Shoulder to Shoulder - BT Sport Documentary

Well, having checked, it's not top any longer, but it's in the top ten most secular nations in the world. 

But I'm talking about day-to-day behaviour, values and self-definition, rather than technical constitutional perspectives.

Fair enough - irreligionism I'll accept. 

Dev might not have put bishops in the Seanad, but Ireland has a blasphemy law that harks back only to 2009, so I'd argue that it's got a way to go as well in the secularism stakes. That's before we get to things like the education system. Although I don't really see any need for comparison between the Ireland and the UK here - it's not a competition.

prawnsambo wrote: »

Watched this yesterday for the first time. I was dubious about it tbh, but on the whole it was pretty good. Particularly for the interviews with the likes of Willie-John, David Duckham and Davy Irwin. The bit about The Rose of Tralee being played at the RWC was hilarious.

I watched it last night. Very good show in my opinion. BoD is a much better presenter than I expected him to be. Thought the show struck the right balance in general. Was fascinated by the story of the British army officer playing for Ireland during the troubles. I personally was unaware of that.

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Fair enough - irreligionism I'll accept. 

Dev might not have put bishops in the Seanad, but Ireland has a blasphemy law that harks back only to 2009, so I'd argue that it's got a way to go as well in the secularism stakes. That's before we get to things like the education system. Although I don't really see any need for comparison between the Ireland and the UK here - it's not a competition.

I agree, that's what I meant by not even Dev....

Ireland was a church state in all but name. But sure the Blasphemy law will be gone in three weeks. Ireland is secularising and irrelegionising (definitely not a real word) at an astonishing pace.

The UK isn't really secularising, it's too bedded in its institutions.

But again, I get your point. Nobody really cares that the state religion is Anglicanism, it doesn't have a pernicious effect such as Ireland's unofficial official state religion.

I didn't mean to suggest we're comparing Ireland and the UK. But you were listing things that the UK has in the context of being proud of being both Irish and British. All I'd suggest is that using secularism is increasingly becoming more an Irish thing to be proud of than British. We're certainly leading Europe with secular reforms.

Very true. And it's fantastic to see. But the difference between the Catholic school system (up here in NI, anyway) and the state school system would give me real pause. Not in terms of results, where the top schools are often Catholic grammars, but in terms of inclusivity and cultural diversity.

Yeah, my time spent living in the North really opened my eyes to the schools issue. Whatever about the peace and all of the institutional progress made, there is still massive segregation from childhood up.

There was a brand new Catholic school that opened near me just after I left, I couldn't believe it.

Deleted User wrote: »

Is anyone campaigning to keep the blasphemy law? Haven't heard a peep about it from anywhere so just presumed no one is bothered.

There's a lad on here who seems to want to set up a campaign. John Waters has something going on and Ali Selim has been doing the rounds as well.

But realistically, there's no organised opposition to this repeal. The Iona Institute and the rest of the Catholic right are exhausted and bankrupt from the marriage and abortion referendums.

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

I'm not trying to underestimate the secularisation of the South - it has been extraordinary to see. And something that - personally - I think is wonderful. But I don't feel that increased secularisation very acutely because I'm not Catholic.

This is not a comparison between NI and the South - it's my own feeling of identity. The Catholic Church has always been a known to me, as someone who has had friends and family in both communities, but I have never been a member. I don't feel as proud of Ireland's movements in that direction because the starting point was quite alien and not a part of my identity. Conceptually, intellectually, I think it's fantastic, but in terms of defining myself, it feels like Other People's Business. They're moving much closer to the values I have held for years, so I don't feel pride in the same way.

Well as I said here already, I was born in 1992. I had my political awakening like most people in the mid teens. So maybe 15/16 around when the recessions was kicking off.

I never knew that Ireland. It wasn't my Ireland and it wasn't part of my identity. So you and I are very similar in that respect.

The best way I can describe it is I've always been there from as long as I can remember and it was just a matter of the old farts finally waking up and realising that the 8th amendement was cruel and unusual.

So like you, I don't REALLY feel pride. Mostly because I never knew differently and I'm more ashamed that older people took so long to catch on.

Deleted User wrote: »

Is anyone campaigning to keep the blasphemy law? Haven't heard a peep about it from anywhere so just presumed no one is bothered.

There was a couple of the die hards complaining about "turning our back on the history of our country, and disrespect to the church" and the usual BS, but other than the nutjobs I think everyone's in agreement that it's ridiculous.

dregin wrote: »

John Watters.

Well that's made up my mind for me.

Well, in all honesty, when I did watch it, I found it patchy and clumsy in places...

BOD wasn't bad onscreen, I thought some of the editorial decisions were sloppy, and there's no excuse for that - you'd expect to bring in an experienced producer and or/ exec producer.

Well, that's one. Went on far too long. I get it, he's asportsman, he's got a keen eye for physical skills and effort; I get it, we're being a bit irreverent, talking about how they're thrown. Now make the sequence 30 secs/a minute shorter. If you want to know about peace walls, you could ask a taxi tour driver, or you could speak to someone from either side who literally live in its shadow. He could literally have met someone in their garden, they could have talked about watching him play rugby, and he asks about this bloody great wall behind their house.

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Well, that's one. Went on far too long. I get it, he's asportsman, he's got a keen eye for physical skills and effort; I get it, we're being a bit irreverent, talking about how they're thrown. Now make the sequence 30 secs/a minute shorter. If you want to know about peace walls, you could ask a taxi tour driver, or you could speak to someone from either side who literally live in its shadow. He could literally have met someone in their garden, they could have talked about watching him play rugby, and he asks about this bloody great wall behind their house.

You're hired.


That sounds a lot better tbh.

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

The worst sequences for me were Nigel Carr, Rala and the final one with Bowe.

The Rala one with the flags was just pure fodder for time. I mean, having Rala explain they carry an extra set of flags and why they do, and what order the flags go in.....

Rala must have met literally dozens of Ulster players through the years - why not get an insight from him? Has he seen a change in attitudes? He was sharp enough with BOD when O'Driscoll forgot about the Ulster flag being flown sometimes. Any presenter worth a bean, when that happens, says, "wow - it's obviously important - why? Does it get forgotten about? Does it mean much to the Ulster lads when they line out, to see it beside the other two? Etc etc"

As it was, the same information could have been given with some graphics, a bit of archive and some voiceover. What a waste of having Rala there.