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Proposals from Deer Alliance for future seasons
Comments
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cookimonster wrote: »Yes we don't pay for deer hunting licences, why should we?, infact why shouldn't we.
Let's see, the applicant at present is sent a printed application form via the post service (there is an option to download a form from a website at your own expense. The form is processed by an employee in the office and if needs be a secound employee is involved to verify the validity of the application with a site visit before the license is printed off and posted to you.
So the proposal of, what is it €85.00, every three years or more precisely €28.33 per year seems steep.
Well let me put it this way, and I know the neigh-sayers will dismiss this out of hand, an online application for a hunting licence in France is done automatically and you print off your own licence at the end of it for the princely sum of €82.99. So basically you are only paying for the up keep of the website, no public sector workers in the office, no wildlife rangers driving up to the permission/s and no over heads for your very own application.
Hay, I don't particularly want to pay out more money, but I'm still surprised that we are not paying some sort of admin charge.
FYI-
The price of €82.99 is for a nine day permit in only one region of the country. Residents pay through the same system a yearly cost for a departmental license flof around €150 while a national permit is €447. This was promised to be reduce by 50%, as yet I'm not sure as to the out come.
Again as you said yourself this fee pays for the upkeep of the website ie it is ringfenced.. we dont do that here.. so the fee wouldnt pay for the system !!! So apples and oranges really.
What part of the whole ringfenced /hypothecate funding are people not understanding0 -
hiddenmongoose wrote: »Again as you said yourself this fee pays for the upkeep of the website ie it is ringfenced..
Not quite the point I was trying to make. The issuing of licensing in this case is a financial burden on the organisation. At present all our hunting licences and other relevant permits are free and no doubt there are plenty more licences and permits issued annually by that department other then hunting. We can claim our taxes pay for them, but that's a well worn argument.
My point with the French system is the cost of a single piece of paper, done via an automated system. So we are 100% getting value for money with the current system (ignoring strange times here) and the annual proposed cost is a mere pittance compared to the overheads involved.
The new online passport system is excellent , money has been invested and technology moved forward. The NPWS applications for renewals can be off loaded to commercial entities such as seen with the FAC, while new applicants will still require assessment.0 -
cookimonster wrote: »Not quite the point I was trying to make. The issuing of licensing in this case is a financial burden on the organisation. At present all our hunting licences and other relevant permits are free and no doubt there are plenty more licences and permits issued annually by that department other then hunting. We can claim our taxes pay for them, but that's a well worn argument.
My point with the French system is the cost of a single piece of paper, done via an automated system. So we are 100% getting value for money with the current system (ignoring strange times here) and the annual proposed cost is a mere pittance compared to the overheads involved.
The new online passport system is excellent , money has been invested and technology moved forward. The NPWS applications for renewals can be off loaded to commercial entities such as seen with the FAC, while new applicants will still require assessment.
Pity they cannot do the same for gun licences. Its still the same cluster fcuk its always been.0 -
cookimonster wrote: »Not quite the point I was trying to make. The issuing of licensing in this case is a financial burden on the organisation. At present all our hunting licences and other relevant permits are free and no doubt there are plenty more licences and permits issued annually by that department other then hunting. We can claim our taxes pay for them, but that's a well worn argument.
My point with the French system is the cost of a single piece of paper, done via an automated system. So we are 100% getting value for money with the current system (ignoring strange times here) and the annual proposed cost is a mere pittance compared to the overheads involved.
The new online passport system is excellent , money has been invested and technology moved forward. The NPWS applications for renewals can be off loaded to commercial entities such as seen with the FAC, while new applicants will still require assessment.
So are you advocating for a fee? if so how will this fee improve things?0 -
hiddenmongoose wrote: »So are you advocating for a fee? if so how will this fee improve things?
No I am not advocating for a fee, hence:Hay, I don't particularly want to pay out more money, but I'm still surprised that we are not paying some sort of admin charge.
I am as above surprised especially in the last few decades with economic ups and downs that it hasn't come in already, even for the existing system.
Normally if something is given for free it holds little value for either party. There is a sense of entitlement and begrudgery again from both parties. A nominal fee can improve both outlooks.
The out come if proper investment is made, and we have to give the benefit of the doubt here, is that the annual renewal system is simplified and reduces the burden on both the applicants and those who process such applications.
For example the likes of the NARGC can process and return a whole clubs renewal with in a day or so of receiving the paperwork. So that's, paperwork , obviously backed up by software connected to hardware that spits out membership cards.
I for one would rather apply on line with an interactive system then have to do the relevant paper and leg work.0 -
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Okay, so let's all forget about any suggestion of a fee. ..
What can we agree on, and what are we prepared to actually try and act on, aside from squabbling here on the website?
Is everyone supportive of emailing the Minister objecting to a private enterprise running training courses?
Is everyone willing to email the Minister specifically objecting to a certain individual and / or a certain organisation claiming to represent Hunters?
Is everyone supportive of calling for the immediate introduction of an online application process, that would save our details and allow log on via username, similar to the motor tax system, for example ?
... a 3 year term?
... a simple confirmation that we continue to hold permission from various land owners and to provide the landowners contact details, if someone wants to verify our claims?
Anything else?Thanks,
G.
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Okay, so let's all forget about any suggestion of a fee. ..
What can we agree on, and what are we prepared to actually try and act on, aside from squabbling here on the website?
Is everyone supportive of emailing the Minister objecting to a private enterprise running training courses?
Is everyone willing to email the Minister specifically objecting to a certain individual and / or a certain organisation claiming to represent Hunters?
Is everyone supportive of calling for the immediate introduction of an online application process, that would save our details and allow log on via username, similar to the motor tax system, for example ?
... a 3 year term?
... a simple confirmation that we continue to hold permission from various land owners and to provide the landowners contact details, if someone wants to verify our claims?
Anything else?
Sounds good.0 -
Okay, so let's all forget about any suggestion of a fee. ..
What can we agree on, and what are we prepared to actually try and act on, aside from squabbling here on the website?
Is everyone supportive of emailing the Minister objecting to a private enterprise running training courses?
Is everyone willing to email the Minister specifically objecting to a certain individual and / or a certain organisation claiming to represent Hunters?
Is everyone supportive of calling for the immediate introduction of an online application process, that would save our details and allow log on via username, similar to the motor tax system, for example ?
... a 3 year term?
... a simple confirmation that we continue to hold permission from various land owners and to provide the landowners contact details, if someone wants to verify our claims?
Anything else?
Good man Garrett, you've covered a lot there.
Let's see if we get anymore points that most people are in agreement with and we can start firing off emails then. I'd be inclined to write to local TD's as well in the hope they will make representations to the Minister too."Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."
Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.
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1]Decide first on what are we wiling to negoiate on,compromise on and what are uncrossable line in the sand issues for us.We need a full consensus going forward before we appoach anyone in offical dom
2]The abolition or make it a once-off requirement to inform the dept of rifle&ammo details.
3] Non-agreement with mandatory courses post 10 years of holding an Irish liscense or UK,US or EU.IOW refusal of the non grandfathering clause.
4] Include bag returns to be done online.
5] If we are going to be paying fees,then the foreshore liscenses as a biggger body of shooters get included in the computer as well at the same price for 5 years..Fairs fair,and it is a bargining chip that needs to be considerd. Otherwise we are going to be carrying them as eventually they will be included in the machine as well.
6] Make it a claer point that certain organisations do NOT speak for the majority of deer hunters in Ireland,and that there is strong objection for the silent majority views not being repersented,which we as a group of individuals repersent. Back this up via a petition perhaps?"If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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Grizzly 45 wrote: »1]Decide first on what are we wiling to negoiate on,compromise on and what are uncrossable line in the sand issues for us.We need a full consensus going forward before we appoach anyone in offical dom
2]The abolition or make it a once-off requirement to inform the dept of rifle&ammo details.
3] Non-agreement with mandatory courses post 10 years of holding an Irish liscense or UK,US or EU.IOW refusal of the non grandfathering clause.
4] Include bag returns to be done online.
5] If we are going to be paying fees,then the foreshore liscenses as a biggger body of shooters get included in the computer as well at the same price for 5 years..Fairs fair,and it is a bargining chip that needs to be considerd. Otherwise we are going to be carrying them as eventually they will be included in the machine as well.
6] Make it a claer point that certain organisations do NOT speak for the majority of deer hunters in Ireland,and that there is strong objection for the silent majority views not being repersented,which we as a group of individuals repersent. Back this up via a petition perhaps?
Grizzly with all due respects we're not in a position to decide what we are willing to negotiate on, etc.
We should be focused on making reasonable requests to the people who make the decisions and the people who have the power to influence those decisions on our behalf.
Personally I have no interest whatsoever in foreshore shooters, or what fees they will or want to pay. I don't even know who they are, what they do and I don't care either way.
I don't need a consensus of anyone to write to public representatives on my behalf either, they are there to represent us as individuals."Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."
Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.
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Rows Grower wrote: »Grizzly with all due respects we're not in a position to decide what we are willing to negotiate on, etc.
We are if it is a group effort,calling itself somthin Irish,aorganisation. A collective effort in this case will get more attention and be more coherent than, solo runners.We should be focused on making reasonable requests to the people who make the decisions and the people who have the power to influence those decisions on our behalf.
In case you didnt get the memo...The people supposedly having the power to repersent us at ministerial level are the ones trying to screw us over.
And what in your opinion are "reasonable requests" on the points already raised???Personally I have no interest whatsoever in foreshore shooters, or what fees they will or want to pay. I don't even know who they are, what they do and I don't care either way.
Fair enough...X thousand duck and geese shooters who hunt our esturies and lakes will thank you for making their lives easier by being able to do this online in the future too for free on a system that you are subsidseing with your 80 euros every 3 years. Becaues there is NO WAY IN HELL the WLU will be doing half our hunting liscenses by computer and the other half by pen and paper in the future.I don't need a consensus of anyone to write to public representatives on my behalf either, they are there to represent us as individuals.
Indeed you dont,and go right ahead.But it wil be one voice yelling in the dark. Multiple people with the same points look more organised and creditable..."If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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Grizzly 45 wrote: »
We are if it is a group effort,calling itself somthin Irish,aorganisation. A collective effort in this case will get more attention and be more coherent than, solo runners.
In case you didnt get the memo...The people supposedly having the power to repersent us at ministerial level are the ones trying to screw us over.
And what in your opinion are "reasonable requests" on the points already raised???
Fair enough...X thousand duck and geese shooters who hunt our esturies and lakes will thank you for making their lives easier by being able to do this online in the future too for free on a system that you are subsidseing with your 80 euros every 3 years. Becaues there is NO WAY IN HELL the WLU will be doing half our hunting liscenses by computer and the other half by pen and paper in the future.
Indeed you dont,and go right ahead.But it wil be one voice yelling in the dark. Multiple people with the same points look more organised and creditable...
You seem to me to have lost the plot here Grizzly, but it could be just my lack of education and experience so you carry on there with your crusade and best of luck."Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."
Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.
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Obviously a bit too hard to figure out that a collective effort is going to look a lot better in representation and seriousness than single rants to a minister by individuals?:rolleyes:
"If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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Grizzly 45 wrote: »Obviously a bit too hard to figure out that a collective effort is going to look a lot better in representation and seriousness than single rants to a minister by individuals?:rolleyes:
On the contrary, I was taught that very same lesson a long time ago by men a lot more experienced and willing to educate others than yourself.
There's really no need to try and reassert your superior knowledge and vast experience over the rest of us mere mortals, it proves nothing.
Much like the other lad who thinks his vulgar expressions of his willingness to spend money on bullets and diesel means he thinks he is somehow richer and more devoted to the sport than others here who go about their business in a more dignified manner I find your attitude to your fellow sportsmen appalling."Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."
Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.
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Lads,
Trying to get fully organised, form agreement on "policy" etc takes a lot of time. While it's time well spent, it's also going to draw both frustration and annoyance from many of us, along the way.
Please try not to let it get personal.... Our energy is far better spent working towards common goals, for the benefit of our sport.
We've a relatively new and inexperienced Minister on our hands, who looks weak and by extension, potentially dangerous. God only knows what he might sign off on, if he sees something requested by a lobby group with a Deer on its headed paper.
Let's try and agree a few basic actions and start doing something positive, while simultaneously discussing other longer term plans and ideas.
If we aren't at a stage where we can agree to issue a letter to the Minister representing our group, then let's start with agreeing a few basics and even writing individually, to help counteract whatever else is going on, that we may not even know about.Thanks,
G.
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Rows Grower wrote: »There's really no need to try and reassert your superior knowledge and vast experience over the rest of us mere mortals, it proves nothing.
How about trying to answer what I asked you ,in what you consider pertinent points on what you would like to see changed with out getting personal? Usually when people get personal,they dont have a valid response in the 1st place.Somthing those mentors of yours would surely have taught you?
Not my circus ,not my monkey.Much like the other lad who thinks his vulgar expressions of his willingness to spend money on bullets and diesel means he thinks he is somehow richer and more devoted to the sport than others here who go about their business in a more dignified manner
.I find your attitude to your fellow sportsmen appalling
How so??? I want to hear this one!! :P:P:P"If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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Ok lads, go have a coffee, cup of tea or a pint if ya need and cool down.
Let calmer heads return or just turn off the computer and attack the TOPIC (not each other) fresh in the morning.
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We've a relatively new and inexperienced Minister on our hands, who looks weak and by extension, potentially dangerous. God only knows what he might sign off on, if he sees something requested by a lobby group with a Deer on its headed paper.
First good question...Which minister is in charge of this rodeo?Is it the Green guy or the FF guy in charge of housing whose remit this has fallen under?No point in sending it to the "wrong" minister,which we might have been doing with the Greenie.
2nd point we need to check this orgsnisation getting too much into the ministerial ear.Wondering would an open letter to the minister with sigs be a start?
Absolutely,but I get the feeling they are too easily ignored and then we get the 3% rule happening again.Let's try and agree a few basic actions and start doing something positive, while simultaneously discussing other longer term plans and ideas.
No need to set up any organisations,with formal recognition and elected members etc.All it has to be is a declaration or open letter stating our wants,and that this organisation does not repersent us all and that we are in strong disagreement with it,on certain points ."If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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Grizzly 45 wrote: »Obviously a bit too hard to figure out that a collective effort is going to look a lot better in representation and seriousness than single rants to a minister by individuals?:rolleyes:
You never get a collective effort in Ireland anyway. The Irish love to be contrary for the sake of it. Seen it so much in the shooting community over the years. Lads for instance complaining about them feckin pistols being licenced, "Shouldn't be allowed, all ya need is a double barrel or a .22 bolt action". Then we had SCOVI proposing crap that could have been real trouble for us.
If you had a few thousand lads complaining about deer hunting licence fees, you'd get the well off, money no object brigade, saying its no issue.0 -
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Grizzly 45 wrote: »First good question...Which minister is in charge of this rodeo?Is it the Green guy or the FF guy in charge of housing whose remit this has fallen under?No point in sending it to the "wrong" minister,which we might have been doing with the Greenie.. .
The response that I was sent, to my complaint about the delay in this season's licences being issued, was sent in behalf of Malcolm Noonan, so I'm assuming that he's our man.
I think its the other lad that's gone and landed himself in the sh1t, with regards to permitting fishermen to shoot the seals, though.2nd point we need to check this orgsnisation getting too much into the ministerial ear.Wondering would an open letter to the minister with sigs be a start?
What do you think that letter should say?
* challenge their authority to represent hunters?
* question the experience and qualifications of the person / people running the group?
* ask the minister to publically call on all interested parties to make submissions, before any changes to the current arrangements, are considered, or approved?You never get a collective effort in Ireland anyway...
And that's why we have many of the problems that we have today.
So, who not try something different and let's all see if we can achieve something, by working togeather?
We won't always agree on everything, but how about everyone focusing on a few things that we can all agree on, to begin with?
It's long past time that we all recognised thay we are stronger, and carry significantly more influence, when we stand together... Unity for the common good!Thanks,
G.
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The response that I was sent, to my complaint about the delay in this season's licences being issued, was sent in behalf of Malcolm Noonan, so I'm assuming that he's our man.
I think its the other lad that's gone and landed himself in the sh1t, with regards to permitting fishermen to shoot the seals, though.
What do you think that letter should say?
* challenge their authority to represent hunters?
* question the experience and qualifications of the person / people running the group?
* ask the minister to publically call on all interested parties to make submissions, before any changes to the current arrangements, are considered, or approved?
And that's why we have many of the problems that we have today.
So, who not try something different and let's all see if we can achieve something, by working togeather?
We won't always agree on everything, but how about everyone focusing on a few things that we can all agree on, to begin with?
It's long past time that we all recognised thay we are stronger, and carry significantly more influence, when we stand together... Unity for the common good!
I think your three points should be the basis of the letter, maybe someone else will come up with another point or two, if not I’d be happy to drive on with what you have come up with.
Once again, fair play."Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."
Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.
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Okay, so let's all forget about any suggestion of a fee. ..
What can we agree on, and what are we prepared to actually try and act on, aside from squabbling here on the website?
Is everyone supportive of emailing the Minister objecting to a private enterprise running training courses?
Is everyone willing to email the Minister specifically objecting to a certain individual and / or a certain organisation claiming to represent Hunters?
Is everyone supportive of calling for the immediate introduction of an online application process, that would save our details and allow log on via username, similar to the motor tax system, for example ?
... a 3 year term?
... a simple confirmation that we continue to hold permission from various land owners and to provide the landowners contact details, if someone wants to verify our claims?
Anything else?
Hi Garrett, you’ve covered a lot. I’d agree in principle, however some paper pusher will complain we haven’t been submitting our returns. Perhaps three year term on licence, printed annually once deer shot return is submitted online??0 -
[QUOTE=garrettod;114749167
I think its the other lad that's gone and landed himself in the sh1t, with regards to permitting fishermen to shoot the seals, though.
What do you think that letter should say?
* challenge their authority to represent hunters?
* question the experience and qualifications of the person / people running the group?
* ask the minister to publically call on all interested parties to make submissions, before any changes to the current arrangements, are considered, or approved?
[/QUOTE]
1st point Yes as it is easily demonstrated by numbers in the collective organisations under that umbrella group Vs the numbers of liscense holders out there.Offical figures seem to be 5,500 to 6 ,000. So ballpark figure of 5,500 IOW there are more of us outside than in these orgs
2nd pt. Not really a good idea,as we dont know what their qualifications are,and throwing asperations doesn't look professional.[Time for that later]
3rd point Yes most definitely,with also a point that these views are taken seriously,and not just a box ticking exercise in the name of having to do a public submission.Also,that our nominated reps would like to meet with the minister to express our cncerns in person,as surely the other group has done in person.
We put this as an open letter or petition on change .org,or which offical site the Irish gov has,and collect signatures on this?
All we have to do is draft the letter properly."If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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Ministers don't care what letter say.
Just email them, and cc your local TD, saying that you'd like him to immediately issue licenses to those who had them before.
Tell them you wont vote for them again if they dont.0 -
Rows Grower wrote: »Much like the other lad who thinks his vulgar expressions of his willingness to spend money on bullets and diesel means he thinks he is somehow richer and more devoted to the sport than others here who go about their business in a more dignified manner I find your attitude to your fellow sportsmen appalling.
You're just trolling - I said that I wouldn't have an issue paying for a guaranteed service.
You've some how construed this to the nonsense you've typed above.0 -
Whole point of an "open letter" it means it is in the public domain highlighting a greivence.Ministers don't care what letter say.Just email them, and cc your local TD, saying that you'd like him to immediately issue licenses to those who had them before.
Think we have been there,seen it done it,bought the Tshirt and the gift shop on this one since Mid August.
Ever hear "A week is a long time in Irish politics"? There rest of it is" an election is a lifetime away".;)Tell them you wont vote for them again if they dont."If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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Too much infighting here for me.
Have a good season lads.0 -
You're just trolling - I said that I wouldn't have an issue paying for a guaranteed service.
You've some how construed this to the nonsense you've typed above.
To be fair you said a lot more than that and were quite liberal with your insults.
I genuinely hope you also have a good season."Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."
Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.
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Grizzly 45 wrote: »1st point Yes as it is easily demonstrated by numbers in the collective organisations under that umbrella group Vs the numbers of liscense holders out there.Offical figures seem to be 5,500 to 6 ,000. So ballpark figure of 5,500 IOW there are more of us outside than in these orgs
2nd pt. Not really a good idea,as we dont know what their qualifications are,and throwing asperations doesn't look professional.[Time for that later]
3rd point Yes most definitely,with also a point that these views are taken seriously,and not just a box ticking exercise in the name of having to do a public submission.Also,that our nominated reps would like to meet with the minister to express our cncerns in person,as surely the other group has done in person.
We put this as an open letter or petition on change .org,or which offical site the Irish gov has,and collect signatures on this?
All we have to do is draft the letter properly.
Grizzly, I can see the validity of your first two points but if we are going to draft something that we all agree on I personally don't agree with your 3rd point.
To be crystal clear here, I don't want a debate or argument."Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."
Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.
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