A boat full of carbs

Ole Rodrigo · 31-10-2013 11:33pm

My understanding is nutritional deficiency can lead to sugar cravings - magnesium in particular. Spinach and sunflower seeds are high in magnesium.

ford2600 · 31-10-2013 11:43pm

ror_74 wrote: »

My understanding is nutritional deficiency can lead to sugar cravings - magnesium in particular. Spinach and sunflower seeds are high in magnesium.

I do eat a lot of spinach...

Without making a decision to my intake of veg, especially raw veg, has gone way up.

You have to put something on plate instead of pasta potatoes etc.

For example at lunch yeaterday which had bacon, nuts, chesse and olive for fat/protein also had carrot, spinach, beetroot, tomatoes and a red pepper.

Ole Rodrigo · 01-11-2013 12:13am

Yeah I love spinach . Fresh lemon juice also, its highly alkalizing - good if you've drank too much coffee which happens to me every now and then. Its also refreshing on long cycles. About three large ones squeezed per litre of water.

niceonetom · 01-11-2013 8:34am

ford2600 wrote: »

Eat quite a bit of fruit most days, don't know what category that puts me in...

c) Cheater, maybe.

Left to my own devices I'll eat a frankly stupid about of fruit. I can much through a bag of apples in a day no problem. Throw in a couple of oranges, maybe a banana or two, some sweet peppers and sugar snap peas in a salad and before you know it your back on the insulin train, spiking that system every time you feel bored, peckish or grumpy (which are all the same thing really).

I know that it's all good stuff, and that any diet that makes you feel guilty for eating a Braeburn is ludicrous... but I'm also aware that, if insulin regulation and fat-burning adaptation is the goal it's easy enough to cheat and sabotage yourself without resorting to the pastries.

Anyway, even when I've been quite strict my sugar cravings never really disappear. My guess would be that it's psychological and that any amount of metabolism tweaking won't really rewire my brain to the point where I could be trusted with an unopened box of Quality Street.

ford2600 · 01-11-2013 9:37am

niceonetom wrote: »

c) Cheater, maybe.

You might be right, but my fruit intake is usually at breakfast, with greek yoghurt. I don't eat fruit constantly throughout the day.

Was having a bowl of fruit 2-3 times a day before with granola honey etc.

Paul Kiernan · 01-11-2013 1:00pm

I started a LCHF diet last Tuesday (now in day 4). I did this after reading this thread, pete's now closed thread and ryan's thread on last weekends performance seminar. There's a massive amount of information out there and unfortunately it's often conflicting and confusing!

I haven't cycled since I started. Should I be trying to push myself to promote ketosis? Also I'm struggling to keep my carbs below about 100g per day. Will this also act as a block against ketosis? Should I drop milk, fruit, etc., to get it down to near zero? Finally, I'm getting conflicting values for carb levels in natural foods, anyone know a good source for checking these?

Thanks, Paul

AstraMonti · 01-11-2013 5:16pm

Ideally I think you need to be keeping under 50gr of carbs per day, but it's hard and you 'll need to be measuring what you 're eating, which will make you a miserable soul eventually. Just know the basics and avoid foods like.. pasta, bread, potatoes, rice, corn, fries, sugar, grains, beer, root veggies.

From what I 've read ketosis is something that will happen over time as your body adapts to using fat as a fuel, insulin spikes will affect that, so the less carbs you eat the more easier will be for your body to reach ketosis. If you are that worried of what stage you are, there are some cheap testers in amazon, but not sure how accurate they are.

AstraMonti · 04-11-2013 3:37pm

So the weekend saw me doing a 4h ride in a very slow pace and I was probably the slowest I 've ever been going up sally gap. The guy I was out with, who I am usually faster on the climbs, was taking the piss out of me saying it must have been all the bread he was eating

I just blamed the weather

As for food on saturday I had scrambled eggs with bacon in the morning, fried calamari with salad and feta cheese and some ham/salami with cheese in the evening. Yesterday, the usual stuff, eggs in the morning, burger with salad and then I had a piece of chocolate cake. Angus beef sausages for dinner.

ryan_sherlock · 04-11-2013 5:35pm

AstraMonti wrote: »

So the weekend saw me doing a 4h ride in a very slow pace and I was probably the slowest I 've ever been going up sally gap. The guy I was out with, who I am usually faster on the climbs, was taking the piss out of me saying it must have been all the bread he was eating I just blamed the weather

You go through times like that. For me today, I was on a 110k ride in a full glycogen depleted state. Well, not glycogen refilled via carbs from the previous days ride - kinda sucked (but I was also tired and cutting out coffee for a few days probably didn't help!). I had a bunch of hard 'low' rides like this back in December/January - folks loved riding with me then :P BUT, when it starts to come back together - boom - biggest power increases in the last few years of training (and great recovery).

Paul Kiernan · 04-11-2013 6:16pm

AstraMonti wrote: »

So the weekend saw me doing a 4h ride in a very slow pace and I was probably the slowest I 've ever been going up sally gap.

I did a 2 hour spin Friday that I often do. I was 9% slower than usual at a similiar average heartrate. I was quite surprised, I thought I'd be worse! This was only day 4 of the LCHF diet but I imagine I was pretty much glycogen depleted?

AstraMonti wrote: »

..... and then I had a piece of chocolate cake.

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

ryan_sherlock · 04-11-2013 7:29pm

Paul Kiernan wrote: »

I did a 2 hour spin Friday that I often do. I was 9% slower than usual at a similiar average heartrate. I was quite surprised, I thought I'd be worse! This was only day 4 of the LCHF diet but I imagine I was pretty much glycogen depleted?

Depends what you were doing before hand. Also, the wind conditions at the moment to not make for fast average speeds - get yourself a powermeter, they you'll know (opens can of worms and runs away).

You body can refill glycogen reserves without carbs.

petethedrummer · 04-11-2013 7:38pm

http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/gluconeogenesis.html

Peter Attia discusses some of the difficulties trying to get into keytosis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB7aGnfLB-8

ROK ON · 04-11-2013 8:01pm

Astra

Given that you were craving sweetness, a simple desert that I sometimes have is
Fry some pecans and a banana in butter. Add honey. Eat on it's own or with some natural yoghurt.

I know this is not low carb. However it is a delicious natural desert.
I have made it using someblocal natural honeycomb. Fantastic.

petethedrummer · 04-11-2013 8:11pm

Astra are you trying to go into ketosis? or trying to maintain blood sugar levels? or just trying not to eat sugar at all?

AstraMonti · 04-11-2013 8:23pm

Thanks guys.

Long term goal is to get into ketosis but for now I am just trying to avoid having any sugar cravings, even if I eat food that does not spike the insulin levels I still get them, and especially I get it in the evenings before going to sleep. For the first months that was easy, I didn't need any sugar, you could have left beside me two cakes and I wouldn't touch them. For example, my breakfast was eggs and two beef sausages from yesterday night. I had some nuts and some salami and cheese around 2. Around 4 I had two salmon fillets with mayo along with spinach and green salad. Now if you gave me nutella and a spoon I would kill it.

colm_gti · 04-11-2013 8:44pm

AstraMonti wrote: »

Now if you gave me nutella and a spoon I would kill it.

Do it, get it out of the way, and move on....?

If I get bad cravings I find it easier to just get it over with rather than dwell on it to the point where it's all I can think about...it's usually enough to make me feel ill and not do it again for a while.

AstraMonti · 04-11-2013 8:48pm

Well.. as Tom said earlier it's a slippery slope, it might just be psychological and I need to HTFU away from it. Like yesterday, after lunch we went for coffee, a wild cake appeared in front of me and then dissapeared in 5mins. I don't want to go back to the old habits. One of the main reasons I started this diet is that it kills the cravings, or it did the first while.

AstraMonti · 05-11-2013 4:01pm

Very interesting: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/11/131103140202.htm

And here is the whole article, but you need moneyz to read it.

AstraMonti · 06-11-2013 9:49am

The bolded line is very interesting.

Several more recent studies reignited the interest in fat loading for athletes. Goedecke and colleagues (5) provided a practical option with their observations that an increased fat utilization during submaximal exercise could be achieved in as little as 5 days of training on a high-fat (69% of energy), low-carbohydrate diet. These adaptations were subsequently shown to be consistent and robust, persisting in the face of protocols to increase carbohydrate availability by subsequent restoration of muscle glycogen content with 1 day of rest and
the intake of a high-carbohydrate intake (10 gkg1 day1) (1,3, 4) or the consumption of carbohydrate before and during about of prolonged exercise (3, 4). Such a combination of dietary strategies would seem the perfect competition preparation for an endurance or ultraendurance athlete, simultaneously restoring carbohydrate stores while maximizing the capacity for fat oxidation during submaximal exercise. Interestingly, when carbohydrate loading after dietary fat adaptation is extended beyond 3 days, muscle glycogen stores are supercompensated, and a high-carbohydrate utilization during exercise is achieved (8). Nevertheless, the effect of various “dietary periodization” on exercise performance has remained unclear, with studies reporting benefits (9), no change (1, 3, 4), or impairment
(7, 8) to various endurance and ultraendurance protocols. A variety of explanations has been offered to explain the
apparent lack of transfer between metabolic changes and performance outcomes (2). They include the failure of scientists to
detect small changes in performance that might be worthwhile in real-life sports and the existence of “responders” and “nonresponders”
to fat-adaptation strategies (1, 11). In addition, adaptations to a fat-rich diet have been shown to increase plasma norepinephrine concentrations and heart rate during submaximal exercise (7), possibly leading to increased perceived effort of exercise training (2, 3). The paper by Havemann and colleagues (6) in the present issue of Journal of Applied Physiology adds weight to this possibility.

Paul Kiernan · 06-11-2013 12:12pm

AstraMonti wrote: »

The bolded line is very interesting.

There are a few interesting points here. One is the huge discrepancy in how people respond to the dietary changes in terms of periodization, consumption levels, performance. It seems to vary wildly making it very difficult to know what exactly to follow!

The other is the conclusion that while a 100km TT is unaffected, a sprint/breakaway type performance is impaired. This was always my understanding of LCHF. What isn't mentioned is the effect on, say, an Ironman or a 300km Audax. Do other people have different expectations. Do they expect to race competitively on this diet or is it simply used for winter training and then abandoned come spring? Or can it be supplemented by carb loading and intake come race time?

AstraMonti · 06-11-2013 1:08pm

I don't see this diet as just a diet, more like a way of life from now on. Having read so much stuff lately about nutrition, I am conviced that the food pyramid as currently presented is a huge load of rubbish. If I change something it would be maybe moving more towards the paleo approach, incorporating some more carbs mainly from vegs and fruits.

On the performance side of things, you can create glycogen from multiple sources, fat included when are you past ketosis. It takes longer though to create from fat than from simple carbs.

ford2600 · 06-11-2013 3:30pm

Did you have any luck with doctor doing an Apo blood test?
Went for bloods this morning, was looking forward to robust discussion on ldl, triglycerides etc only for gp to tell me carbohydrates were essential for long cycles, carb loading etc..

Left with both of us thinking the other was nuts

AstraMonti · 06-11-2013 3:33pm

No, haven't yet, I did contact two local gps who said to me that it is a very specific test that they only do if the patient has very high cholesterol (huh?).

petethedrummer · 06-11-2013 4:18pm

Paul Kiernan wrote: »

Do they expect to race competitively on this diet or is it simply used for winter training and then abandoned come spring? Or can it be supplemented by carb loading and intake come race time?

I'll be doing it all the time. But not specifically to get in to ketosis, just to avoid the foods that give me problems. The only refined carbohydrate I will take will be a half water/half lucozade sport mix, during long training sessions and during a race. No carb loading and no recovery carbs. I've raced on it (A4 only) and got round grand but an on going injury prevents me from sprinting for points. I don't need food for A4 races but will review the food situation when I get to A3.

In this podcast Tim Noakes discusses different levels of carb intake and how it has affected athletes he knows. I am definitely suited to the lower end. I would guess that anyone who falls asleep after a big plate of spuds is also suitable.
http://www.enduranceplanet.com/dr-tim-noakes-the-real-deal-on-carbs-for-the-endurance-athlete-hydration-and-learning-to-drink-to-thirst-the-central-governor-theory-and-much-more/

Whether you agree with low carb or not. The notion that there might be a spectrum of intake and particular level of intake suitable for each individual, is a much saner concept than assuming all "athletes" must saturate their systems with carbohydrate at all times in order to perform.

ryan_sherlock · 06-11-2013 5:40pm

The problem with a lot of the studies on fat adaption diets and athletes is that they are way too short term, it takes months (years for high end stuff) for the body to adapt. It took me months until I was riding 5hr rides in the mountains better on LCHF than in a mixed (more carb) state.

One day races, I don't do much different in my diet from normal - stage races are a little more tricky (Kermesses too - tough to get right - racing back to back to back races, which a very explosive, place a huge glycogen deficit, hard to not supplement with post race carbs for that) - carbs are part of my diet, sometimes lots, but it is all much more planned. One thing thing to be careful of when you enter this tasty world. If you are having your high fat meal as usual, but decide to carbo load at the same time - don't. Carbs (high GI) will trigger storage of the fats. If you do decide to carbo load, go back to HCLF for that meal...

petethedrummer · 06-11-2013 6:04pm

There you go, two opinons from the top and the bottom end of the sport!

AstraMonti · 06-11-2013 10:39pm

Breakfast today was bacon, sausages, eggs and cheese. Chicken breast and salad for lunch followed by nuts and berries. Around 5 I had a bag of jerky beef and now I am having a protein shake.

Went to the gym for an hour to be presented with a hard weights session, it had bench press, dead lifts, kettlebell swings, full extension pullups, decline pressups and few others stuff. My arms are quite sore now. Not planning to do anything tomorrow or Friday but I ll go for a longish ride on Saturday.

Tec Diver · 07-11-2013 4:21pm

I started on LCHF in Feb and it took me 4 weeks to adapt. I'm reasonably strict and never had sugar cravings anyway.
I did the Powerscourt AR and Killarney AR with no drops in energy and still felt great after. Also can easily do 60k on the bike before breakfast, with loads of energy and not feel hungry at the end.
Best way to go.

AstraMonti · 10-11-2013 2:53pm

Yesterdays breakfast was an omelete with cheese and ham and off I went for a 60k cycle. When i got home I was starving (had nothing on the bike apart from an espresso) so I had some pork fillet on a nice red wine sauce with some oven baked sweet potato. For dinner I had some aromatic duck with egg noodles so quite a carby day yesterday.

It seems that my food-free cycle lmits at the moment is around 60kms with hills around 80kms on flats. If I had to continue yesterday I would have to eat something for sure.

ford2600 · 11-11-2013 1:36pm

60km isn't a lot without grub.

2hrs or so? 1200-1400 calories or so?

Given you can store 2500 calories or so as glycogen between liver muscles and blood, it's a wonder your hungry so quick.

I found going out hungry on an handy spin helped me adapt. I've done 6hrs with next to none.

Although the more I'm realising there is no one diet or program suits all

A boat full of carbs

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