ASTI threaten strike action

Bobtheman · 04-02-2020 8:31pm #1

The asti has threatened strike action over unequal pay.
We are to be balloted soon.
I'm at present voting no as I'm sick of token strikes or the grand old Duke of York strategy.
I have seen younger staff climb over the bodies of older members to get promotion.
My generation have huge mortgage debt. NQTs have high rents but all drive cars and have a lifestyle I didn't have in my 20s and 30s.
The housing crisis will sort itself in 5 years.
A lot of them ran to the TUI last dispute or voted against strike action
Bottom line I don't trust my spine less colleagues.

mtoutlemonde · 04-02-2020 8:40pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

The asti has threatened strike action over unequal pay.
We are to be balloted soon.
I'm at present voting no as I'm sick of token strikes or the grand old Duke of York strategy.
I have seen younger staff climb over the bodies of older members to get promotion.
My generation have huge mortgage debt. NQTs have high rents but all drive cars and have a lifestyle I didn't have in my 20s and 30s.
The housing crisis will sort itself in 5 years.
A lot of them ran to the TUI last dispute or voted against strike action
Bottom line I don't trust my spine less colleagues.

+1 voting no. Was at branch meeting recently and that was the general feeling in the room. We lost enough last time while the NQTs hopped over to TUI or are still non union members - I hope nothing happens to them ie parent complaints, non renewal of contracts etc.

byhookorbycrook · 04-02-2020 9:00pm

I think it’s time for all 3 unions to get together and do a strike of 2-3 days . We might be listened to then.

Random sample · 04-02-2020 9:03pm

Two different payscales for people doing the same work in the same place is wrong. It will always be wrong. I will be voting yes on that basis.

It’s not about what individual younger teachers do or don’t do. It’s simply about righting a wrong.

km79 · 04-02-2020 9:10pm

Random sample wrote: »

Two different payscales for people doing the same work in the same place is wrong. It will always be wrong. I will be voting yes on that basis.

It’s not about what individual younger teachers do or don’t do. It’s simply about righting a wrong.

I too will be voting yes
However I also echo a lot of the sentiments above
And
A lot of the people who should 100% be voting yes will be unable/unwilling to do so as they left for TUI /no union
For that reason I think it will be very tight with a very low turnout

Bobtheman · 04-02-2020 9:35pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I think it’s time for all 3 unions to get together and do a strike of 2-3 days . We might be listened to then.

Primary school teachers - no way. They have no balls in the philosophical sense

Bobtheman · 04-02-2020 9:37pm

Not doing a token strike again.If the TuI and Asti agreed to 3 day perhaps but I see no sign of that. And even that can be classified as somewhat token.
Lower paid Tesco workers did 3 weeks for the love of Jesus
Token TUI strike today. Big deal . They can feel all smug about it.
Meanwhile two tier payscales continue...
Im voting No
Collegiality is dead as it is. The new promotion system and the selfishness of members old a s young took care of that

Benicetomonty · 04-02-2020 10:11pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

Not doing a token strike. If the TuI and Asti agreed to 3 day perhaps but I see no sign of that.
Token TUI strike today.

ASTI have made it clear that no action will be taken without the support of at least one other teacher union so thats something, I guess.

Hard to know where a lot of NQT heads are at tbh. Im aware that the vast majority of deserters who jumped ship to the TUI in 2016 and 2017 were established, pre 2011 teachers, and I know that a lot the nqts that left did so because they were on the verge of 2 year CIDs and were threatened (sorry, no other word) to do so on that basis by management. So I do sympathise with them in that regard, and obviously the pay and pension cuts were and remain appalling.

However, based on some comments Ive been reading these last few days on Voice for Teachers, it would seem that a lot of young teachers are holding their unions exclusively responsible for what happened to them back in 2010/2011 in a case of really embittered misdirection. Dont get me wrong, teaching unions probably didnt do enough to fight the unequal pay scales; bottom line is we accepted the CP Agreement and everything that went with it. Were we up against a hopeless govt that had to attack the PS with everything they had? Yep. Were we also fighting Europe itself, ie the Troika and the IMF? Yep. Did the ICTU roll over at the earliest possible chance, thus leaving the ASTI and a few other unions totally isolated? You bet. Did we have to cope with the resentment of thousands of private sector workers who were obviously suffering at the time? Sure did. Were we threatened with compulsory redundancies if we didnt play ball? We certainly were. And is a union's loyalty to its members or potential future members? Of course, it has to be the former. Were we told many of the measures were only temporary? Yes. But we accepted Croke Park. And the from what Ive read, that's all a lot of NQTs are seeing.

Posters say they dont see the point of going to branch meetings or even joining a union, and that is, imo, a dangerous situation. Taking action for pay equality would be a step towards showing disillusioned young teachers that unions are doing their bit to right a wrong that should never have happened, regardless of everything that led to it. If it isnt enough for them, so be it. Those that come after them will hopefully see the effort in a less prejudiced way.

acequion · 04-02-2020 10:28pm

Cannot for the life of me understand how anyone could even dream of voting no to a strike to end the injustice of pay apartheid no matter how token. Shame on those posters and those members with their petty grievances and petty grudges.:mad:

A one day strike isn't much and of course a week or three week strike by all three unions would be a hell of a lot better, but as pigs will fly before the latter happens, I'll take the former.

Any activity, even a token one, is keeping the pay dispute alive, it's putting it out there, it's fanning the coals that might eventually reignite into something a lot bigger. Do nothing and it goes away, the fire goes out. End of story!!

I'm no great fan of TUI but fair play to them for today and thanks for today! I don't think any one feels smug when they're down a day's pay and that's the result of a day's strike. Only a small bit of pain but pain nonetheless and worth it to keep the pay dispute alive.

So come on ASTI, forget all your petty squabbles which only feeds Govt agendas and vote yes to keep up the fight to end this blatant injustice that is unequal pay!

deisedevil · 04-02-2020 10:37pm

Random sample wrote: »

Two different payscales for people doing the same work in the same place is wrong. It will always be wrong. I will be voting yes on that basis.

It’s not about what individual younger teachers do or don’t do. It’s simply about righting a wrong.

Why is it just wrong? What specifically makes it wrong? Do you know why it was done in the first place?

It's a shame that teachers couldn't have a system where performance was linked to pay. For example the harder I work and the more productive I am the better an increase I can push for every year during my performance review. No guaranteed increase based on service.

I have yet to meet anyone who isn't a teacher who agrees that we should bring the lower payscale into line with the old payscale. It was changed with good reason and there's precious little appetite out there for a return to the old days where we were overpaying our public sector workers. Those on the lower payscale went into the profession with their eyes open. They knew the terms. We can all see them. They knew that there were teachers on a higher payscale and the reason why this is so. If I came out of college and suddenly realised how much I was going to earn and wasn't happy with my payscale, I'd have to suck it up or go back to college and change profession. Why do the teachers get to hold the country to ransom?

Benicetomonty · 04-02-2020 11:01pm

deisedevil wrote: »

Why is it just wrong? What specifically makes it wrong? Do you know why it was done in the first place?

It's a shame that teachers couldn't have a system where performance was linked to pay. For example the harder I work and the more productive I am the better an increase I can push for every year during my performance review. No guaranteed increase based on service.

I have yet to meet anyone who isn't a teacher who agrees that we should bring the lower payscale into line with the old payscale. It was changed with good reason and there's precious little appetite out there for a return to the old days where we were overpaying our public sector workers. Those on the lower payscale went into the profession with their eyes open. They knew the terms. We can all see them. They knew that there were teachers on a higher payscale and the reason why this is so. If I came out of college and suddenly realised how much I was going to earn and wasn't happy with my payscale, I'd have to suck it up or go back to college and change profession. Why do the teachers get to hold the country to ransom?

It is wrong on many levels. The 2 most important are
1) It is unfair. How do you justify a teacher who qualified in 2010 being on a different payscale than one who qualified the year after? You cant. Because it's wrong
2) It is contributing to a shortage of teachers and, to be brutally honest, it is lowering the standard of applicant. Both will have serious implications for the quality of our education system going forward.

Regarding your 2nd point, youre right: there is no tangible with which a teacher's 'performance' can be linked to his or her pay. Youre one of the very few non-teachers who have wound up in this forum who has the brains to see this. I commend you. Unfortunately it renders the rest of your point moot.

Youre aware Im sure that an entire cohort of student teachers were in the middle of their course when these changes were introduced. That means they categorically did not go into the job with their 'eyes wide open'. Regarding everybody who came after, they and we were told it was only a temporary measure that would be reversed after the recession. Like the pension levy. Like unpaid supervision. Like the croke park hours. They and we were lied to.

If teaching was all about money, we wouldnt have any. You really think front line public servants like nurses teachers etc were/are obscenely overpaid? The good ones, which is the vast majority, are worth every penny. And lets not forget that whatever money they make goes right back into the economy. They dont have Caymen Island investment funds or a rake of foreign properties like those in possession of actual wealth. Maybe those individuals would be a more suitable target for your ire?

RealJohn · 05-02-2020 12:25am

deisedevil wrote: »

Why is it just wrong? What specifically makes it wrong? Do you know why it was done in the first place?

It's a shame that teachers couldn't have a system where performance was linked to pay. For example the harder I work and the more productive I am the better an increase I can push for every year during my performance review. No guaranteed increase based on service.

I have yet to meet anyone who isn't a teacher who agrees that we should bring the lower payscale into line with the old payscale. It was changed with good reason and there's precious little appetite out there for a return to the old days where we were overpaying our public sector workers. Those on the lower payscale went into the profession with their eyes open. They knew the terms. We can all see them. They knew that there were teachers on a higher payscale and the reason why this is so. If I came out of college and suddenly realised how much I was going to earn and wasn't happy with my payscale, I'd have to suck it up or go back to college and change profession. Why do the teachers get to hold the country to ransom?

I think Benicetomonty might have misread what I think you’re getting at in that second paragraph. If you’re arguing that there should be performance related pay for teachers (which is what I think you mean), that is simply unworkable, because there is so much diversity in our schools and in what is considered good performance. In many of the classes I teach, I have students who want to go to college and study medicine or engineering alongside students for whom getting a leaving cert at all is a big achievement (and not at all guaranteed). How do you propose that teachers in schools like that (of which there are hundreds of schools with thousands of teachers across the country) have their performance evaluated?

And while you’re at it, you seem to be very clear on the reason for the difference in pay scales but you haven’t actually told us what it is. Could you enlighten us, please?

Benicetomonty · 05-02-2020 12:34am

RealJohn wrote: »

I think Benicetomonty might have misread what I think you’re getting at in that second paragraph. If you’re arguing that there should be performance related pay for teachers (which is what I think you mean), that is simply unworkable, because there is so much diversity in our schools and in what is considered good performance. In many of the classes I teach, I have students who want to go to college and study medicine or engineering alongside students for whom getting a leaving cert at all is a big achievement (and not at all guaranteed). How do you propose that teachers in schools like that (of which there are hundreds of schools with thousands of teachers across the country) have their performance evaluated?

And while you’re at it, you seem to be very clear on the reason for the difference in pay scales but you haven’t actually told us what it is. Could you enlighten us, please?

I didnt misread it. I may have given him/her too much credit however

deisedevil · 05-02-2020 12:42am

Let's benchmark teachers in Ireland against their colleagues all around Europe and include their heavily subsided pensions in benchmarking. That would be fairest, wouldn't it? And to make sure it is fair for all, let's apply the results of the benchmarking to all teachers young and old and remove the current two tiers of pay. Shur who could argue with that. Everyone's happy then surely except for those who are currently earning far more than they are worth.

History Queen · 05-02-2020 12:53am

deisedevil wrote: »

Why is it just wrong? What specifically makes it wrong? Do you know why it was done in the first place?

It's a shame that teachers couldn't have a system where performance was linked to pay. For example the harder I work and the more productive I am the better an increase I can push for every year during my performance review. No guaranteed increase based on service.

I have yet to meet anyone who isn't a teacher who agrees that we should bring the lower payscale into line with the old payscale. It was changed with good reason and there's precious little appetite out there for a return to the old days where we were overpaying our public sector workers. Those on the lower payscale went into the profession with their eyes open. They knew the terms. We can all see them. They knew that there were teachers on a higher payscale and the reason why this is so. If I came out of college and suddenly realised how much I was going to earn and wasn't happy with my payscale, I'd have to suck it up or go back to college and change profession. Why do the teachers get to hold the country to ransom?

On your point about lower paid teachers going inwith their eyes open and knowing the conditions. That is false. Inform yourself. I was completing my teaching training at the time. When i began studying one payscale was in force, when i qualified a different scalewas in force. Equal pay for equal work is not unreasonable.

RealJohn · 05-02-2020 12:58am

deisedevil, I notice you didn’t answer either of my questions. They weren’t rhetorical. I was (and am) hoping that you’d answer them, because I’d genuinely like to know what you think in both cases.

History Queen · 05-02-2020 1:04am

deisedevil wrote: »

Let's benchmark teachers in Ireland against their colleagues all around Europe and include their heavily subsided pensions in benchmarking. That would be fairest, wouldn't it? And to make sure it is fair for all, let's apply the results of the benchmarking to all teachers young and old and remove the current two tiers of pay. Shur who could argue with that. Everyone's happy then surely except for those who are currently earning far more than they are worth.

And of course we will account for the fact that across Europe widely different educational systems are in place as well as thefact that Irish teachers have more class contact time than most of their European counterparts.

I also would ask you to inform yourself about the pension scheme post2011 teachers are on (approx 12,000 per year assuming 40 years service....and the contributions they make towards it (three different pension related deductions in everypay cheque) .

Treppen · 06-02-2020 12:26am

deisedevil wrote: »

Let's benchmark teachers in Ireland against their colleagues all around Europe and include their heavily subsided pensions in benchmarking. That would be fairest, wouldn't it? And to make sure it is fair for all, let's apply the results of the benchmarking to all teachers young and old and remove the current two tiers of pay. Shur who could argue with that. Everyone's happy then surely except for those who are currently earning far more than they are worth.

Could I get a source with that dogs dinner please?

RealJohn · 06-02-2020 12:58am

Pretty sure deisedevil is gone. The people who come in for cheap digs at teachers don’t tend to hang around when people start asking them hard questions. Probably why they don’t like teachers in the first place: they used to ask them hard questions.

Treppen · 06-02-2020 1:43pm

RealJohn wrote: »

Pretty sure deisedevil is gone. The people who come in for cheap digs at teachers don’t tend to hang around when people start asking them hard questions. Probably why they don’t like teachers in the first place: they used to ask them hard questions.

:pac:

Bobtheman · 06-02-2020 7:57pm

Nothing I have read here convinces me to vote Yes. Collegiality is dead in most staffrooms. The last dispute has proven that.
I feel going off into the hills to wait for the next union Messiah. Because at the moment I see no change among younger staff in terms of wanting a strike. They have the numbers to take over the union If only they could get off their arses and try.

doc_17 · 07-02-2020 7:46pm

deisedevil wrote: »

Why is it just wrong? What specifically makes it wrong? Do you know why it was done in the first place?

It's a shame that teachers couldn't have a system where performance was linked to pay. For example the harder I work and the more productive I am the better an increase I can push for every year during my performance review. No guaranteed increase based on service.

I have yet to meet anyone who isn't a teacher who agrees that we should bring the lower payscale into line with the old payscale. It was changed with good reason and there's precious little appetite out there for a return to the old days where we were overpaying our public sector workers. Those on the lower payscale went into the profession with their eyes open. They knew the terms. We can all see them. They knew that there were teachers on a higher payscale and the reason why this is so. If I came out of college and suddenly realised how much I was going to earn and wasn't happy with my payscale, I'd have to suck it up or go back to college and change profession. Why do the teachers get to hold the country to ransom?

You’ve heard of nurses right? They aren’t happy with it either. There’s loads of them. The new pay scales were changed in their last year of college so they had little control then to change course.

And the only group to ever really hold the country to ransom was the banks, a private sector company. That ransom was paid. Cop yourself on.

doc_17 · 07-02-2020 7:52pm

deisedevil wrote: »

Let's benchmark teachers in Ireland against their colleagues all around Europe and include their heavily subsided pensions in benchmarking. That would be fairest, wouldn't it? And to make sure it is fair for all, let's apply the results of the benchmarking to all teachers young and old and remove the current two tiers of pay. Shur who could argue with that. Everyone's happy then surely except for those who are currently earning far more than they are worth.

What do you work at yourself anyway? It couldn’t be anything that requires too much intelligence if that’s the idea you’re putting forward. Tell us, how would it work? Go on, tell us.

And tell us how much you think I’m playing towards my pension and for how many years you think I’ll get it. Go on, tell us.

I know you’ve already being proven wrong already on this thread, gives you a chance to redeem yourself. Make us take you seriously.

I expect none of these questions to answered.

Treppen · 07-02-2020 11:46pm

doc_17 wrote: »

What do you work at yourself anyway? It couldn’t be anything that requires too much intelligence if that’s the idea you’re putting forward. Tell us, how would it work? Go on, tell us.

And tell us how much you think I’m playing towards my pension and for how many years you think I’ll get it. Go on, tell us.

I know you’ve already being proven wrong already on this thread, gives you a chance to redeem yourself. Make us take you seriously.

I expect none of these questions to answered.

He well gone now

political analyst · 08-02-2020 5:32am

Benicetomonty wrote: »

ASTI have made it clear that no action will be taken without the support of at least one other teacher union so thats something, I guess.

Hard to know where a lot of NQT heads are at tbh. Im aware that the vast majority of deserters who jumped ship to the TUI in 2016 and 2017 were established, pre 2011 teachers, and I know that a lot the nqts that left did so because they were on the verge of 2 year CIDs and were threatened (sorry, no other word) to do so on that basis by management. So I do sympathise with them in that regard, and obviously the pay and pension cuts were and remain appalling.

However, based on some comments Ive been reading these last few days on Voice for Teachers, it would seem that a lot of young teachers are holding their unions exclusively responsible for what happened to them back in 2010/2011 in a case of really embittered misdirection. Dont get me wrong, teaching unions probably didnt do enough to fight the unequal pay scales; bottom line is we accepted the CP Agreement and everything that went with it. Were we up against a hopeless govt that had to attack the PS with everything they had? Yep. Were we also fighting Europe itself, ie the Troika and the IMF? Yep. Did the ICTU roll over at the earliest possible chance, thus leaving the ASTI and a few other unions totally isolated? You bet. Did we have to cope with the resentment of thousands of private sector workers who were obviously suffering at the time? Sure did. Were we threatened with compulsory redundancies if we didnt play ball? We certainly were. And is a union's loyalty to its members or potential future members? Of course, it has to be the former. Were we told many of the measures were only temporary? Yes. But we accepted Croke Park. And the from what Ive read, that's all a lot of NQTs are seeing.

Would it have made any difference if the ASTI had sent people to Germany to fight for public support over there? I think the German general public would have been sympathetic with teachers who were campaigning to protect education. After all, Germany takes education very seriously, given its recent history. However, I guess that's a matter for a different forum.

RealJohn · 08-02-2020 12:00pm

political analyst wrote: »

Would it have made any difference if the ASTI had sent people to Germany to fight for public support over there? I think the German general public would have been sympathetic with teachers who were campaigning to protect education. After all, Germany takes education very seriously, given its recent history. However, I guess that's a matter for a different forum.

That would be an interesting one alright. I wonder what would happen if planeloads of Irish teachers (on the higher scale, obvs) went over and marched in Brussels or Berlin, given that our politicians pretend to care what the EU thinks. I wonder how it would be received by the locals.
Might be a good session too.

Seriously though, it’d be interesting. Would never happen, but it would be interesting.

acequion · 08-02-2020 1:08pm

Closer to home and also probably one for its own thread, but I wonder what will happen today? Will the country boot out the Blueshirts and will the new Govt be more amenable to pay equality?

And are we stuck forever more with massively deteriorated conditions? Poor sick leave? The hated CP hours to follow us til death do we part? Or early retirement as is the case for many, even though they can't really afford it.

I was amazed that not one of the wannabes came to my door, though my letter box has been filled with junk. Am giving my first pref to FF. I did PBP last time out but this time I've decided to vote for an actual Govt and traditionally FF, though not much better and in ways worse than FG, are the lesser of the two evils for public servants.

km79 · 08-02-2020 1:09pm

acequion wrote: »

Closer to home and also probably one for its own thread, but I wonder what will happen today? Will the country boot out the Blueshirts and will the new Govt be more amenable to pay equality?

And are we stuck forever more with massively deteriorated conditions? Poor sick leave? The hated CP hours to follow us til death do we part? Or early retirement as is the case for many, even though they can't really afford it.

I was amazed that not one of the wannabes came to my door, though my letter box has been filled with junk. Am giving my first pref to FF. I did PBP last time out but this time I've decided to vote for an actual Govt and traditionally FF, though not much better and in ways worse than FG, are the lesser of the two evils for public servants.

Education is not a priority for any of them

acequion · 08-02-2020 1:18pm

km79 wrote: »

Education is not a priority for any of them

You'd wonder if anything really is a priority for these people other than feathering their own nests.:rolleyes: Hard not to be cynical.

greenttc · 08-02-2020 1:43pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

My generation have huge mortgage debt. NQTs have high rents but all drive cars and have a lifestyle I didn't have in my 20s and 30s.
.

This is just a mad generalisation and totally incorrect. Why would you think NQT's don't have mortgages? You are thinking in a very linear way and have no concept of the demographics of NQT's because a huge number have mortgages and young families and have bills as big as yours to pay... NQT's are not all straight out of school and then college and into a teaching job, many have worked elsewhere for years and then moved into teaching. You need to broaden how you are thinking about this situation.

Regardless of all the inaccuracies in this thread, it is a clear example of how the division in teachers and unions over this is unbelievably beneficial to government. We are fighting among ourselves and it is hindering us in so many ways, government are going to leave us fight it out and they will sit back and do nothing because we are doing a fine job of suppressing our voice all on our own.

Nobody cared about the strike this week, even in schools it was a bit of a non event. Unity of Unions is most definitely what is needed but sadly we are so far away from that. It can only start though, with everyone being a little bit less selfish, NQT's need to support older colleagues and be more active in unions and likewise older colleagues need to understand how they are the ones with the power to help their younger lesser paid colleagues and so should be a little more sympathetic. Do you really think NQT's deserve less money than you? Do you think NQT's do less work or a worse job?

greenttc · 08-02-2020 1:46pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

I have seen younger staff climb over the bodies of older members to get promotion.

Id also like a little more information on what is being said here.

I wont jump to any conclusions yet.......

ASTI threaten strike action

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