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30-01-2020, 06:44   #1
katherinexoxo
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Upcoming trip to Ireland & finding remaining ancestors

Hello all,

Not sure if anyone can help me here but I thought I would make some additional efforts before my upcoming summer trip to Ireland. I have been researching my family tree for about 20 years. This trip will include southern Ireland, next trip northern. For Cavan & Sligo I have been able to locate the townlands my ancestors came from, some existing relatives & all three farms are still owned/farmed by family.

However for this trip which will include Dublin (the Liberties & St, Catherine's Parish), Kildare (Ballyraggan/Graney/Knockpatrick & Baltinglass Parish/Rathvilly) and Cork (Knockskagh/Crohane & Clonakilty Parish), I have not been able to trace forward the ancestors who I think stayed on in Ireland.

In Kildare, I can find baptismal, marriage & death records as well as census listings for 1901 & 1911 but then a dead end. I located a few burials of the family at Knockpatrick cemetery but other family members are not there. I would like to check other cemeteries but not sure where to look. Couple married at Rathdaniel, Carlow & then lived at Graney/Ballyraggan.

In Cork, the youngest sister of my 2XGF stayed in Ireland at least until the 1901 census, her father died at Knockskagh/Knockscagh in 1895, her mother died in Clonakilty town in 1905. She married twice both husbands died but I can find her in the 1901 census with her mother & 2 daughters, then nothing. I am wondering which local cemetery the family might have used. Why does everyone have the same surname- Donovan? Seriously I am never going to get to the bottom of this.

For both Cork & Kildare is it possible to do more research once I get to Dublin in terms of locating the actual farm they lived at within the townlands of Graney/Ballyraggan/Knockpatrick and then Knockskagh/Crohane? I am not sure what land records might show as I suspect they were tenant farmers and did not at least initially own anything.

Would you suggest I try asking for local help on Ireland Reaching Out?

I recently became frustrated enough that I submitted my DNA. Both of my parents have also submitted theirs with results pending. The DNA helped me prove my Kildare connection which was a 20 year puzzle. I have a lot more to sort out with the DNA results however.

Any suggestions would be appreciated & I can provide more detailed information as well.

Thanks!
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30-01-2020, 06:57   #2
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A couple of days spent in the National Library of Ireland on Kildare st will probably reap dividends.

I believe you can search through most of the online catalogue to narrow down your search time when you go in there.

Parish Births deaths etc. are all in there and may lead you to some better information.

As for changing direction and chasing up the ancestors descendants, that could be tricky, but it might be one thing that social media is actually useful for.

The Irish population runs at about 3 degrees of separation, which is why we all have so much checking out do you know so and so when we meet someone from a part of the country we have friends in when we cross paths in some far flung armpit of the world.
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30-01-2020, 11:20   #3
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Well, I would disagree that spending time at the NLI will help at this stage of your research. A lot of what is available (beyond on the spot genealogists to advise) is also online.

The Valuation Office on Lower Abbey St (www.valoff.ie) will allow you to search forward from Griffiths Valuation (online AskaboutIreland) to 1977 and see who owned the land then. These records are not online. This would be of use for the farming ancestors. Almost certainly people will not have owned the land they farmed. If there are registered leases, then the Registry of Deeds might have something but, to be honest, I wouldn't advise using precious holiday time there because it could swallow it all up without actually finding anything. The records of the Landed Estates Commission (on various commercial sites) might also have something.

For Dubliners, it's obviously much harder to find them because they moved around a lot. If you can locate people on 1911, you should be able to fill in the gaps with www.irishgenealogy.ie using the civil records which have births up to 1919, marriages up to 1944 and deaths up to 1969. This being a free site, you can do it from home. When you get to Dublin, it might be useful to use the electoral registers on computer (but not online) in the Dublin City Library & Archive on Pearse St. These records span 1938-1965.

Also of use everywhere will be local newspapers (IrishNewsArchives or British Newspaper Arvchive) for the mid-20th century, as almost everyone will have a death notice. Used in conjunction with the death records on IrishGenealogy, this would hopefully yield some burial locations. Maps will also be helpful here, but also realise that you may just not ever find where people are buried. Many people didn't have money for headstones even up to the 1940s.

I've never used Ireland XOXO myself but have heard it can be useful - very much depends on the people involved. You could also investigate whether a relevant area has a local history society - pretty sure Baltinglass does, for example.
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30-01-2020, 11:58   #4
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I have been doing my own genealogy research online through one of the paid sites, also through its affiliated DNA service. It’s been a slow process overall, but I have uncovered many family mysteries. I subscribe to a newspaper service which has provided the odd snippet, and I learned that one family member was a spy with a house in Russia! I have got to be in touch with and even meet distant far flung cousins. New records come online from time to time, uncovering ever more facts.

Sometimes dropping into communities/centres where you believe your family members may still be living can be very interesting. Eg, some cousins and I dropped by the area of Easky in County Sligo, where we knew there are family roots. We ended up talking to somebody who turned out to be a third cousin, a lovely elderly lady who was full of precisely the same family lore as my late mother was, the same names popping up. A lot of gaps were filled in, old albums taken out over a cup of tea. We even learned that some family members run a farmhouse bed & breakfast from a very fine old house that was built by the brother of my great grandfather.

So much research can be done at home online, but going to a place associated with an ancestor will not only give you some sense of the ancestors’ life but you could come face to face with some of their descendants. It can make for some memorable times and something worthwhile is always learned.
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30-01-2020, 18:50   #5
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https://www.failteromhat.com/index_org.php
V good for clonakilty if you haven't used before.
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31-01-2020, 05:37   #6
katherinexoxo
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Hello!

Thank you everyone for all of your help. Just knowing what is available on the ground is the best starting point.

Balmed Out I too have utilized that site frequently in the past. Catmaniac my Sligo ancestors & current descendants are from Kilglass Parish & I suspect some may have spilled over into Easky as well.

I think I will land in Dublin a couple days before my husband to do some research. I want to spend some time just wandering around the Liberties as I have several old residential addresses from there & maybe I can even attend Mass at St. Catherine's.

I have been able to access majority of the online records, building as much of a tree as I can for each line. Baptismal sponsors have me up at night thinking they are all cousins, etc. whom I cannot link to the tree.

Can I access the newspapers at the NLI, GRO, etc.? Do I need a library card or membership? Would people who died in the late 1800s typically have a death notice?

Does anyone know if Ireland kept any apprentice records? I know Great Britain did for some trades. One of my ancestors was a Currier, lived at Tenter Fields. I have read that the trade involved an apprenticeship and often other relatives like the father were in the same occupation.

I have a paid subscription to Ancestry US. Do any of the genealogy sites in Dublin allow patron access to sites like Ancestry World or UK, and Find My Past? Geez I could be in there forever.

Are there any sites in Ireland that you find super interesting for genealogy? I am considering visiting the Famine Museum in Skibbereen and the Port at Cobh. I plan to see each of the Catholic Churches as well. I am also interested in seeing a Poor Law Union Workhouse. Any recommendations would be very much appreciated. I think there is a tenement type museum in Dublin? I plan to tour the Guinness Storehouse as one of my ancestors once worked there.
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31-01-2020, 10:17   #7
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My family arent from Clonakilty but I do live there so if you have any questions that I may be able to help with fire away. Knockscagh would be a rural area north west of Clon so records may list rosscarberry as often as Clon. O'Donovan and Hayes would be all over the area !
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31-01-2020, 10:38   #8
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Originally Posted by katherinexoxo View Post
Hello!

Can I access the newspapers at the NLI, GRO, etc.? Do I need a library card or membership? Would people who died in the late 1800s typically have a death notice?

Does anyone know if Ireland kept any apprentice records? I know Great Britain did for some trades. One of my ancestors was a Currier, lived at Tenter Fields. I have read that the trade involved an apprenticeship and often other relatives like the father were in the same occupation.

I have a paid subscription to Ancestry US. Do any of the genealogy sites in Dublin allow patron access to sites like Ancestry World or UK, and Find My Past? Geez I could be in there forever.
Lot of things to respond to here:
National Library has a genealogy room with access to Ancestry, FMP, Irish News Archive and some other bits. You don't need a Reader's ticket to access this room. More details on the NLI website.

Death notices in the late 19th century would really only be for middle-class or wealthy people. It doesn't become standard until the 1930s.

For occupational records, read John Grenham's latest Tracing your Irish Ancestors on that topic. I also think Claire Santry's book would be very useful for you as explains records in their historical context.
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01-02-2020, 00:08   #9
 
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Some random comments
Fully agree with Pinky’s suggestions.
During holiday seasons (St. Patrick’s Day/Easter/Summer) the NLI is busy and there are waiting times for the computer terminals.
Newspaper archives can be accessed in the NLI, it’s been a while since I was there but from memory you cannot copy/cut/paste/email, you need to print.
Use Google streetview, quite a bit of the Liberties has been demolished/rebuilt.
Ireland XO is worth a try, I’ve helped a few visitors on that site.
Apprentice records – no idea of Irish ones, but I have looked at one of the Guilds in London and all I got was the ancestor’s name, that of his father and a date.
Famine museum – as you are going to Cavan, it might be more practical to visit Strokestown House rather than Skibereen.
The tenement museum is HERE https://14henriettastreet.ie/
You should also visit EPIC in Dublin
If you’ve not visited/driven here before, allow more time for distances/travel times compared to the US
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01-02-2020, 14:23   #10
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A Suggestion for your visit.

Katherinexoxo -

In America you would be familiar with Post Codes, you call them Zip Codes. In Ireland we have "Eircode", probably the world's most advanced post code system.
Every address (mail box) has an individual code. A road with say 20 farmhouses on it would actually have 20 different Eircodes. The big thing about these codes are that they are all on Google Maps!
Try this - 7/8 Kildare St, Dublin D02 P638. This is the address for the National Library of Ireland.
Put D02 P638 into Google Maps, search, and see what you get.
If you have the Eircodes for the addresses you want to visit, prior to arriving, it will save you a great deal of time looking for places.

BowWow.
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02-02-2020, 01:51   #11
katherinexoxo
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Thank you so much! I can't believe how much help I have received on this thread.

Although I have been at this for years, I feel like I still have so much to learn. I have also reached out to several local libraries & History Centers. I figure it never hurts.

Prior to a family trip to Northern Italy I had attempted this same approach with no response. While we were on our way to the village my grandfather was born in, I received an email reply from the librarian of the nearest town. She met us at the village (she was in fact born there), had a tour of the castle set up for us, took us to see my ancestor's home, had someone come and unlock the church so we could see the inside and finally her parents made us dinner & they spoke no English.

I plan to see the Epic Museum and also the Tenement Museum in Dublin.

Pedroeiber1 I am going to make 2 trips to Ireland- the next trip will include Sligo, Cavan (family sites) and Northern Ireland. This trip will include Dubin, Carlow/Kildare, Cork (family sites) as well as Dingle & COM.

Thank you pinkypinky for showing me how to find the map locations from Griffith's, I never tried to extrapolate.

For Kildare, if a baptismal record lists the townland of Ballyraggan, but the 1901 & 1911 lists Graney West would you think the family actually moved or is it more likely just what someone called the place name? They are right next to each other. The death record states Knockpatrick but the census for the exact same year lists Graney West. In the Kildare census there are only 5 farms in Graney West. I have looked at Google earth and there appears to be only 6 homes there today. How can I determine which plot/house correlates with the one from the census? I don't have the Eircode.

For Cork, there are so many Donovans I am having trouble finding a definitive location in Griffith's. I don't know how much people moved around. If you had ten children did a couple stay & work that plot of land while others sought out work or land nearby? My relative has his children's place of birth listed as Crohane in the baptismal records for Clonakilty. His place of death, a daughter's marriage & the birth of two of grandchildren takes place at Knockskagh/Knuckskagh which abuts Crohane. After the father dies, they move to Clonakilty town. I cannot trace them after the 1911 census.

If I look at Griffith's for Knockskagh, I find an Andrew & Timothy Donovan. Possible brothers, father or uncles perhaps. I can also see that some of the baptismal sponsors for my Donovan ancestors lived at Knockskagh. Would it be safe to assume the family stayed in one place? Did the husband ever go to live with the wife's family? When the father died in 1895 who would the farm go to? I don't know if at that time it was still a lease or owned.

I cannot find the marriage record for James Donovan & Julia Moore in Cork. It may have occurred before the records were kept. There are plenty of Moores listed in the Catholic records. Is it possible that the wife & her family were COI? Are there any clues in terms of last names for who may have been Protestant? I have also wondered this for several other surnames like Buchanan and Gordon.

Lastly, Balmed Out if you have any restaurant suggestions for the general area around Clonakilty that would be awesome. This may be a stretch but do you know what cemetery would be the closest to Knockskagh & Crohane? It seems like cemetery names & locations aren't always listed online to find.

I can't thank you guys enough!!!!

Katherine

Last edited by katherinexoxo; 02-02-2020 at 08:54.
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02-02-2020, 11:20   #12
Earnest
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Originally Posted by katherinexoxo View Post

...

For Kildare, if a baptismal record lists the townland of Ballyraggan, but the 1901 & 1911 lists Graney West would you think the family actually moved or is it more likely just what someone called the place name? They are right next to each other. The death record states Knockpatrick but the census for the exact same year lists Graney West. In the Kildare census there are only 5 farms in Graney West. I have looked at Google earth and there appears to be only 6 homes there today. How can I determine which plot/house correlates with the one from the census? I don't have the Eircode.

For Cork, there are so many Donovans I am having trouble finding a definitive location in Griffith's. I don't know how much people moved around. If you had ten children did a couple stay & work that plot of land while others sought out work or land nearby? My relative has his children's place of birth listed as Crohane in the baptismal records for Clonakilty. His place of death, a daughter's marriage & the birth of two of grandchildren takes place at Knockskagh/Knuckskagh which abuts Crohane. After the father dies, they move to Clonakilty town. I cannot trace them after the 1911 census.

If I look at Griffith's for Knockskagh, I find an Andrew & Timothy Donovan. Possible brothers, father or uncles perhaps. I can also see that some of the baptismal sponsors for my Donovan ancestors lived at Knockskagh. Would it be safe to assume the family stayed in one place? Did the husband ever go to live with the wife's family? When the father died in 1895 who would the farm go to? I don't know if at that time it was still a lease or owned.

I cannot find the marriage record for James Donovan & Julia Moore in Cork. It may have occurred before the records were kept. There are plenty of Moores listed in the Catholic records. Is it possible that the wife & her family were COI? Are there any clues in terms of last names for who may have been Protestant? I have also wondered this for several other surnames like Buchanan and Gordon.

...

Katherine
The priest would probably not have worried about townland boundaries and would be going by general perception. But whereas Graney is a village, Ballyraggan is just a townland, so it is surprising that he would use that if they were born in Graney.

If you want the Eircode for an address, you go to https://finder.eircode.ie/#/, enter e.g. Ballyraggan, then click "View on map", then click "Get Eircode" for which you have to move the map to the house you're interested in.

Buchanan and Gordon sound Protestant. Try surnames at johngrenham.com. This is a pay site and after a couple of attempts it asks you to pay, so you come back another day. The chances of surnames of English or Scottish origin being Protestant are about 3 in 4.
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03-02-2020, 10:34   #13
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Clonakilty has a museum, unfortunately closed for the winter; however you can contact them via the Facebook page so they may be able to help https://www.facebook.com/ClonakiltyMuseum/

Allow lots of time when you visit the rural locations. You will probably look suspicious as you drive slowly looking into fields, so expect someone to turn up enquiring who you are. Take advantage and explain your quest. This sometimes generates offers of cups of tea and hours of chat [or so I've found].

The liberties area has changed a lot & many of the old buildings are gone.
You could check the historic maps in UCD for background https://libguides.ucd.ie/findingmaps/mapshistDublin;
also there are Facebook pages with photos https://bit.ly/37U06B4; Dublin in the rare old times https://bit.ly/37XxmY8

Dublin city library in Pearse St is a must visit as it has so many records of Dublin

For cemeteries, most catholic Dubliners would have been buried in Glasnevin, protestants in Mount Jerome. Glasnevin has an online search facility - pricey [https://www.glasnevinmuseum.ie/genealogy/];
the Dublin city library has images of the Mount Jerome Registers https://bit.ly/36RzZJC;
Findagrave.com may have records of burials of your ancestors [see search on Donvans at https://bit.ly/37Rcimc]
The Irish Genealogy Project has transcribed many 1000s of headstones throughout Ireland https://bit.ly/396t1SO - you can search by surname or cemetery - here's the result for Donovans https://bit.ly/2OoYUhr

The National Library photographic collection can be searched here https://www.nli.ie/digital-photographs.aspx

Enjoy the trip!
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03-02-2020, 10:45   #14
cameramonkey
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Originally Posted by katherinexoxo View Post
Thank you so much! I can't believe how much help I have received on this thread.

Although I have been at this for years, I feel like I still have so much to learn. I have also reached out to several local libraries & History Centers. I figure it never hurts.

Prior to a family trip to Northern Italy I had attempted this same approach with no response. While we were on our way to the village my grandfather was born in, I received an email reply from the librarian of the nearest town. She met us at the village (she was in fact born there), had a tour of the castle set up for us, took us to see my ancestor's home, had someone come and unlock the church so we could see the inside and finally her parents made us dinner & they spoke no English.

I plan to see the Epic Museum and also the Tenement Museum in Dublin.

Pedroeiber1 I am going to make 2 trips to Ireland- the next trip will include Sligo, Cavan (family sites) and Northern Ireland. This trip will include Dubin, Carlow/Kildare, Cork (family sites) as well as Dingle & COM.

Thank you pinkypinky for showing me how to find the map locations from Griffith's, I never tried to extrapolate.

For Kildare, if a baptismal record lists the townland of Ballyraggan, but the 1901 & 1911 lists Graney West would you think the family actually moved or is it more likely just what someone called the place name? They are right next to each other. The death record states Knockpatrick but the census for the exact same year lists Graney West. In the Kildare census there are only 5 farms in Graney West. I have looked at Google earth and there appears to be only 6 homes there today. How can I determine which plot/house correlates with the one from the census? I don't have the Eircode.

For Cork, there are so many Donovans I am having trouble finding a definitive location in Griffith's. I don't know how much people moved around. If you had ten children did a couple stay & work that plot of land while others sought out work or land nearby? My relative has his children's place of birth listed as Crohane in the baptismal records for Clonakilty. His place of death, a daughter's marriage & the birth of two of grandchildren takes place at Knockskagh/Knuckskagh which abuts Crohane. After the father dies, they move to Clonakilty town. I cannot trace them after the 1911 census.

If I look at Griffith's for Knockskagh, I find an Andrew & Timothy Donovan. Possible brothers, father or uncles perhaps. I can also see that some of the baptismal sponsors for my Donovan ancestors lived at Knockskagh. Would it be safe to assume the family stayed in one place? Did the husband ever go to live with the wife's family? When the father died in 1895 who would the farm go to? I don't know if at that time it was still a lease or owned.

I cannot find the marriage record for James Donovan & Julia Moore in Cork. It may have occurred before the records were kept. There are plenty of Moores listed in the Catholic records. Is it possible that the wife & her family were COI? Are there any clues in terms of last names for who may have been Protestant? I have also wondered this for several other surnames like Buchanan and Gordon.

Lastly, Balmed Out if you have any restaurant suggestions for the general area around Clonakilty that would be awesome. This may be a stretch but do you know what cemetery would be the closest to Knockskagh & Crohane? It seems like cemetery names & locations aren't always listed online to find.

I can't thank you guys enough!!!!

Katherine

Put up a list of your family names and the areas you think they are from.
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03-02-2020, 23:25   #15
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There is an Irish Workhouse Centre in Portumna in the original workhouse building. The website is here: http://irishworkhousecentre.ie/
I haven't yet gone myself but it's on the to-do list. I went to a workhouse talk though hosted by the person in cahrge of the place and it was very interesting. A lot of workhouses were demolished, including the one in my hometown, so there aren't a lot still standing as they were.

In terms of websites for locating headstones, I've had the best look with Find A Grave for my ancestors. The earliest headstone that I found online was erected in 1863 for a 3x great grandfather's daughter when she died. My 3x great grandfather died in 1871 and is also buried there with his wife (with her maiden name included - the only source that I have for her maiden name) and his son. The headstone is quite worn when seen in person so it's great to have the transcription online. It could happen that the cemetery where your ancestors were buried may have no coverage though. As suggested, it's a good idea to check all the grave websites available.

In terms of death notices, the earliest that I could find for my family was in 1925 so it might be after your period of interest unless you get lucky. There are deaths recorded in the 1800s but they're usually people connected to or of social standing such as if they had a business, owned lots of land or had a prominent role in the community. You can get lucky with other articles in the newspapers though. The earliest mention that I could find of an ancestor was a 3x great grandfather in 1829 registering a freehold in order to vote and another in 1831. There are also articles in the 1880s relating to a 3x great grandfather's involvement in the Land League. I found out that a 3x great grandmother and her three youngest children were evicted from their house in 1898 through the newspapers under an order made in an equity suit instituted by the Ulster Bank, creditors. It wasn't even the landlord who evicted them but rather someone bought their debt from the bank and got the place that way. The landlord actually wrote a letter to the buyer saying that if he, as a landlord, did half as much in buying out other people's debts and evicting families, he would be billed all over Ireland. If they were in court that could also be in the newspapers. I've found a few of them as well. I find in court accounts that neither side ends up coming across very positively. If an ancestor was involved in an incident, that could be recorded as well. The death in 1925 that I mentioned gave a great account of his character. It made for sad reading, especialling knowing that he was only 20 and the baby of the family. I also found out that he was intending to travel to Australia when he died in a train accident which we never knew. I was always told about his death growing up and a portrait was kept of him in the house. If his death hadn't occurred then, the first death recorded in the family that I could find would have been of his father in 1937.

The court records in FindMyPast can be useful as well. The majority are just petty cases. There's a great variety though. A 3x great grandfather was in court 11 times over 3 years with the same man. It was just a back and forth between both with both having their animals trespass on each other's land. To make it better, the other man was his daughter's father-in-law with my ancestor's son-in-law sometimes acting as a witness and even being brought to court by his father. Some are more serious like a 2x great grandfather being assaulted and robbed. A more morbid one being a 3x great grandfather bringing someone to court for burying a corpse in his private plot in 1872. The earliest that I could find was in 1854 for a 3x great grandfather rescuing a calf that had been seized for income tax. There were a lot of cases of unpaid dog licences. I had to laugh at a 2x great grandfather being brought to court for a breach of the peace on St. Patrick's Day along with a man who was my childhood next door neighbour's ancestor.

There are also the poverty relief loans that were taken out during the famine time. I have a few instances of this whether an ancestor was taking out the loan or acting as a guarantor.

I find that these sources are great for bringing ancestors to life in a way that BMD records can't and even making family connections. I wouldn't know of some except for the newspapers and some can reveal cousin relationships and marriages with cousins and in-laws going to court. You can get access to FindMyPast and the newspapers in the NLI but you could spend hours searching them!

Last edited by srmf5; 03-02-2020 at 23:58.
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