses are different.

may change with Brexit though...

[Deleted User] · 23-02-2019 8:40pm

Isambard wrote: »

may change with Brexit though...

Definitely I’d say....

sunnysoutheast · 23-02-2019 8:59pm

nomdeboardie wrote: »

I assume this means that if a UK licence-holder who has been living in Ireland for many years then drives while on holiday in the UK they could be in trouble if stopped by police (even before Brexit)? Anyone reading been in this situation?

Also, if the licence is exchanged for an Irish one, and in the process is sent back to the UK DVLA, I assume they (the DVLA) don't start asking questions about when the holder left the UK address on the document?

Don't think so, my wife exchanged her UK licence with no issue and the address was way out of date.

My cousin in the UK was involved in an RTA and the cop at the scene gave him the third degree because the address on his licence was out of date, threatened him with prosecution etc. for it. It can be a fairly big fine I think. I guess it would only be an issue if you're involved in an incident/stopped though. Seems to be the question they ask "Is this address still current?" as the Garda who gave me the speeding ticket in 2015 asked the same thing. He also asked what football team I supported (I don't really) and it was the same as the one he supported so there was some rapport there I thought. Still got the FCPN through though.

wonski · 23-02-2019 9:11pm

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

Don't think so, my wife exchanged her UK licence with no issue and the address was way out of date.

My cousin in the UK was involved in an RTA and the cop at the scene gave him the third degree because the address on his licence was out of date, threatened him with prosecution etc. for it. It can be a fairly big fine I think. I guess it would only be an issue if you're involved in an incident/stopped though. Seems to be the question they ask "Is this address still current?" as the Garda who gave me the speeding ticket in 2015 asked the same thing. He also asked what football team I supported (I don't really) and it was the same as the one he supported so there was some rapport there I thought. Still got the FCPN through though.

It's like saying you won't have an issue driving without license unless stopped or being involved in rta. Or drink driving.

It's technically correct, but shows that there is an issue at the same time.

sunnysoutheast · 23-02-2019 9:14pm

wonski wrote: »

It's like saying you won't have an issue driving without license unless stopped or being involved in rta. Or drink driving.

It's technically correct, but shows that there is an issue at the same time.

As I understand it the licence itself is still valid, but the specific offence is having an out-of-date address on it.

[Deleted User] · 23-02-2019 9:42pm

Sure how is it even defined or proven what your address is? My address for everything, bank, license, bills, revenue, car VLC etc is my home house never changed anything since I was born basically (obviously many things I didn’t have when I was born but the point I’m making is clear). I actually live there most of the time now again but for about 8 of the last 10 years I’ve been in a few different house shares/address and only at home maybe 2/3 weekend a month. Fact is I’d struggle to prove I lived anywhere but at home even though I was only there at weekends and holidays really.

I think the key is if you have access to the address or not really.

wonski · 23-02-2019 9:53pm

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

As I understand it the licence itself is still valid, but the specific offence is having an out-of-date address on it.

Oh it is valid, but I rather have a license that will let me drive without being worried about being stopped. Chances are low though if you don't do anything stupid.

jimbev · 23-02-2019 10:03pm

I think when the dust has settled on brexit there will be a mutual understanding through out Europe on UK driving licenses
They will be able to make it just as hard for EU licences in the UK and what about the headache of commuting into Northern Ireland everyday

sunnysoutheast · 23-02-2019 10:30pm

jimbev wrote: »

I think when the dust has settled on brexit there will be a mutual understanding through out Europe on UK driving licenses
They will be able to make it just as hard for EU licences in the UK and what about the headache of commuting into Northern Ireland everyday

I'd agree that in due course the mutual recognition will continue.

However, as things stand, the UK will leave the EU on Mar. 29th @11:00PM so all such current arrangements will stop. Hence the urgency.

coylemj · 24-02-2019 1:09am

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

I'd agree that in due course the mutual recognition will continue.

However, as things stand, the UK will leave the EU on Mar. 29th @11:00PM so all such current arrangements will stop. Hence the urgency.

Urgency? Like the Gardai will turn back UK tourists when they drive off the ferries in Dublin and Rosslare after March 29th because they won't have an EU driving licence?

My sister and her husband are planning to drive to Wales in April next. She sent me an e-mail expressing concern about her driving licence i.e. driving in the UK with an Irish driving licence - the reverse of the OP's scenario which queries the issue of driving in Ireland with a UK licence after Brexit.

This was my response ..............

If you're going to have a problem driving with an Irish licence in the UK, so will the thousands of French, Dutch and German tourists who drive their cars off the Calais ferries and the Channel Tunnel trains every day. Not forgetting the continental truck drivers transporting components manufactured in mainland Europe to the Nissan Factory in Sunderland (9,000 workers) and the Dutch trucks bringing tomatoes to the Heinz baked bean factory in Wigan (2,000 workers). The UK would quickly grind to a halt if that happened.

Unless you think the UK cops are going to blockade the ports and turn away trucks and cars where the driver does not have a UK driving licence, you have nothing to worry about.

Charles Babbage · 24-02-2019 1:19am

Driving to Wales, I'd worry more about insurance than the driving licence.

two wheels good · 24-02-2019 1:37am

"UK driving licences will not be valid in Ireland under no-deal Brexit"
Recently reported in the Guardian

"Ireland will no longer recognise the UK driving licences of people living in Ireland in the event of a no-deal Brexit.

The Road Safety Authority of Ireland, a state agency, said this week a mutual recognition agreement would end and that holders of British licences would need to swap them for Irish licences before the UK is due to leave the EU on 29 March."

“In the event of a no-deal Brexit (my emphasis)the driving licence of a UK licence holder living here in Ireland will not be recognised and the driver will not be able to continue to drive here in Ireland on that licence,” the National Driver Licence Service, which issues permits, said in a statement"

wonski · 24-02-2019 1:56am

coylemj wrote: »

Urgency? Like the Gardai will turn back UK tourists when they drive off the ferries in Dublin and Rosslare after March 29th because they won't have an EU driving licence?

My sister and her husband are planning to drive to Wales in April next. She sent me an e-mail expressing concern about her driving licence i.e. driving in the UK with an Irish driving licence - the reverse of the OP's scenario which queries the issue of driving in Ireland with a UK licence after Brexit.

This was my response ..............

If you're going to have a problem driving with an Irish licence in the UK, so will the thousands of French, Dutch and German tourists who drive their cars off the Calais ferries and the Channel Tunnel trains every day. Not forgetting the continental truck drivers transporting components manufactured in mainland Europe to the Nissan Factory in Sunderland (9,000 workers) and the Dutch trucks bringing tomatoes to the Heinz baked bean factory in Wigan (2,000 workers). The UK would quickly grind to a halt if that happened.

Unless you think the UK cops are going to blockade the ports and turn away trucks and cars where the driver does not have a UK driving licence, you have nothing to worry about.

There is a difference between tourists and locals. Of course your driving license is valid when you are visiting or driving for a living between UK and Ireland.

If however you live in Ireland and have UK license it will be as good as us license.

Isambard · 24-02-2019 9:52am

two wheels good wrote: »

"UK driving licences will not be valid in Ireland under no-deal Brexit"
Recently reported in the Guardian

"Ireland will no longer recognise the UK driving licences of people living in Ireland in the event of a no-deal Brexit.

The Road Safety Authority of Ireland, a state agency, said this week a mutual recognition agreement would end and that holders of British licences would need to swap them for Irish licences before the UK is due to leave the EU on 29 March."

“In the event of a no-deal Brexit (my emphasis)the driving licence of a UK licence holder living here in Ireland will not be recognised and the driver will not be able to continue to drive here in Ireland on that licence,” the National Driver Licence Service, which issues permits, said in a statement"

well, no one can say what a Brexit agreement might contain. It may permit UK licenses to be used by Irish reseidents, it may not. But the thing is, unless there is a specific agreement for UK license holders living in Ireland to use them here, then those license holders may be in the same position as US drivers who have to take a test. (If there's no deal, I'd say that would be a certainty

Marcusm · 24-02-2019 12:14pm

coylemj wrote: »

Urgency? Like the Gardai will turn back UK tourists when they drive off the ferries in Dublin and Rosslare after March 29th because they won't have an EU driving licence?

My sister and her husband are planning to drive to Wales in April next. She sent me an e-mail expressing concern about her driving licence i.e. driving in the UK with an Irish driving licence - the reverse of the OP's scenario which queries the issue of driving in Ireland with a UK licence after Brexit.

This was my response ..............

If you're going to have a problem driving with an Irish licence in the UK, so will the thousands of French, Dutch and German tourists who drive their cars off the Calais ferries and the Channel Tunnel trains every day. Not forgetting the continental truck drivers transporting components manufactured in mainland Europe to the Nissan Factory in Sunderland (9,000 workers) and the Dutch trucks bringing tomatoes to the Heinz baked bean factory in Wigan (2,000 workers). The UK would quickly grind to a halt if that happened.

Unless you think the UK cops are going to blockade the ports and turn away trucks and cars where the driver does not have a UK driving licence, you have nothing to worry about.

Absolutely nothing to do with tourists. Solely related to Irish residents (if whatever citizenship) who drive in Ireland on a mutual recognition basis on a U.K. licence.

Marcusm · 24-02-2019 12:17pm

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I'm referring to a scenario where a person doesn't exchange their licence but starts at the beginning in the second country - learner permit, test etc and obtains a licence for that country also (as my brother has done).

donkey balls wrote: »

Absolutely nothing wrong with going through the process again from start and obtaining another driving licence.

Both incorrect. The only basis for holding two EU licences is if they cover different categories. When applying for a licence you are required to make a declaration (subject to criminal penalties) that you do not have an existing EU licence.

Squidgy Black · 24-02-2019 12:20pm

It's quite terrifying that somehow people are interpreting this as the Irish government saying they're going to refuse to recognise a UK resident has a valid driving license when visiting Ireland.

sunnysoutheast · 24-02-2019 12:30pm

coylemj wrote: »

Urgency? Like the Gardai will turn back UK tourists when they drive off the ferries in Dublin and Rosslare after March 29th because they won't have an EU driving licence?

My sister and her husband are planning to drive to Wales in April next. She sent me an e-mail expressing concern about her driving licence i.e. driving in the UK with an Irish driving licence - the reverse of the OP's scenario which queries the issue of driving in Ireland with a UK licence after Brexit.

This was my response ..............

If you're going to have a problem driving with an Irish licence in the UK, so will the thousands of French, Dutch and German tourists who drive their cars off the Calais ferries and the Channel Tunnel trains every day. Not forgetting the continental truck drivers transporting components manufactured in mainland Europe to the Nissan Factory in Sunderland (9,000 workers) and the Dutch trucks bringing tomatoes to the Heinz baked bean factory in Wigan (2,000 workers). The UK would quickly grind to a halt if that happened.

Unless you think the UK cops are going to blockade the ports and turn away trucks and cars where the driver does not have a UK driving licence, you have nothing to worry about.

The urgency is for Irish residents driving on a UK licence, which was the OP's scenario. As I said, as things stand, the mutual recognition will stop if there is a no-deal Brexit.

People in this scenario can roll the dice and bank on a deal of some sort being made, which will start the transition period, or that the mutual recognition will be put in place before the 29th if they like, I'm not risking it.

coylemj · 24-02-2019 5:17pm

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Driving to Wales, I'd worry more about insurance than the driving licence.

Irish motor policies have always included cover to drive in NI, GB, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. This level of cover predates 1973 (when UK, Ireland and Denmark joined the EEC) and is not conditional on the UK's membership of the EU so will not be affected by Brexit.

Download any Irish motor policy document, search for the word 'channel' and you'll see what I mean. EU and mainland Europe are treated differently from GB.

Charles Babbage · 24-02-2019 7:57pm

coylemj wrote: »

Irish motor policies have always included cover to drive in NI, GB, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. This level of cover predates 1973 (when UK, Ireland and Denmark joined the EEC) and is not conditional on the UK's membership of the EU so will not be affected by Brexit.

Download any Irish motor policy document, search for the word 'channel' and you'll see what I mean. EU and mainland Europe are treated differently from GB.

Policies were required to fully include NI from about 1960 or so, but I am less certain that there was any requirement to include GB on the same basis, even if this was usual.

coylemj · 24-02-2019 11:29pm

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Policies were required to fully include NI from about 1960 or so, but I am less certain that there was any requirement to include GB on the same basis, even if this was usual.

I don't think (and I never suggested) that Irish insurance companies were ever forced to include cover for driving in GB. I suspect that since they drive on the left and the signs are all in English, the Irish insurance companies never perceived driving over there as carrying any greater risk so they gave the cover as standard. It also saved the paperwork which would have been required to give people cover with new certs. where they intended go take the ferries over.

Though I always wondered why the Channel Islands were included as I can't imagine anyone from here bringing a car to Jersey or Guernsey.

Charles Babbage · 25-02-2019 12:16am

coylemj wrote: »

I don't think (and I never suggested) that Irish insurance companies were ever forced to include cover for driving in GB. I suspect that since they drive on the left and the signs are all in English, the Irish insurance companies never perceived driving over there as carrying any greater risk so they gave the cover as standard. It also saved the paperwork which would have been required to give people cover with new certs. where they intended go take the ferries over.

Though I always wondered why the Channel Islands were included as I can't imagine anyone from here bringing a car to Jersey or Guernsey.

The risk might be the same, the legal system similar and so no real basis for difference, but that doesn' mean that some companies (not all) might not pass the opportunity to charge you extra.

[Deleted User] · 27-02-2019 10:28am

Just on a point of information on this the UK Government have confirmed all EU licenses will remain valid in the UK both for tourists and residents, whatever happens in the next few months.

I am struggling to understand why our Government can't do the same? What's the point of this announcement? I appreciate it might take some time to get relevant changes in law passed but they could at least indicate an aspiration to do so.

As it stands, to me it looks like punishing people on UK licenses (many of whom are Irish of course) for the sake of making some sort of political point. I hope that isn't the case, but I can't understand any other reason for this.

[Deleted User] · 27-02-2019 10:37am

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Well considering how little ****s the UK government is giving about Ireland id say if it is a political point by the Irish government then fair play.

Yeah, inconveniencing Irish citizens in order to get one back at the UK Government. Fair play indeed.

MascotDec85 · 27-02-2019 10:43am

A reply from Mairead McGuinness:

Hi Andy,
Thanks for getting in touch. The Commission's advice for holders of UK licenses driving in the EU is that the mutual recognition of driving licences by member states for the UK will no longer be compulsory under EU law. Therefore the Commission advises to contact the responsible authorities in the member state (see page 19 of the Commission's preparedness notice on travelling here: https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/file_import/travelling_en.pdf).
So the link you sent from the NDLS is the most appropriate advice to follow, and it might be best to exchange your licence before 29 March.
If the Withdrawal Agreement is ratified, then the mutual recognition of licences will continue during the transition period, until the end of 2020.
Kind regards,
Mairead

GM228 · 27-02-2019 10:49am

Deleted User wrote: »

Just on a point of information on this the UK Government have confirmed all EU licenses will remain valid in the UK both for tourists and residents, whatever happens in the next few months.

I am struggling to understand why our Government can't do the same? What's the point of this announcement? I appreciate it might take some time to get relevant changes in law passed but they could at least indicate an aspiration to do so.

As it stands, to me it looks like punishing people on UK licenses (many of whom are Irish of course) for the sake of making some sort of political point. I hope that isn't the case, but I can't understand any other reason for this.

The Irish Government has already previously confirmed that they will be recognised somewhere, I'll dig it out.

There's so much scare mongering regarding licences that they (the EU, Ireland and the UK) seem to forget to mention that both the EUs individual countries have recognised each others driving licences since signing up to the 1968 Vienna Convention on Road Traffic (or the 1949 Geneva Convention on Road Traffic), this is separate to the EUs mutual recognition of driving licences.

There's also the question of weather or not the UK will still be part of the EEA, if they do then the licence issue does not arise.

EDIT:

Both Ireland and the EU have confirmed this already several months ago:-

https://www.dfa.ie/media/dfa/eu/brexit/brexitcontingency/No-Deal-Brexit-Contingency-Action-Plan-December-18.pdf

19. Are UK driving licences going to be recognised in the EU in a no deal scenario?

In a no-deal scenario, UK driving licences will be recognised in the European Union (and vice-versa) on the basis of the 1968 Vienna Convention on Road Traffic (and the 1949 Geneva Convention on Road Traffic in the case of Ireland, Cyprus, Malta and Spain).

And from the EU themselves:-

https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/brexit_files/info_site/travelling.pdf

6.1. Driving licences

According to Union law, driving licences issued by Member States of the EU are mutually recognised. As of the withdrawal date, this mutual recognition will no longer be compulsory as a matter of EU law. Instead, an international agreement, the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic, will apply.

The United Kingdom and all but four Member States (Ireland, Cyprus, Malta and Spain) are parties to this Convention which provides for the recognition of national driving licences and international driving permits issued by contracting states in accordance with this Convention.

The four EU Member States (Ireland, Cyprus, Malta and Spain) which are not parties to the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic are parties to a previous international agreement, to which the United Kingdom is also a party.This agreement provides for the recognition of driving licences, but parties to this agreement may also require the holders of driving licences to be in possession of an International Driving Permit.

Holders of UK driving licences who intend to drive in the EU are therefore advised to contact the responsible Member State authorities regarding the recognition rules for driving licences. Holders of European Union driving licences who intend to drive in the United Kingdom are advised to contact the responsible authority in the United Kingdom regarding the recognition rules for their driving licences.

Article 24 of the 1949 Convention (applicable to Ireland) states:-

https://treaties.un.org/doc/Treaties/1952/03/19520326%2003-36%20PM/Ch_XI_B_1_2_3.pdf

1. Each Contracting State shall allow any driver admitted to its territory who fulfils the conditions which are set out in annex 8 and who holds a valid driving permit issued to him, after he has given proof of his competence, by the competent authority of another Contracting State or subdivision thereof, or by an association duly empowered by such authority, to drive on its roads without further examination motor vehicles of the category or categories defined in annexes 9 and 10 for which the permit has been issued.

The requirement for an IDP as mentioned by the EU is optional under Article 24.2, Ireland does not require such.

I hope that clarifies the situation as it stands.

CJhaughey · 27-02-2019 11:29am

GM228 wrote: »

The Irish Government has already previously confirmed that they will be recognised somewhere, I'll dig it out.

There's so much scare mongering regarding licences that they (the EU, Ireland and the UK) seem to forget to mention that both the EUs individual countries have recognised each others driving licences since signing up to the 1968 Vienna Convention on Road Traffic (or the 1949 Geneva Convention on Road Traffic), this is separate to the EUs mutual recognition of driving licences.

There's also the question of weather or not the UK will still be part of the EEA, if they do then the licence issue does not arise.

EDIT:

Both Ireland and the EU have confirmed this already several months ago:-

https://www.dfa.ie/media/dfa/eu/brexit/brexitcontingency/No-Deal-Brexit-Contingency-Action-Plan-December-18.pdf

And from the EU themselves:-

https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/brexit_files/info_site/travelling.pdf

Article 24 of the 1949 Convention (applicable to Ireland) states:-

https://treaties.un.org/doc/Treaties/1952/03/19520326%2003-36%20PM/Ch_XI_B_1_2_3.pdf

The requirement for an IDP as mentioned by the EU is optional under Article 24.2, Ireland does not require such.

I hope that clarifies the situation as it stands.

So the statement by the RSA is not really factual?

UK licence after Brexit

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