Alarm options?

stuartkee · 28-12-2017 8:34pm

I agree the HA part of the set up.looks great but for it to be a serious panel it has to be able to analyse shock sensors and let them be set via the control panel shocks are the only thing that pick up smashed entry or pre entry if someone is trying to break in just would be a contender if it did all the function of a very basic intruder alarm panel in Ireland

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Hi Stuart,

There are local installers as far as I am aware, I think one was based in Limerick from what I remember.

Here is a link to some compliance documents, I am not up to date with what these are, but the system is well used in the UK, and has a good number of commercial installers.

http://www.cytech.biz/compliance_with_en5013_pd6662_and_bs8243.html?category_id=126

I have it since I built my house in 2000/2001, and it has been very reliable. Mine is a self install, so from that perspective is not compliant, but I am fairly sure that it fully meets any standards required here if it is professionally installed.

The panel itself has been out nearly 30 years or more also, and technical support, from my experience is excellent, as and end user and an installer (of my own system) Taking a look at the comfort forum will show this for example.

Shock sensors, I dont have any, but perhaps you could explain, as to me, a shock sensor reports back via a simple relay no ? Its a no/nc circuit ?

I've asked the question on the forum anyway as you poked my curiosity :-)

Again, the reason we are discussing this panel, is its functionality with respect to smart homes, interfacing to other standards etc. I think the panel comes into its own when you look at the logic and automation features of it. If the system was professionally installed, I would think the installer would lock down the ability of the owner to change or customise the automation features, but considering the forum qe are in, I think its an ideal device for many here

FrankGrimes · 28-12-2017 10:11pm

stuartkee wrote: »

I agree the HA part of the set up.looks great but for it to be a serious panel it has to be able to analyse shock sensors and let them be set via the control panel shocks are the only thing that pick up smashed entry or pre entry if someone is trying to break in just would be a contender if it did all the function of a very basic intruder alarm panel in Ireland

Genuinely interested to hear if you have actually read the answer to this topic on the Cytech thread linked above?

"If the shock sensor has a processor, it should have a dry contact like a PIR so normal settings for zone like door/window can be used

if it is a raw vibration sensor which has very fast transitions then you need a very fast sensitivity setting, see the Vibrartion zone type"

I'm clearly a newbie to this space but from what I've read the past few days, my understanding was a sensor with inbuilt processor applies intelligence that determines what state it communicates back to the control panel, whereas a standard sensor just sends the raw data back to the control panel and the logic defined there determines if it is regarded as above or below the parameters set for triggering an alarm.

All the configuration options I have seen in the Comfort documentation has indicated it is highly configurable, and I'd be surprised if it doesn't provide the functionality you have alluded to. I'm interested to clarify if there is a gap in functionality, or if this is actually covered (as the above quote seems to imply it is).

stuartkee · 29-12-2017 11:29am

No it's not the sensors that does the analysing it's the alarm control panel where you set it up so a NC circuit isn't enough . It sounds like a small issue but it's lack of it means I cannot consider it as an option as yet .
We seem to forget that believe it or not what we do in Ireland is the way to go like has been pointed out before on other threads about this Irish people don't live with bars or shutters on the homes unlike the Spanish or Italian or French where it's common place .
So a permitter system is best that's why the shock sensor was invented by an Irish guy for the Irish market 40 years ago and is still used by 95% of the market. That's of course not including Phonewatches poor effort of an alarm system that's plugged into the socket and cannot ring a bell box on the outside.
It's all heading that way clearly I'm looking forward to more integration in the future.

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Genuinely interested to hear if you have actually read the answer to this topic on the Cytech thread linked above?

"If the shock sensor has a processor, it should have a dry contact like a PIR so normal settings for zone like door/window can be used

if it is a raw vibration sensor which has very fast transitions then you need a very fast sensitivity setting, see the Vibrartion zone type"

I'm clearly a newbie to this space but from what I've read the past few days, my understanding was a sensor with inbuilt processor applies intelligence that determines what state it communicates back to the control panel, whereas a standard sensor just sends the raw data back to the control panel and the logic defined there determines if it is regarded as above or below the parameters set for triggering an alarm.

All the configuration options I have seen in the Comfort documentation has indicated it is highly configurable, and I'd be surprised if it doesn't provide the functionality you have alluded to. I'm interested to clarify if there is a gap in functionality, or if this is actually covered (as the above quote seems to imply it is).

Stoner · 29-12-2017 11:31am

bk wrote:

But the SmartThings integration seems exactly the type of integration I'd want from an alarm system.

Yes it looks the business

wexfordman2 · 29-12-2017 12:39pm

stuartkee wrote: »

No it's not the sensors that does the analysing it's the alarm control panel where you set it up so a NC circuit isn't enough . It sounds like a small issue but it's lack of it means I cannot consider it as an option as yet .
We seem to forget that believe it or not what we do in Ireland is the way to go like has been pointed out before on other threads about this Irish people don't live with bars or shutters on the homes unlike the Spanish or Italian or French where it's common place .
So a permitter system is best that's why the shock sensor was invented by an Irish guy for the Irish market 40 years ago and is still used by 95% of the market. That's of course not including Phonewatches poor effort of an alarm system that's plugged into the socket and cannot ring a bell box on the outside.
It's all heading that way clearly I'm looking forward to more integration in the future.

Hi stuart,

I'm curious, what sort if input is required ?

Do alarm panels normally come with no/nc circuits and then separate inputs for shock sensors ?

29-12-2017 12:54pm

stuartkee please correct me if I am wrong but this is what I think he is saying:

Consider a zone on a HKC alarm with only inertia shock sensors installed. For simplicity let's ignore tampers and end of line resistors. When the alarm is armed and a zone is heathy the inertia shock sensor provides a normally closed connection. When someone taps a window the shock sensor vibrates opening and closing the circuit within rapidly. The alarm panel can measure the magnitude of the impact on the window by analysing the makes and breaks of this circuit. Furthermore the panel can be programmed so that it ignore impacts or vibrations below a certain threshold to avoid false / nuisance alarms.

Based on the reply provided by Cytech I believe that stuartkee's concern is that this alarm will activate once there is an open circuit without analysing it and there is no possibility to compensate for a windy day etc.

wexfordman2 · 29-12-2017 1:07pm

2011 wrote: »

stuartkee please correct me if I am wrong but this is what I think he is saying:

Consider a zone on a HKC alarm with only inertia shock sensors installed. For simplicity let's ignore tampers and end of line resistors. When the alarm is armed and a zone is heathy the inertia shock sensor provides a normally closed connection. When someone taps a window the shock sensor vibrates opening and closing the circuit within rapidly. The alarm panel can measure the magnitude of the impact on the window by analysing the makes and breaks of this circuit. Furthermore the panel can be programmed so that it ignore impacts or vibrations below a certain threshold to avoid false / nuisance alarms.

Based on the reply provided by Cytech I believe that stuartkee's concern is that this alarm will activate once there is an open circuit without analysing it and there is no possibility to compensate for a windy day etc.

Yeah, but I am fairly sure cytech stated that it could analyse the input and it can be adjusted, tuned etc ?

stuartkee · 29-12-2017 1:22pm

Yes like 2011 said it's just about the zone having analizer inbuilt into each zone for shocks to be set.

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Yeah, but I am fairly sure cytech stated that it could analyse the input and it can be adjusted, tuned etc ?

wexfordman2 · 29-12-2017 1:25pm

stuartkee wrote: »

Yes like 2011 said it's just about the zone having analizer inbuilt into each zone for shocks to be set.

So, to analyse the frequency of shocks and triggers ? I am sure it does this

FrankGrimes · 29-12-2017 1:30pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

So, to analyse the frequency of shocks and triggers ? I am sure it does this

I did a quick search for the Vibration zone type and saw an example in the manual that stated it could be set for a range of sensitivity, e.g. 20ms. So it seems to do exactly what Stuart has been concerned about. Indeed, given it clearly takes the input, it’d be more susprising if such a powerful control panel did not provide this fairly basic functionality, so can we move on from calling it a gimmick now?

29-12-2017 1:54pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Yeah, but I am fairly sure cytech stated that it could analyse the input and it can be adjusted, tuned etc ?

Based on this reply from Cytech I now suspect that stuartkee may be correct. Until I saw this I had a different view.

Can you post on the Cytech forum and ask for clarification? I would be interested to know for sure.
Many thanks

FrankGrimes wrote: »

it’d be more susprising if such a powerful control panel did not provide this fairly basic functionality, so can we move on from calling it a gimmick now?

So would I, but from what I have seen so far the information is inconclusive. To clarify, alarm panels such as HCK can be programmed for gross attack (1 to 9) and pulse count (1 to 9) settings. A gross attack is activated by a single high impact, whereas a pulse count activates with small impacts above a certain frequency.

Let's suppose stuartkee is correct (he may well be), this issue can be resolved by installing:
1) Something like an Aritech Quickbridge for wireless inertia shock sensors.
2) An analyser board for wired inertia sensors.

Both solutions will provide configurable gross attach and pulse count solutions to this panel, so either way not a big deal.

bk · 29-12-2017 3:16pm

Interesting info about shock sensors here:

http://www.diy-alarms.co.uk/pscatalog/en/blog/post/how-useful-are-shock-sensors-in-alarm-systems

arly (circa 1980s) devices used a purely physical method of detecting the vibrations - typically a cup and ball arrangement where the ball would move slightly when the unit received the shock wave. These devices were notorious for being unreliable and difficult to set-up. These early models also needed an analyser to convert the transient signal produced into a signal that could be detected by a hard-wired control panel. The devices were connected to the panel using 4 core cable - 2 for alarm, 2 for tamper. There were no wireless devices at the time.

Modern devices are fully electronic and are tuned to detect the typical frequencies emitted during a forced entry. They can be internally calibrated to the required sensitivity. Hard-wired devices are connected to the control panel using 6 core cable (Double Pole Wiring) or 4 core cable (FSL wiring).

So it would seem that the type of sensor stuartkee is talking about is the more old fashioned way of doing them, but modern shock sensors have their own processors built in, making analysers on the panel unnecessary.

Of course I'm not expert in this, so take the above with a pinch of salt.

wexfordman2 · 29-12-2017 3:24pm

Ok, I can ask on the forum, but can someone give me a clear description of what I need to ask ?

FrankGrimes · 29-12-2017 4:03pm

That's interesting stuff 2011 and bk, thanks both. Discussed with my brother-in-law who as installed alarms for years and he said yes you need to ensure you can configure both the Gross and the Pulse settings, or have a processor in the shock sensor itself (less common in Ireland due to prevalence of HKC which have the logic in the panel, and also more manual to test and configure).

So it seems the question for Cytech is can you define both Gross and Pulse parameters for shock sensors to monitor for both types of attack?

In the event the answer is no, would it be something like this which provides the workaround 2011 alluded to? That's just one example from a quick google, can imagine there are various options, don't look pricey or difficult to install, so hopefully worst case is Cytech don't cover this, but it can be added on relatively easily (one of those small boards per zone)?

wexfordman2 · 30-12-2017 5:04am

Here is the response from the co.fort forum

Shock sensors or vibration sensors detect vibration

Those with a processor will analyse the vibration amplitude and duration and determine if it is a real "shock"
Those without processors give contacts but they will switch on and off very rapidly, and are prone to false alarms, eg a slight tap may cause it to trigger
For comfort to process these select the Vribraton zone type which has sensitivity = 20 ms so it can detect the transitions, but use a Zone Response Vibration Analyser in Default Responses. This makes an alarm if there are 3 activations within 30 seconss

wexfordman2 · 31-12-2017 12:33pm

Frank,

Looks like cytech came back with a detailed reply to your post, see below copied and pasted :-

OK, it seems that HKC does claim "analyser" capability in every zone

However given that the panel inputs accept Open/Close contacts, the analysis capability is limited to measuring the duration and count of pulses, and not the actual strength or amplitude of the vibration.

In that case both Gross and Pulse count settings can be achieved with Comfort, although not under those names.

"Gross" level can be handled by the Zone Type sensitivity setting, from 20 ms to 800 ms (7 levels), is the duration of the activation. Lower values are for higher sensitivity and higher values for lower sensitivity.

Pulse count can be handled by the Vibration Analyser Response eg 3 counts in 30 seconds (both parameters can be changed) in the response. Hence Comfort gives fine tuning of the pulse count and timing compared to those which have fixed levels of pulse count like HKC.

These settings are useful when used with low cost vibration/shock sensors which have a ball and cup design and do not have inbuilt analysers

There are also many other shock sensors with analysers eg https://firesecurityproducts.com/product/intrusion/GS620BN/61841

From that link, it describes exactly how Comfort handles it except Comfort has another adjustable variable of 30 seconds for the pulse counts

"The analysing capability has two separate detection criteria: gross attack and pulse count. The gross attack threshold is designed to react to a single blow, while pulse count alarms when a pre-selected number of smaller shocks, occuring within a 30 second timing interval is reached. Both detection levels can be adjusted so that the installlation can be fine tuned to the environment and fully tested using the walk test facility. This digital signal processing is designed to eliminate false alarms and assure reliable detection of all types of attacks."

Comfort can be used with either type of sensor.

FrankGrimes · 31-12-2017 1:49pm

Thanks for the reminder, impressive level of response from Cytech, that bodes well.

As to the substance of the response, will be interested to hear others' perspectives, but to a layman like me it reads that the Zone Type sensitivity and Vibration Analyser Response settings provide sufficient configuration to ensure shock sensors can be used as part of an effective perimeter security system, very positive news.

31-12-2017 2:19pm

FrankGrimes wrote: »

As to the substance of the response, will be interested to hear others' perspectives, but to a layman like me it reads that the Zone Type sensitivity and Vibration Analyser Response settings provide sufficient configuration to ensure shock sensors can be used as part of an effective perimeter security system, very positive news.

Let’s suppose for argument’s sake that the Cytech panel does not have analysed zones to an acceptable standard, this isn’t really an issue as 3rd party zone analyzers can easily be added.

Most installers in Ireland use HKC. They know these systems inside out and they have proved to be exceptionally reliable. For these reasons there is an understandable reluctance to change and therefore a motivation for some to find fault with other systems.

Remember, if an alarm company installers a number of panels that turn out be be unreliable it can be very costly. They also have to put considerable effort into learning a completely new system. It is much more convenient and less risky to find fault with another system.

KNXTECH · 02-01-2018 12:25pm

<SNIP>

Please note that using a Boards account for commercial purposes is not allowed unless registered with HQ. Please contact hello@boards.ie for further details. Do not advertise your company again until this is sorted.

dudara

FrankGrimes · 03-01-2018 1:13pm

2011 wrote: »

Let’s suppose for argument’s sake that the Cytech panel does not have analysed zones to an acceptable standard, this isn’t really an issue as 3rd party zone analyzers can easily be added.

I think the comprehensive nature of the Cytech response means we do no longer need to suppose: Comfort allows detection of gross and pulse attacks and provides configuration for both parameters. And even if it didn't, 3rd party boards could be used, but for now my Plan A will be to use the inbuilt Comfort functionality.

Quite impressed with the comprehensive and swift responses from Cytech, it bodes well that their customer service is good, which along with the powerful capabilities of their product is a strong combination.

wexfordman2 · 03-01-2018 1:53pm

KNXTECH wrote: »

<SNIP>

Please note that using a Boards account for commercial purposes is not allowed unless registered with HQ. Please contact hello@boards.ie for further details. Do not advertise your company again until this is sorted.

dudara

Hi,

Just to clarify, I have no relationship with comfort or cytech apart from being a happy user for nearly 20 years, just want to make sure that is clear.

To be fair to cytech, as I had also been posting queries from this thread into the comfort support forum and linked this thread, I think they simply came in due to that.

wexfordman2 · 07-01-2018 11:24am

Might be of interest, complete breakdown of comfort spec here on the comfort forum

http://www.comfortforums.com/forum16/4833.html

07-01-2018 2:46pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Might be of interest, complete breakdown of comfort spec here on the comfort forum

http://www.comfortforums.com/forum16/4833.html

The forum is very informative, thanks.
It will be interesting to see how popular this alarm becomes in Ireland.
Cytech have certainly raised bar!

TheChizler · 08-10-2019 12:21pm

Bumping a slightly old thread, but I'm wondering has anyone recently installed the Cytech Comfort system and how are they finding it? It seems a bit dated to look at so how does it stand up in modern times? Is it worth the extra price you pay over the likes of Yale or HTC?

I've just moved into an old house with no alarm at all, 3 bed 860 sq ft, 5/6 windows needing alarms, two doors, and a separate garage. I want to self install an alarm ASAP and will be doing a lot of renovation in the next couple of years so wired wouldn't be too awkward.

My requirements are:
Standalone, as in doesn't require an app or internet to function
At the same time good IoT funcionality, even if this means a bit of work/programming on my part.
Google Assistant integration (even if this needs a bit of effort).

I hope to install a standalone home automation system in the future, something like Velbus (the likes of Hue is too easy

) so something that talks to that would be preferable.

I like the Yale Smart Sync system and door lock integration and would have bought by now if it had full Google Assistant integration, I know people have got basic functionality working but that could all go in a future update. I'd prefer to not be completely tied into one ecosystem as well.

The Comfort seems like the most flexible, however it is on the pricey side. Also I can't make head nor tail of the local distributor's website so ordering might be difficult! Coouldn't find any info on sensors, does it use generic ones? Is it worth the extra cash and trouble of configuring? I enjoy that kind of thing but realistically have a lot of other work to do on the house so it can't be a major time sink.

wexfordman2 · 08-10-2019 4:53pm

TheChizler wrote: »

Bumping a slightly old thread, but I'm wondering has anyone recently installed the Cytech Comfort system and how are they finding it? It seems a bit dated to look at so how does it stand up in modern times? Is it worth the extra price you pay over the likes of Yale or HTC?

I've just moved into an old house with no alarm at all, 3 bed 860 sq ft, 5/6 windows needing alarms, two doors, and a separate garage. I want to self install an alarm ASAP and will be doing a lot of renovation in the next couple of years so wired wouldn't be too awkward.

My requirements are:
Standalone, as in doesn't require an app or internet to function
At the same time good IoT funcionality, even if this means a bit of work/programming on my part.
Google Assistant integration (even if this needs a bit of effort).

I hope to install a standalone home automation system in the future, something like Velbus (the likes of Hue is too easy ) so something that talks to that would be preferable.

I like the Yale Smart Sync system and door lock integration and would have bought by now if it had full Google Assistant integration, I know people have got basic functionality working but that could all go in a future update. I'd prefer to not be completely tied into one ecosystem as well.

The Comfort seems like the most flexible, however it is on the pricey side. Also I can't make head nor tail of the local distributor's website so ordering might be difficult! Coouldn't find any info on sensors, does it use generic ones? Is it worth the extra cash and trouble of configuring? I enjoy that kind of thing but realistically have a lot of other work to do on the house so it can't be a major time sink.

Hey chizler,

I have comfort, integrated with google.assistant, using a built in (on board) rpi, and also velbus, hue and nest. Not a recent install,.comfort is nearly 20 years in (with an upgrade about 10 years ago replaced the entire panel), and velbus has been in around ten years now also,.working with comfort from day 1 (one of the main reasons I chose velbus). Rpi and google assistant integration added about 18 months ago.

The system, both alarm and velbus work together, but also fully functional if either system should fail, and not dependent on internet connectivity either (except for google assistant integration). The on board RPI, can run bode red, home assistant or openhab etc.

TheChizler · 08-10-2019 9:40pm

Sounds ideal, you've just opened yourself to being pestered when I can't get something working! Did you go wired or wireless? Did you get it from the Irish distributer? Do you feel it's holding up well after 10 years?

Would you have an idea how much it would cost to get a basic 5 window 2 door panel controller and maybe a PIR setup? It's the initial outlay I'm concerned about, don't mind upgrading over the years as a hobby.

wexfordman2 · 08-10-2019 11:00pm

TheChizler wrote: »

Sounds ideal, you've just opened yourself to being pestered when I can't get something working! Did you go wired or wireless? Did you get it from the Irish distributer? Do you feel it's holding up well after 10 years?

Would you have an idea how much it would cost to get a basic 5 window 2 door panel controller and maybe a PIR setup? It's the initial outlay I'm concerned about, don't mind upgrading over the years as a hobby.

I would buy from the uk site, I never bought from the irish site. Join the comfort forum also, loads of info there.

Wired, for everything, in fact all my sensors are standard wired.

It's a while since I bought anything but basic components you need would be

Main board (this has 8 inputs by default, and can be expanded later if you want).
Ucmpi (gives you ethernet programming access, and the rpi on board for node red, openhab etc).
Ucm velbus if you plan to deploy velbus (note your mains wiring and lightsiwtxh wiring will need to cater for this).
Keyoads (1 or 2)

Battery, pirs, door sensors etc, you can get locally, I would recommend the uk supplier fornthe comfort bits.

It is holding up very well imho,.as an alarm system incredibly stable and functional, as a smart home.controller, incredibly.stable.and reliable (mine has been controlling my lighting and heating (the heating is now nest though) solidly for 10 years).

Its.constantly getting firmware upgrades and new features (the rpi interface being the latest), and works very well with velbus and lots of other ha systems

TheChizler · 10-10-2019 3:10pm

Thanks, I'll price the basic thing up and see what I want to do from there. Actually it's probably from your posts I've come to hear about Comfort and Velbus in the first place.

Any recommendations on where to draw the line between Comfort and Velbus? Comfort seems to have quite a lot of HA capabilities itself.

wexfordman2 · 10-10-2019 11:10pm

TheChizler wrote: »

Thanks, I'll price the basic thing up and see what I want to do from there. Actually it's probably from your posts I've come to hear about Comfort and Velbus in the first place.

Any recommendations on where to draw the line between Comfort and Velbus? Comfort seems to have quite a lot of HA capabilities itself.

Comfort is extremely stable, both as an alarm system and as a home automation controller. I have pretty.much all of my automation logic running in comfort for a number of reasons

Stability
Integration (security sensors.such as pir and door sensors can be used for ha logic as well)
Simple logoc, if then else programming
Macro.functions etc van be triggered based on alarm status etc.

It is frankly.so.stable.that while there are options now to move.that logic elsewhere, it makes no sense to do so.

The ucm pi within comfort I use primarily for.getting google home integration to the panel, giving me voice control.over my entire.lighting,.heating and security system

I know the ucmpi can expand that even further,. I could integrate my solar Pv.system, hue lights etc, and I have played with it, but not had the time.to really dig into it.

TheChizler · 11-10-2019 10:17am

Ah I see, use Comfort for the smarts and Velbus for the ease of adding inputs and outputs to the system.

I'd like to add anything I can in the house over time, more for the challenge and hobby rather than any sort of practical reason. Great to know solar and hue could be added if I really wanted.

Thanks for all the tips!

Alarm options?

Comments