Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all,
Vanilla are planning an update to the site on April 24th (next Wednesday). It is a major PHP8 update which is expected to boost performance across the site. The site will be down from 7pm and it is expected to take about an hour to complete. We appreciate your patience during the update.
Thanks all.

Vatican issues document rejecting idea that people can choose or change gender

1…456810

Comments

  • #212
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    _blaaz wrote:
    Let them away,deosnt affect me how others see emselves....how do it affect you?
    Once they don't ask me to succumb to their charade I suppose it's ok. It's when I am expected to use their preferred pronouns is when I have an issue. But yeah, once it doesn't impact me I suppose it's ok for them to have their flight of fancy


  • #213
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    erica74 wrote: »
    Does anyone actually believe that there is 63 genders - https://apath.org/63-genders/ - or, 71 genders - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/facebook/10930654/Facebooks-71-gender-options-come-to-UK-users.html? I mean actual real people, not some faceless professionally offended twitter users?
    Who knows what number of genders there will be by the end of this year?

    Bl**dy hell, no wonder I can't keep up!

    Furthermore, I probably never will, because I'm too busy living my own life to spend time investigating the identity or sexual definitions that others choose to use.


  • #214
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 9,949 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    erica74 wrote: »
    Does anyone actually believe that there is 63 genders - https://apath.org/63-genders/ - or, 71 genders - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/facebook/10930654/Facebooks-71-gender-options-come-to-UK-users.html? I mean actual real people, not some faceless professionally offended twitter users?
    Who knows what number of genders there will be by the end of this year?

    *Insert Oprah meme*

    You get a gender, and you get a gender....


  • #215
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Once they don't ask me to succumb to their charade I suppose it's ok. It's when I am expected to use their preferred pronouns is when I have an issue. But yeah, once it doesn't impact me I suppose it's ok for them to have their flight of fancy

    This is precisely the point. It also leads into the original post on this thread.

    People aren't simply happy to tolerate the views of others.

    I'm a Christian and part of my worldview is that gender by nature is binary and that men and women are made to complement one another in God's world. That's basically been the understanding that was traditionally accepted in the Western world until recently.

    I've got no issue with people disagreeing and identifying themselves as they choose. That's liberty and freedom.

    Where problems begin is when people wish to force others to agree with their worldview. I don't believe that there are 70 genders. I don't believe that people can truly change their gender. I don't agree that genders are interchangeable namely that a man can fully substitute the place of a mother and vice versa.

    Nobody is defending the liberty of people to disagree with LGBT groups. Tolerance in reality is a two way street. The "tolerance" that is espoused in so-called liberal society is agree with me or else.

    This revisionist understanding of tolerance is what is causing division and tension. The assault of free speech by asserting that there is a vague and nebulous concept of "hate speech" is damaging our societies. The traditional worldview of robustly debating until the best ideas rise to the top has been destroyed. For the new orthodoxy to stand all dissent and disagreement must be shut down. It isn't going to end well.


  • #216
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Did anyone seriously believe the Vatican would state anything other than that there are two genders, and are you predestined by God to be your gender?
    If you did you haven't the faintest idea about the catholic church.


  • Advertisement
  • #217
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    theological wrote: »
    This is precisely the point. It also leads into the original post on this thread.

    People aren't simply happy to tolerate the views of others.

    I'm a Christian and part of my worldview is that gender by nature is binary and that men and women are made to complement one another in God's world. That's basically been the understanding that was traditionally accepted in the Western world until recently.

    I've got no issue with people disagreeing and identifying themselves as they choose. That's liberty and freedom.

    Where problems begin is when people wish to force others to agree with their worldview. I don't believe that there are 70 genders. I don't believe that people can truly change their gender. I don't agree that genders are interchangeable namely that a man can fully substitute the place of a mother and vice versa.

    Nobody is defending the liberty of people to disagree with LGBT groups. Tolerance in reality is a two way street. The "tolerance" that is espoused in so-called liberal society is agree with me or else.

    This revisionist understanding of tolerance is what is causing division and tension. The assault of free speech by asserting that there is a vague and nebulous concept of "hate speech" is damaging our societies. The traditional worldview of robustly debating until the best ideas rise to the top has been destroyed. For the new orthodoxy to stand all dissent and disagreement must be shut down. It isn't going to end well.

    Out of all this religious rubbish, there have been and still are third genders outside the western world. Your worldview is only a binary western view of the world. Your "free speech" damages LGBT people as they don't fit in your perfect view of the world, LGBT people are different and it's that you despise using "free speech" as a cover.

    Christian groups of evangelical and Catholic persuasions have campaigned against same sex marriage/divorce/abortion in this country, their counterparts in the USA are the forefront behind the super anti-woman abortion laws, the ability to fire a person from employment because they are LGBT, deny them healthcare and deny them service in shops. That is very unChristian of so called Christians.


  • #218
    Dante7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,543 ✭✭✭Dante7


    Elemonator wrote: »
    I really doubt that. 2% is backed by academic studies.

    Older research systems seemed to suggest that the rate of intersex was roughly about 0.5% of the population but that research only referred to one intersex trait which was ambiguous genitalia. It can come in various forms however (sex chromosome composition, gonadal structure, hormone levels, and the structure of the internal genital duct systems and external genitalia). 1.7%
    is an estimate given was Anne Fausto Sterling at Brown University who specialises in biology. Another academic puts it at a higher rate again. You can check out the article “How Sexually Dimorphic Are We?” published in the American Journal of Human Biology by Blackless.

    Wrong. The actual rate of genuine Intersex conditions is 0.02%


    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12476264


  • #219
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    Cryptopagan wrote: »
    Can you provide examples of each? And how do you account for jokes that both sexes find equally funny?

    Ever been in a "lads" WhatsApp group? Ever had a peek at a ladies WhatsApp group?

    You'll find your answer there........


  • #220
    the14thwarrior
    Registered Users Posts: 390 ✭✭the14thwarrior


    i don't have to accept what someone else feels they are gender wise.
    Really, i don't have to accept it. I don't have to believe in gender fluidity if i don't want to, and i think the whole thing is bordering on the stupid end of humanity.

    i can tolerate it, but i don't have to agree with it. I do tolerate it.
    most people do, really, they do. We don't really care. We only care if you try to explain away science, biology, and social norms; and then say we should all feel the same way you do. We don't.


  • #221
    Church on Tuesday
    Registered Users Posts: 3,858 ✭✭✭Church on Tuesday


    What the Vatican fails to recognise is that human beings are complex creatures.

    From the dawn of time I can guarantee you people have identified, in secret, differently to whatever was or is considered the 'norm'.

    As long as people are happy and content with their lot, who really cares how they identify? I mean, if God is love then surely God loves unequivocally and without judgement?

    Is it really going to affect your day?

    The Vatican is probably the last organisation that should be preaching a moral high ground in any event with it's, shall we say, very chequered history down through the centuries.


  • Advertisement
  • #222
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Out of all this religious rubbish, there have been and still are third genders outside the western world. Your worldview is only a binary western view of the world. Your "free speech" damages LGBT people as they don't fit in your perfect view of the world, LGBT people are different and it's that you despise using "free speech" as a cover.

    Christian groups of evangelical and Catholic persuasions have campaigned against same sex marriage/divorce/abortion in this country, their counterparts in the USA are the forefront behind the super anti-woman abortion laws, the ability to fire a person from employment because they are LGBT, deny them healthcare and deny them service in shops. That is very unChristian of so called Christians.

    I don't disagree that some cultures have understood there to be third genders and so on. Historically mostly in Asia. I also don't dispute the right of others to have these views. All I have said is that I don't agree with them.

    I'm willing to tolerate views that disagree with my own but I don't have to agree with them. I choose to hold to what God says in His Word from a Christian standpoint instead. I don't dispute the right of others to disagree with this.

    What I don't understand is this. You claim I should tolerate other viewpoints that I already tolerate whilst not tolerating my right to disagree. You insist that I must agree with you. Why? That's actually not tolerance at all. It is intolerance of my right to disagree with you.

    This is why discourse is so screwed up in the West right now. We've descended into a post-modern abyss where everything is subjective and nothing has any real meaning.


  • #223
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    theological wrote: »
    I don't disagree that some cultures have understood there to be third genders and so on. Historically mostly in Asia. I also don't dispute the right of others to have these views. All I have said is that I don't agree with them.

    I'm willing to tolerate views that disagree with my own but I don't have to agree with them. I choose to hold to what God says in His Word from a Christian standpoint instead. I don't dispute the right of others to disagree with this.

    What I don't understand is this. You claim I should tolerate other viewpoints that I already tolerate whilst not tolerating my right to disagree. You insist that I must agree with you. Why? That's actually not tolerance at all. It is intolerance of my right to disagree with you.

    This is why discourse is so screwed up in the West right now. We've descended into a post-modern abyss where everything is subjective and nothing has any real meaning.

    Try being nice to others that don't fit into your strict binary view of the world. Religious views (in our case Christian in the western world) has been damaging to the LGBT community. The Christian community in all its branches has millions of followers who have used the churches intolerance of people who are different to cause them life long suffering, including death(in modern day Brazil for example).
    Here in Ireland, the dominant Christian church's followers don't really murder gays for being against Christian values, they tend to shun them instead and encourage mass voting against same sex marriage.(and divorce/abortion)
    Gay and transgender people didn't choose who they are, they were born that way. Thankfully most every day Christians accept them except a minority fixated to their holy book and yet they ignore other rules on adultery, beards etc from the holy bible.


  • #224
    paleoperson
    Registered Users Posts: 3,522 ✭✭✭paleoperson


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Try being nice to others that don't fit into your strict binary view of the world. Religious views (in our case Christian in the western world) has been damaging to the LGBT community. The Christian community in all its branches has millions of followers who have used the churches intolerance of people who are different to cause them life long suffering, including death(in modern day Brazil for example).
    Here in Ireland, the dominant Christian church's followers don't really murder gays for being against Christian values, they tend to shun them instead and encourage mass voting against same sex marriage.(and divorce/abortion)
    Gay and transgender people didn't choose who they are, they were born that way. Thankfully most every day Christians accept them except a minority fixated to their holy book and yet they ignore other rules on adultery, beards etc from the holy bible.

    Rubbish.

    The subject of this thread is that you and your crowd find it intolerable that other people believe there to be two genders that aren't changeable. Those are harmless beliefs by others that you are refusing to tolerate.

    This is exemplified in the way the mainstream and politically correct tried, with substantial success leading to dismissals etc, to make it some terrible offence to "misgender" someone, ie. call them by the gender they believe they are.

    Do you get it now? The bad guys here aren't those with that belief, they're not the catholic church, nor its followers... the bad guys here are YOU. YOU are the bad guys, the hateful people, the intolerant, the toxic element of society, and have been for quite some time. Now pipe down and allow other people to their beliefs without insulting and degrading them.


  • #225
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    paleoperson wrote: »
    Rubbish.

    The subject of this thread is that you and your crowd find it intolerable that other people believe there to be two genders that aren't changeable. Those are harmless beliefs by others that you are refusing to tolerate.

    Science supercedes your harmful religious belief based on the bible, poor you. Your religion does not rule this country anymore, women are free now able to have the right to divorce and access to abortion as overwhelming endorsed by the vast majority of the population.
    paleoperson wrote: »
    This is exemplified in the way the mainstream and politically correct tried, with substantial success leading to dismissals etc, to make it some terrible offence to "misgender" someone, ie. call them by the gender they believe they are.

    Where, what, when?
    paleoperson wrote: »
    Do you get it now? The bad guys here aren't those with that belief, they're not catholic church, nor its followers... the bad guys here are YOU. YOU are the bad guys, the hateful people, the intolerant, the toxic element of society, and have been for quite some time. Now pipe down and allow other people to their beliefs without insulting and degrading them.

    You don't get it, you religious conservative folk are the intolerant and hateful crowd constantly preaching against the LGBT community and trying to convert those who don't believe in your fairies in the sky. Keep your rosaries away from us sensible folk, thanks. Ireland is a secular republic, get over it.


  • #226
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 9,949 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Science supercedes your harmful religious belief based on the bible, poor you. Your religion does not rule this country anymore, women are free now able to have the right to divorce and access to abortion as overwhelming endorsed by the vast majority of the population.



    Where, what, when?



    You don't get it, you religious conservative folk are the intolerant and hateful crowd constantly preaching against the LGBT community and trying to convert those who don't believe in your fairies in the sky. Keep your rosaries away from us sensible folk, thanks. Ireland is a secular republic, get over it.

    Think science would agree that there are two biological sexs/ genders, notwithstanding those with chromosome disorders.

    The belief in a higher Divine being is just as irrational as believing that there are 72 genders.


  • #227
    paleoperson
    Registered Users Posts: 3,522 ✭✭✭paleoperson


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Science supercedes your harmful religious belief based on the bible, poor you. Your religion does not rule this country anymore, women are free now able to have the right to divorce and access to abortion as overwhelming endorsed by the vast majority of the population.

    I'm an atheist. Science indicates transgender people are full of **** in almost every conceivable sense.
    klaaaz wrote: »
    Where, what, when?

    It seems to be an automatic tos violation on many places online.

    There've been a few news reports of people getting fired and/or awful trouble due to misgendering someone.
    klaaaz wrote: »
    You don't get it, you religious conservative folk are the intolerant and hateful crowd constantly preaching against the LGBT community and trying to convert those who don't believe in your fairies in the sky. Keep your rosaries away from us sensible folk, thanks. Ireland is a secular republic, get over it.

    I'm not though. Like I said, I'm an atheist and have been for a long, long time.

    I feel a bit sorry for you, how little self-esteem and analytic ability you must have to always just get up on your soap box and shout about the catholic church. But it's hard to feel too sorry for someone being so hateful.

    It's the same trick over and over. You don't have to put any thought into it right? You're going to have to learn something new, to assess what's going on better. Not just flogging the same damn horse over and over. Because your statements here have been crud.


  • #228
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    Think science would agree that there are two biological sexs/ genders, notwithstanding those with chromosome disorders.

    What's that got to do with religion and their God?


  • #229
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    klaaaz wrote:
    Science supercedes your harmful religious belief based on the bible, poor you. Your religion does not rule this country anymore, women are free now able to have the right to divorce and access to abortion as overwhelming endorsed by the vast majority of the population.

    Are you saying that science has proved that you can choose whether you are a man or a woman?


  • #230
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    _blaaz wrote: »
    Obviously biology not be changing like

    But i fail to see any harm in if someone wants to identify as x,y or z though??


    Let them off like??deosnt affect me any way,shape or form what people identify as,so long as they not harming anyone innocent,what harm?

    It's when they want rights and to be "equal" to the rest of us that I've the problem


  • #231
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    klaaaz wrote:
    Keep your rosaries away from us sensible folk, thanks.

    Oh that's funny.


  • Advertisement
  • #232
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    paleoperson wrote: »
    I'm an atheist. Science indicates transgender people are full of **** in almost every conceivable sense.

    So much hate for transgender people in your vains, science denier.
    You're not up to date with science. 2,617 of the highest scientists disagree with you https://not-binary.org/statement/
    paleoperson wrote: »
    It seems to be an automatic tos violation on many places online.

    There've been a few news reports of people getting fired and/or awful trouble due to misgendering someone.

    Where and when? Making it up as usual!
    paleoperson wrote: »
    I'm not though. Like I said, I'm an atheist and have been for a long, long time.

    I feel a bit sorry for you, how little self-esteem and analytic ability you must have to always just get up on your soap box and shout about the catholic church. But it's hard to feel too sorry for someone being so hateful.

    It's the same trick over and over. You don't have to put any thought into it right? You're going to have to learn something new, to assess what's going on better. Not just flogging the same damn horse over and over. Because your statements here have been crud.

    Haha, a so called atheist defending the conservative religious right.


  • #233
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 9,949 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    klaaaz wrote: »
    What's that got to do with religion and their God?

    You stated science supersedes "their" God. It also supersedes the beliefs of those who claim the existence of additional genders, despite evidence to the contrary.


  • #234
    paleoperson
    Registered Users Posts: 3,522 ✭✭✭paleoperson


    klaaaz wrote: »
    So much hate for transgender people in your vains, science denier.
    You're not up to date with science. 2,617 of the highest scientists disagree with you https://not-binary.org/statement/

    You wouldn't know what science was if it stood up and bit you. Science is not linking to a .org website called "not-binary.org". Perhaps some scientists agree with the theory but they don't represent most scientists.

    ok I think that's about it for me with my interactions with "klaaaz".


  • #235
    Dante7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,543 ✭✭✭Dante7


    This week the Vatican also issued a statement stating that climate change is a global emergency which requires radical action. I haven't seen any posts by the bearded woke bros criticising them over this declaration.

    Just because they are a religious organisation doesn't automatically mean they are wrong. They are right about climate change and they are also right about this gender nonsense.


  • #236
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    You stated science supersedes "their" God. It also supersedes the beliefs of those who claim the existence of additional genders, despite evidence to the contrary.

    You edited your post to add about 72 genders, I'm not here to defend the amount of genders that are claimed. I'm here to counter ignorance from which most is based on a certain holy book in this country.
    You claimed a few pages ago that transgender people have a mental illness which so wrong that you embarrassed yourself. You yourself defied science on that conclusion.


  • #237
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    paleoperson wrote: »
    You wouldn't know what science was if it stood up and bit you. Science is not linking to a .org website called "not-binary.org". Perhaps some scientists agree with the theory but they don't represent most scientists.

    ok I think that's about it for me with my interactions with "klaaaz".

    Oh my, science has hit you in the face and you are stunned into disbelief, perhaps say a rosary on those beads over your computer monitor.


  • #238
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Dante7 wrote: »
    Just because they are a religious organisation doesn't automatically mean they are wrong. They are right about climate change and they are also right about this gender nonsense.

    Based on what? Alot of countries(Catholic included as well) have passed legislation about gender recognition, unfortunately for you the Catholic church does not rule this country anymore, Ireland is thankfully secular with separation of church and state. That may hurt you but it's a fact that secularism is here to stay.


  • #239
    paleoperson
    Registered Users Posts: 3,522 ✭✭✭paleoperson


    Will you shut up and go away. Nobody wants to converse with you, you have no idea what issues you're talking about and people on your own side wouldn't agree with you on these points.


  • #240
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 9,949 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    klaaaz wrote: »
    You edited your post to add about 72 genders, I'm not here to defend the amount of genders that are claimed. I'm here to counter ignorance from which most is based on a certain holy book in this country.
    You claimed a few pages ago that transgender people have a mental illness which so wrong that you embarrassed yourself. You yourself defied science on that conclusion.

    You mean except for the part where it's recognised as a mental disorder, has been for decades, and is in line with similar dysphoria conditions?

    How embarrassing indeed.


  • Advertisement
  • #241
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    paleoperson wrote: »
    Will you shut up and go away. Nobody wants to converse with you, you have no idea what issues you're talking about and people on your own side wouldn't agree with you on these points.

    Facts like science hurt, sorry :rolleyes:. I certainly do know what issues affect the LGBT community, i have been involved with them for a long time. Brand me as a sinner going to that imaginary hell of you and your fellow followers, that scaremongering doesn't work on the populace anymore.


Advertisement