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Ancillary Design Certs

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  • 12-06-2019 4:24pm
    #1
    rampantbunny
    Registered Users Posts: 907 ✭✭✭


    Hi all. I started a self-build c.2014/2015 and took my sweet time at it.
    Although we've been living in the house a number of years, I'm only now getting around to getting engineers sign-off.

    There was no such thing as opt-in/out when I built. Today, engineer is asking for ancillary design certs for plumbing, MHRV, geothermal etc.
    I can't recall the term ancillary design being used at time of build, so my question is whether these design certs have always been required, independent of when planning was granted and/or sign off requested.


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    #2
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,219 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    rampantbunny wrote: »
    Hi all. I started a self-build c.2014/2015 and took my sweet time at it.
    Although we've been living in the house a number of years, I'm only now getting around to getting engineers sign-off.

    There was no such thing as opt-in/out when I built. Today, engineer is asking for ancillary design certs for plumbing, MHRV, geothermal etc.
    I can't recall the term ancillary design being used at time of build, so my question is whether these design certs have always been required, independent of when planning was granted and/or sign off requested.

    They've been required since the Building Control Amendment Regulations came in early 2014, so if your project was done under BCAR and entered onto the Building Control Management System (BCMS) before the option to opt-out was available, then yes Ancillary Design Certificates would be required.


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    #3
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    The chances of you getting those from tradesmen are slim, as by the sounds of it, they weren’t contracted to provide..


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    #4
    rampantbunny
    Registered Users Posts: 907 ✭✭✭rampantbunny


    Penn wrote: »
    They've been required since the Building Control Amendment Regulations came in early 2014, so if your project was done under BCAR and entered onto the Building Control Management System (BCMS) before the option to opt-out was available, then yes Ancillary Design Certificates would be required.

    How would I know if done under BCAR?
    What I recall from the time was that regulations changed after I commenced building in 2014, and those changes required opt in/out. Planning permission was actually granted a number of years before that (2010 I think even).

    I think the position I'm in is as BryanF notes in his post re. tradesmen not being contracted to provide these certs. For example, steel schedule (support columns etc.) originally supplied by this engineer, did not stipulate grade of steel required. There was no requirement for CE stamping at the time either. But engineer is requesting steel certification now, which to my mind would require steel fabricator to conjure up.

    I've already asked engineer to clarify if these docs are required or nice to haves, but haven't been able to get an answer on this to-date.


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    #5
    RORY O CONNOR
    Registered Users Posts: 270 ✭✭RORY O CONNOR


    The Building Control (Amendment) Regulations 2014 (SI no 9 of 2014) were signed by the Minister for the Environment on 15 January and came into operation on 1 March 2014 so if you commenced before March 1st and sent the commencent notice in to the council before you started then you do not need the certificates-you should get a certificate of complinace for the planning permission and the building regulations that were in place at the time you commneced. If you started before March 1st then its not in the BCAR system.

    Under the rules a Chartered engineer cannot legally certify structural steel without the CE certs fro the steel and as he is signing off in 2019 he needs the CE certs. In 2019 I would not sign off on steel without a CE cert even if it was put in before March 1st 2014.


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    #6
    rampantbunny
    Registered Users Posts: 907 ✭✭✭rampantbunny


    RORY O CONNOR wrote: »
    The Building Control (Amendment) Regulations 2014 (SI no 9 of 2014) were signed by the Minister for the Environment on 15 January and came into operation on 1 March 2014 so if you commenced before March 1st and sent the commencent notice in to the council before you started then you do not need the certificates-you should get a certificate of complinace for the planning permission and the building regulations that were in place at the time you commneced. If you started before March 1st then its not in the BCAR system. .

    Thanks for the info Rory. OK, my commencement notice is dated before the dates given above so I'm not under BCAR.
    RORY O CONNOR wrote: »
    Under the rules a Chartered engineer cannot legally certify structural steel without the CE certs fro the steel and as he is signing off in 2019 he needs the CE certs. In 2019 I would not sign off on steel without a CE cert even if it was put in before March 1st 2014.

    Just to follow up on this aspect. By under the rules, do you mean under the new BCAR rules?
    Granted that you would not sign off on steel that was installed prior to the requirement for CE marking - but is this a personal preference only?
    How would it have been handled in 2014, if a building was under development, and then this requirement was introduced. Would builders have been expected to retrospectively obtain CE certs ?

    For my own case, the steel schedule supplied by the engineer did not stipulate a grade/specification of steel.
    The fabricator purchased steel when there was no requirement for CE marking, which was installed again when there was no requirement for CE marking. Be it 2019, or a month after the CE requirement was introduced, I'm not sure how a fabricator could be expected to produce a certificate for this.

    Think I'll have to bring this to the engineer for discussion. Again, thanks for the info.


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    #7
    Metric Tensor
    Registered Users Posts: 3,724 ✭✭✭Metric Tensor


    If CE Marking was a requirement for structural steel when you bought yours OP the fabricator was breaking the law by selling it to you without a CE Cert. However in typical Irish fashion (almost) all the steel fabricators waited until after it was a legal requirement before getting accredited to CE mark their steel. Because of this there was a lag time between when CE marking was required for structural steel and when most suppliers started "affixing" it.

    The date you got your steel is important OP. You need to check the invoice and see if it was required at the time. I can't remember off the top of my head but I think it was 2013/2014 that CE Marking of structural steel became mandatory.

    Part D of the building regulations is worth reading and the actual law surrounding the requirements for CE marking too. There is some nuance and may be sufficient room for everyone to manoeuvre if you address certain issues.

    On the Ancillary Cert situation - this far down the road - I'd say you're not likely to get anywhere. However there should be no reason for you not to have commissioning certs and such like and they may be sufficient for your engineer if your development is actually pre-BCAR.


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    #8
    Metric Tensor
    Registered Users Posts: 3,724 ✭✭✭Metric Tensor


    Also to be clear:

    The date for CE marking of steel is in no way linked to SI9 or BCAR.

    Totally different legislation. It's just that the SI 9 legislation made professionals think more about what they were "signing off" on.

    I just looked it up:

    CE Marking of Structural Steel: 1st July 2014

    SI-9: 1st March 2014.


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    #9
    rampantbunny
    Registered Users Posts: 907 ✭✭✭rampantbunny


    Metric Tensor wrote: »
    Also to be clear:

    The date for CE marking of steel is in no way linked to SI9 or BCAR.
    Totally different legislation. It's just that the SI 9 legislation made professionals think more about what they were "signing off" on.

    I just looked it up:
    CE Marking of Structural Steel: 1st July 2014
    SI-9: 1st March 2014.

    Yes, I did think that BCAR vs CE were different things but from Rorys post I noted the initial mention of BCAR and then later the phrase re. steel was 'under the rules' hence confusion.
    Thanks for the dates and info MT. I'm informed enough now to at least have a better conversation with the engineer.

    And thanks to all others that responded.


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    #10
    RORY O CONNOR
    Registered Users Posts: 270 ✭✭RORY O CONNOR


    By rules I meant legally a chartered engineer can't certify the steel without the CE certs.


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