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What defines an 'Irishman' in context of upcoming centenaries

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  • #32
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    For example in 1798 was there widespread nationalism?

    1798 was not all about nationalism and there was a certain amount of the leadership that were looking for free trade and an end to British manipulation of the Irish economy.

    Wexford was considered to be one of the least likely places to rebel but it started and spread. Part of the reason for that was post the restoration of the monarchy and the Williamite Wars had meant that the land had been carved up again and people were trying to twist a buck, practice their religion etc.

    It wasn't a catholic rebellion by any stretch-except Fr Murphy was really pissed off that his church was burnt down.

    It was very much a protestant rebellion too.

    If you are talking the centenary of the Ulster Covenant well that is a huge issue as it defined an Ulster Scot as an ethnic identity in a way. This was new. We really did not have that before.

    In one way, nationalism in Ireland is defined by that event and was predated by it. It created a community.

    We still are not defining what went into it or what its identity is.


  • #33
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    You are correct in your wording "mostly", but alot of Unionists also recognise an Irishness in their making (as distinct from being British). So it is not Universal.
    Very few would. Sure we have the Irish shamrock on some of our flags etc but it depends what people really mean by Irish. I always see quotes from people about Irish people who died for Irish freedom. I don't know what they mean by that if they think people of Ulster Scots heritage are Irish because the vast majority of Ulster Scots have always fought against a United Ireland.


  • #34
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    I don't know what they mean by that if they think people of Ulster Scots heritage are Irish because the vast majority of Ulster Scots have always fought against a United Ireland.

    What is the Ulster Scots heritage ?


  • #35
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    CDfm wrote: »
    The generic Gaelic [sic] taught in schools is not what my ancestors spoke.

    The generic English taught in schools is not what your ancestors spoke, either.
    What's your point?

    So, what's you problem with calling Irish "Irish"? Given that as long ago as 1537 the English were referring to it as Irish, and that referring to it as "Gaelic" in the English language is a distinctly modern British nationalist usage, what political point are you trying to make by referring to it as "Gaelic"? Do you, when speaking English, refer to French as 'français' or, when speaking English, refer to German as 'Deutsch'? I doubt it.


  • #36
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    I feel as 'British as Finchley' despite having lived in the Republic for most of my life

    Jesus. This explains a lot.


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  • #37
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    What is your definition of 'Irish people'? You should consider that alot of Unionists consider themselves as 'Irish people' when commenting as quoted.

    An Irish person is somebody who believes in defending the sovereignty of this country, in particular against it being subsumed by the only state and nationalism which has threatened it: Britain and British nationalism.

    Anybody who does not defend Irishness against that threat has a concept of Irishness which is colonial and provincial in nature - Ireland, for these "Irish", is a mere region of England and its extended state of Britain. "Irishness", for them, extends to supporting Irish-born people playing an English game like rugby. For these "Irish" Ireland, and the Irish, must have a politically and culturally inferior position in Ireland to the essentially English politics and culture of Great Britain. In other words, these colonial "Irish" are the enemies of the survival of an Irishness that is not rooted in Britishness (i.e. Englishness).

    The truth, as unpalatable as it is.


    /end thread.


  • #38
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    Jesus. This explains a lot.

    Rebelheart. Jesus. This explains a lot. :rolleyes:


  • #39
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Rebelheart. Jesus. This explains a lot. :rolleyes:

    Obviously! Duh. I'm not pretending to be something I'm not. Nobody could accuse me of that (said with more pride than Dónall Ó Néill in 1317) You, in contrast, have never made your true politics as clear as you've done on this thread.

    >>>MOD SNIP- Infraction for personal insult to fellow poster- PM me if you have a problem or query with this- jonniebgood1. Comment in question removed<<<

    PS: Or in my naivety am I missing the obvious here: is your earlier criticism of the "liberalism" of Protestant churchmen related to some deeper fundamentalist Christian "judgement day" belief on your part?


  • #40
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    Obviously! Duh. I'm not pretending to be something I'm not. Nobody could accuse me of that (said with more pride than Dónall Ó Néill in 1317) You, in contrast, have never made your true politics as clear as you've done on this thread. I would never have put your politics/hatred of Irish Ireland in the same league as FrattonFred and the like. You live and learn, as they say.

    PS: Or in my naivety am I missing the obvious here: is your earlier criticism of the "liberalism" of Protestant churchmen related to some deeper fundamentalist Christian "judgement day" belief on your part?[/QUOTE]

    Without wishing to derail the thread further I think you misunderstand where I'm coming from and as for my name, it comes from one of my favourite movies (The Terminator) and I'm about as far removed from Christian (or any other) religious fundamentalism as it is possible to be.

    My politics are Unionist in belief and (Green Party in practice) and I have never displayed a hatred for the Irish or Ireland in any of my posts as far I know. There are are certain things I hate in Ireland and here are a few which you can make of what you like.

    Terrorists (both persuasions equally), the GAA, Soccer, the Orange Order, bent/useless politicians, politicians who have been given a makeover in the interests of peace - Ian Paisley, Martin McGuinness, Gerry Adams, Peter Robinson, David Trimble etc., drug dealers, rapists, murderers, bankers and I'm sure there's more. A lot of hate but I don't let it eat me up and I don't feel the need to call my self "Croppy Lie Down" or "Survivor of Scullabogue" on Boards. :D


  • #41
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Rebelheart wrote: »

    PS: Or in my naivety am I missing the obvious here: is your earlier criticism of the "liberalism" of Protestant churchmen related to some deeper fundamentalist Christian "judgement day" belief on your part?

    Well take this for instance
    Graham Norton: My Protestant upbringing in Cork left me friendless and lonely

    Read more: http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/independent-woman/celebrity-news-gossip/graham-norton-my-protestant-upbringing-in-cork-left-me-friendless-and-lonely-3060689.html#ixzz1q8erXEAe

    And my ancestors in Wexford spoke a dialect called Yola

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yola_language

    My point is that being Irish is not a specific generic thing no matter what people like to think.

    There are a whole lot of local histories that do not fit the model.


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  • #42
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    An Irish person is somebody who believes in defending the sovereignty of this country, in particular against it being subsumed by the only state and nationalism which has threatened it: Britain and British nationalism.

    Anybody who does not defend Irishness against that threat has a concept of Irishness which is colonial and provincial in nature - Ireland, for these "Irish", is a mere region of England and its extended state of Britain. "Irishness", for them, extends to supporting Irish-born people playing an English game like rugby. For these "Irish" Ireland, and the Irish, must have a politically and culturally inferior position in Ireland to the essentially English politics and culture of Great Britain. In other words, these colonial "Irish" are the enemies of the survival of an Irishness that is not rooted in Britishness (i.e. Englishness).

    The truth, as unpalatable as it is.


    /end thread.
    That rules me out then. A group of people do exist on the Island who are different people in political beliefs, religious beliefs, different ideologies and the way they see society.

    It is just a reality. We keep ourselves to ourselves.


  • #43
    thecommietommy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 564 ✭✭✭thecommietommy


    CDfm wrote: »
    Well take this for instance



    And my ancestors in Wexford spoke a dialect called Yola

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yola_language

    My point is that being Irish is not a specific generic thing no matter what people like to think.

    There are a whole lot of local histories that do not fit the model.
    Sounds like the DIY ' lanugage ' of Ulster Scots bulls**t to me.


  • #44
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    CDfm wrote: »
    What is the Ulster Scots heritage ?
    http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/

    Pretty good website on events and culture and so on.


  • #45
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/

    Pretty good website on events and culture and so on.

    Thanks . I will take a peak later.
    thecommietommy wrote: »
    Sounds like the DIY ' lanugage ' of Ulster Scots bulls**t to me.

    See thats where you are wrong

    Originally, Gaelic Ireland was a collection of "tuath" corresponding to the baronies and peopled by tribes/clans. This one was a counterbalance to the McMurroughs. So to assert that the Normans became more Irish than the Irish themselves -well here that would not have been the case.

    Also, you would miss the Kavanagh/Butler connection and what happened in the restoration and Williamite Wars and what became the powderkeg which became 1798.

    http://gail25.tripod.com/first.htm

    http://www.heritage.nf.ca/society/united_irish_uprising.html

    Have you ever met a Newfie with a Wexford accent ?

    The reason for posting it is that if you are basing your national identity on historical planks then it would be a good idea that they exist.

    The 1641 depositions is full of them ( people from that Wexford community).So if you are talking independence from 1798 and the war of independence you cannot really exclude this heritage because it was part and parcel of it.

    These guys and the presbyterians were republicans back then.

    What heritage do you think Wolfe Tone had ?

    Now others are saying that they have local or regional histories too that don't fit the model.

    Bannasidhe who posts in H & H also points to a whole host of other inconsistancies in the history that we learn about "Irish" history. .

    Wharcha goin to cherrypick for your Irish model if you kick out a heritage of a community thats over 800 years old.


  • #46
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    I simply do not see the point in this discussion at all except to argue. It's all opinion loosely supported by half facts, half truths, someone said, well what abouts...


  • #47
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    MarchDub wrote: »
    I simply do not see the point in this discussion at all except to argue. It's all opinion loosely supported by half facts, half truths, someone said, well what abouts...

    I am in two minds about it and I do suppose it depends on the attitude you enter into the thread with.

    I recently contributed to a US forum on a thread about mixed race in New Orleans post the American Civil War. The usual explanation is that these were descendants of slaveowners and while that may be true you also had descendants of Irish slaves via Barbados & Virginia and the 17th Century trade in Irish slaves.

    And, that's where the accurate history comes in . If history is about anything its about facts , discussing and interpreting them and maybe this thread will throw up a few.


  • #48
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    Now that we have voted to abolish birthright (which we did) , Irishness becomes a state of mind.

    We speak English, are embedded in Anglo-(American) culture and are in the Anglo economic sphere.

    Thus, the only defining mark of an Irishman is a commitment to political separation from Britain.

    If you are not committed to that you are not Irish.

    Simple as. :cool:

    It's the Irish "cricket test".

    Thus I know recent immigrants from Nigeria who are more legitimately Irish than poppy-wearers who've been here for generations.

    ps: It seems that only thanking folk who agree with you is a suspicious activity, so I'm avoiding chance of suspicion here :)


  • #49
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    CDfm wrote: »
    If history is about anything its about facts , discussing and interpreting them and maybe this thread will throw up a few.

    Its throwing up a few all right -;)

    The OP reads like an invitation to just opine, which is what we are getting.


  • #50
    Richard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,439 ✭✭✭Richard


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Where did you hear that? Very few Unionists/Loyalists consider themselves Irish. It is mostly aimed at the Nationalist community who come from a Roman Catholic background.

    That's not true, Keith. Many, if not most NI Protestants consider themselves Irish, even though it may not be their primary identity.

    Ian Paisley has always said he is Irish.


  • #51
    Richard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,439 ✭✭✭Richard


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    An Irish person is somebody who believes in defending the sovereignty of this country, in particular against it being subsumed by the only state and nationalism which has threatened it: Britain and British nationalism.

    Anybody who does not defend Irishness against that threat has a concept of Irishness which is colonial and provincial in nature - Ireland, for these "Irish", is a mere region of England and its extended state of Britain. "Irishness", for them, extends to supporting Irish-born people playing an English game like rugby. For these "Irish" Ireland, and the Irish, must have a politically and culturally inferior position in Ireland to the essentially English politics and culture of Great Britain. In other words, these colonial "Irish" are the enemies of the survival of an Irishness that is not rooted in Britishness (i.e. Englishness).

    The truth, as unpalatable as it is.

    /end thread.

    Except that it isn't the truth. Irishness means different things to different people, and being Irish does not necessarily make one an Irish nationalist.

    Your point about Irish rugby players considering Ireland to be inferior to Great Britain doesn't have any basis in fact.

    Dogma has created many problems in Ireland today and we'd be advised to stay away from it.


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  • #52
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    MarchDub wrote: »
    Its throwing up a few all right -;)

    The OP reads like an invitation to just opine, which is what we are getting.

    I have got this far without being accused of being a revisionist. I think I am having a great thread.

    The Blessings of Odin on ye.


  • #53
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    CDfm wrote: »
    I have got this far without being accused of being a revisionist. I think I am having a great thread.

    \

    There would have to be actual history on the thread for that and so far the balance is not on that side!


  • #54
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    Continuity Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    I quoted Connolly to demonstrate that there has always been difficulty in defining what an Irishman is, you can't put an exact definition on it, nor can you precisely define what an American person is, a French, etc etc, so it's not a unique difficulty.

    Exactly - and there are many sociological studies that show this.

    Note I didn't say 'historical' studies -


  • #55
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    MarchDub wrote: »
    There would have to be actual history on the thread for that and so far the balance is not on that side!

    Oh the meanness if it ;)


  • #56
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    CDfm wrote: »
    Oh the meanness if it ;)

    The thread you mean? I agree :pac:


  • #57
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Richard wrote: »
    That's not true, Keith. Many, if not most NI Protestants consider themselves Irish, even though it may not be their primary identity.

    Ian Paisley has always said he is Irish.
    That is false. The majority of Protestants in Northern Ireland consider themselves British. I would like to know how you base that opinion?


  • #58
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    MarchDub wrote: »
    I simply do not see the point in this discussion at all except to argue. It's all opinion loosely supported by half facts, half truths, someone said, well what abouts...

    The point of this thread is in the title, and if it is just an argument then it will be closed - The thread came out of discussion on the Nelsons pilar thread, I moved the first 6 or seven posts from there as they were taking the whole thread off topic. In consideration of closing this thread we need to review whether it fits in with a discussion of either history or heritage. In either case given the nature of the discussion people posting need to provide a source as the basis for their opinions. If that happens then great, if not the thread will end.

    Moderator.


  • #59
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    The point of this thread is in the title, and if it is just an argument then it will be closed - The thread came out of discussion on the Nelsons pilar thread, I moved the first 6 or seven posts from there as they were taking the whole thread off topic. In consideration of closing this thread we need to review whether it fits in with a discussion of either history or heritage. In either case given the nature of the discussion people posting need to provide a source as the basis for their opinions. If that happens then great, if not the thread will end.

    Moderator.
    Frankly, there has been very little of this - plenty of opinions, as per most previous posts, but no back up and certainly very little reference to History as a source for anything.

    We might as well - with the title of the OP in mind - parse the entire Proclamation. Who are the 'dead generations' which 'common good' - and so on.


  • #60
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Well surely the definition of Irish has an ethnic basis. We have some of the best preserved pre-historic monuments in the world so we go back a long way. The premise of defining someone as Irish must have some basis or reason for doing so. Is an Ulster-scot an Irishman for example- this is subjective and will vary from person to person, granted, but I would say of course they are. They were planted in Ireland in the first place, settled in Ulster and developed their means to suit their situation in Ireland. Their descendants in America are termed 'Scotch Irish Americans' so it should be fair to call them Irish to some extent. They left Ireland when nationalism was perhaps not an issue as survival dominated personal agendas, work in the linen industry caused some of this in the late 18th century ('The Scotch-Irish in America' By Henry Jones Ford gives a timeline of this- pg 164). That those who remained in Ireland rather than emigrate may prefer in this era not to be referenced 'Irish' then brings about a problem in accepting peoples wishes on one hand or simply classifying them based upon where their inherited culture and heritage has been developed from. By 1790 14% of Americas population were emigrants from Northern Ireland ('Chasing the Frontier: Scots-Irish in Early America' By Larry Hoefling, pg 18) and they must form a large part of Americas Irish lineage which is proudly declared. To link back with the thread title I would expect that many of these people will celebrate centenaries with enthusiastic gusto that Ireland will welcome.

    That is just one section of society that forms part of the question, obviously a part that gets much consideration given the nature of our history. Our modern history would mean that immigrants also form a part of the Irish community. It also brings about other questions on where we come from. I would be quite sure of my own lineage being shared on one side from the plantations (possibly Ulster) and the other being 'native' Irish (whatever that is- Viking, Gaul, Anglo- saxon or how far back?).

    In summary I think it should be possible to discuss this in a suitable manner on this forum as I have pointed out. Whether this happens or not depends on the participants so I will wait and see.


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  • #61
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    An Irish person is somebody who believes in defending the sovereignty of this country,
    I don't give more than the occasional (usually impatient) passing thought to the defence of Irish sovereignty. Does that mean I am not truly Irish?
    in particular against it being subsumed by the only state and nationalism which has threatened it: Britain and British nationalism.
    I absolutely refuse to define myself in terms of opposition to Britain or Britishness (or England and Englishness). That's irrelevant to my sense of being Irish.
    Anybody who does not defend Irishness against that threat has a concept of Irishness which is colonial and provincial in nature - Ireland, for these "Irish", is a mere region of England and its extended state of Britain.
    That's offensive bollocks.
    "Irishness", for them, extends to supporting Irish-born people playing an English game like rugby. For these "Irish" Ireland, and the Irish, must have a politically and culturally inferior position in Ireland to the essentially English politics and culture of Great Britain. In other words, these colonial "Irish" are the enemies of the survival of an Irishness that is not rooted in Britishness (i.e. Englishness).
    The concept of Irishness you seem to advocate is largely an invention of the Gaelic League.


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