Should We Abolish Dáil?

Belfast · 16-01-2012 7:38pm #1

As most votes in the Dáil are decided by party whips do we need Dáil for anything other that to electing the Taoiseach.

I think the Dáil and Seanad should be replaced by an elector college to Taoiseach.

Taoiseach and Cabinet can do the job with then.

I do not think it would make things any better but it would save the cost of running the Dáil and Seanad.

edit
oops I think I may have put this in the wrong forum

MOD NOTE:

Moved to Politics main page from Political Theory.

Reekwind · 26-02-2012 6:31pm

Can you put a price on parliamentary democracy? Apparently you can...

Overheal · 27-02-2012 2:18pm

It's a democracy, not a horse. You don't shoot it in the face if it's got a ganky left foot.

hatrickpatrick · 27-02-2012 2:20pm

^ It's not a democracy with the whip system in place.
Either it should be reformed to actually function as a democracy, or else it's a pointless waste of space.

Overheal · 27-02-2012 2:58pm

Precisely my point. Address the crop, not the horse.

gbee · 27-02-2012 3:01pm

Yes, I've long said we don't live in a democracy. And recent events show clearly that we are ruled from another country anyway.

gerryo777 · 27-02-2012 3:04pm

Why do we need 160 odd of these overpaid fools anyway. They don't run the country, they're nothing but glorified penpushers for merkel & co.

Tzar Chasm · 27-02-2012 3:14pm

Maybe the solution is to abolish the party whip system and have our elected reps vote how We tell them.

Get back to the old cummman system where policy decisions came from the grassroots up as opposed to the current top down method

gbee · 27-02-2012 3:18pm

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

Maybe the solution is to abolish the party whip system and have our elected reps vote how We tell them.

Absolutely, politicians stand for certain things, say the new house tax, you elect a local person because they say no to this tax. That should be their vote in the chamber.

We should be able to impeach TDs who voted the opposite way to their election campaign.

Chucky the tree · 27-02-2012 3:31pm

gbee wrote: »

Absolutely, politicians stand for certain things, say the new house tax, you elect a local person because they say no to this tax. That should be their vote in the chamber.

We should be able to impeach TDs who voted the opposite way to their election campaign.

Since we nearly always have a coalition Government that will always be nearly impossible.

Riskymove · 27-02-2012 3:45pm

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Since we nearly always have a coalition Government that will always be nearly impossible.

indeed, a simplistic view

and what if promises were made to, say, cut taxes and increase spending.....and then the day they took office there was an economic crash...would you expect them to go ahead and stick to promises?

Ellis Dee · 27-02-2012 3:54pm

As Machiavelli pointed out, in a democracy people get the leaders they deserve.:)

What is an "elector college", by the way, and does the OP believe it should be chosen by the enfranchised citizens of the State? Would it have any function other than choosing the Taoiseach, which the OP seems to be suggesting?:)

In reply to the question, no, I do not believe we should abolish the Dáil. Reform, restructure, perhaps even rename it certainly, but not abolish.:D

(Incidentally, I don't believe we should abolish articles in English, either. Using them enables one to write more intelligibly.):rolleyes:

gbee · 27-02-2012 6:29pm

Riskymove wrote: »

indeed, a simplistic view

and what if promises were made to, say, cut taxes and increase spending.....and then the day they took office there was an economic crash...would you expect them to go ahead and stick to promises?

You know what I mean, we have far too many in local and national politicians, elected on a ticket and then abandon it, blatantly in a few cases.

southsiderosie · 27-02-2012 6:29pm

Ellis Dee wrote: »

(Incidentally, I don't believe we should abolish articles in English, either. Using them enables one to write more intelligibly.):rolleyes:

MOD NOTE:

Is this kind of stuff really necessary? Clearly you understood the OP well enough to respond to it. I think you can make your point without getting a dig in.

Godge · 27-02-2012 6:36pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

^ It's not a democracy with the whip system in place.
Either it should be reformed to actually function as a democracy, or else it's a pointless waste of space.

Yes, get rid of the whip system and end up like the US Houses of Congress where every Bill has a list of consitutency favours attached to it in order to gain support.

You would give the likes of Healy-Rae and Lowry power over every vote and we would end up a basket-case.

Zombrex · 27-02-2012 7:38pm

gbee wrote: »

Absolutely, politicians stand for certain things, say the new house tax, you elect a local person because they say no to this tax. That should be their vote in the chamber.

We should be able to impeach TDs who voted the opposite way to their election campaign.

Or people could simply not vote for him the next time around.

The problem in this country is not the politicians, it is the electorate. It took years for FF to be thrown out, literally years. There are still people who defend them, and by proxy defend their votes which elected them. If politicians have no fear that the electorate will turn on them then they will care very little about serving the electorate with anything more than mere populism.

Pandora2 · 28-02-2012 12:09am

In order to become the master, the politician poses as the servant.
Charles de Gaulle

The Whip system has long frustrated me....I cringe when I see them do complete u-turns in such short periods of time that it is hard to believe they ever intended to keep their campaign pledges at all!!! I think Monsieur De Gaulle had it right:(

Liam Byrne · 28-02-2012 12:36am

gbee wrote: »

Yes, I've long said we don't live in a democracy. And recent events show clearly that we are ruled from another country anyway.

At least hey can't do any worse to us than FF did.

It's worth wondering, though; if the useless and lying Dâil setup was disbanded, would the external forces do us a favour and root out the waste ?

In other words, is the only reason us normal people are feeling the brunt of things down to cronyism, Kenny breaking pay caps, Quinn breaking expenses caps and Ahern breaking - well - everything with his Corke Park Crap & Bertie Bowl and nod/winks to the con-men now in NAMA ?

Would we actually be better off ?

gbee · 28-02-2012 12:45am

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Would we actually be better off ?

Iceland. I don't quite understand Iceland, but they sacked their parliament and told the banks to go dive in a glacier.

For a short time they were looking like Germany in the early 20th century, but in six months they are better than us in our three years already and better than us in our projected seven year period.

In four years time we will be at square one, they, seemingly will be a major player and have a good credit rating.

Liam Byrne · 28-02-2012 1:02am

gbee wrote: »

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Would we actually be better off ?

Iceland. I don't quite understand Iceland, but they sacked their parliament and told the banks to go dive in a glacier.

For a short time they were looking like Germany in the early 20th century, but in six months they are better than us in our three years already and better than us in our projected seven year period.

In four years time we will be at square one, they, seemingly will be a major player and have a good credit rating.

And meanwhile in the UK you resign if you expense-charge a newspaper, while here in Ireland you vote the con-man in question back in.

antoobrien · 28-02-2012 12:24pm

gbee wrote: »

Iceland. I don't quite understand Iceland, but they sacked their parliament and told the banks to go dive in a glacier.

For a short time they were looking like Germany in the early 20th century, but in six months they are better than us in our three years already and better than us in our projected seven year period.

Apples and oranges. Iceland had several options that were not available to Ireland e.g. devaluing the currency.

Besides, what isn't put into the medai very often is that there is a lot of unemployment and repossessions of property still going on in Iceland.

If you want to take a look at where we are a better view would be to take a look at the bond yields that we are getting. If we're in the worse economic climate since the 80s why are the current levels way below what we were getting in the 80s?

There is a capital bond to be repaid this year @ 8.75% issued in 1986 and one in 2015 @ 8.25% issued in 1994.

Anyhow back to the topic, somebody mentioend the whip system.

Irish nationalists (Parnell) introduced the whip system to the house of commons in order to get their issues dealt with. It works, because it looks at the greater good of the nation not what somebody in rosocmmon, galway, cork, kerry or dublin north central thinks we should be doing.

TDs always have the option of resigning the whip if they feel strongly enough.

Climber · 28-02-2012 2:50pm

The Dail is a NATIONAL parliament filled with people with LOCAL objectives.

This is the big problem.

Reform local government to allow people vote for their local council who in turn have the power to raise local taxes to pay for local services.

The TD's will then be able to get on with their job of legislating, instead of ensure that Kerry gets an old-folks home!

mikemac1 · 28-02-2012 3:04pm

I trust my TD's more then my councillors

I'm nervous about giving more power to the councils.

And if every council are going to have the power to raise local taxes well I'm looking to my neighbours in Offaly, Clare and them boyos down in Tipp South and comparing to them.

Over thirty different councils and hundreds of town councils and every one of them with different goals and issues. Some have reserves and some are broke, some have slashed rates to try to help small business and some leave the rates sky high

Time for some merging I think, better to managed by a region then read about the local town councillors slamming the county councillors who blame the other town council up the road who seems to be talking about Palestine instead of local issues

Last month our local councillors were giving out about someone passing motions on Palestine while he declared he'll talk about whatever he wants
Children :mad:

Climber · 28-02-2012 3:19pm

I trust my TD's more then my councillors

You distrust your councillors because they have zero responsibility and, crucially, they have zero accountability. The do nothing and nothing happens to them.

I've emigrated to Switzerland and I can see the benefit in the Swiss keeping local politics local. In the area where I live the local government officials are responsible for ensuring the potholes are filled in, local services are of a decent quality etc. The local Swiss people vote for them and can get them fired if they are unhappy with them.

Think about it, the reason why Kerry folk vote for Jackie is because his job is to go up to Dublin with his hand out and get what he can for Kerry. If he was responsible for ensuring Kerry council produced a balanced budget through raising taxes and spending on local services would the Kerry folk vote for the likes of Jackie to do this job? I think not. They would vote for a responsible & competent person.

Lantus · 10-04-2012 12:50pm

Big problems with western democracy full stop: -

1/ Parties. Most countries have now 'evolved' to a two party state in which they both take turns. Hardly choice and really just the thin edge of democracy by any definition. There is hardly any difference between them.

2/ Parties hold power not individual TD's or politician's. When it comes to vote you must vote for the party because you have sworn an allegiance to them. (Why do we need hundred's of politicians then? Again the illusion of choice and freedom.)

3/ promises that need not be kept. You can say just about anything at election time or even during your tenure in government and you dont need to do it. There is no contract or obligation for you to do anything you were elected to do or come back if you fail. People will argue that we can just vote them out for another party. Do you mean the one other party that is just biding it's time making promises it knows it wont really need to keep knowing it will voted in regardless? The problem is that for several decades we have successive government and neither keep their promises or undertake the wishes of the people. The illusion of a vote every 4 to 5 years is not going to make parties stick to their election promises.

The western model of democracy is broken. We've been conditioned to hold it up as the premier model of freedom, choice and democracy in it's purest and best but the reality is it provides no choice, offers no real solutions and wont ever deliver change in any way the people perceive it will.

Paradoxically the country perceived to be the most democratic is is many ways the least, the USA. Every 4 years a small group of incredibly rich and powerful men backed by even more wealthy and powerful groups play out a 6 month popularity media contest to see who can rule over the nation. The blur between the parties nothing more than the gentle sway of public opinion and perception as to who should get the job.

Should We Abolish Dáil?

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