Suicide and men.

Gillo · 20-06-2013 10:46pm

ted1 wrote: »

I think sucide is the cowards way out, and no thought is giving to the mess it'll leave behind.

There's a hell of a lot of cowards out there so. I've been there and attempted it twice, the first time it was by the grace of god that I didn't succeed, the second time I realised what was happening and went straight to the psych hospital I'd been admitted to after my first attempt. What I can say though, definitely at the time of my first attempt it was the right decision in my frame of mind. Straight after it I felt like an even bigger failure because I could even get suicide right.

TBH, unless you've actually been there, it's very hard to describe what goes through your mind at the time.
There are plenty of resources for people feeling suicidal (or indeed generally down) the problem is they aren't always obvious or easy to find.

Tom_Cruise · 20-06-2013 10:50pm

ted1 wrote: »

I think sucide is the cowards way out, and no thought is giving to the mess it'll leave behind.

Nothing in life is that bad, that you need to end life, there's so many adventurers that have yet to be bad.

Why kill yourself over work , a girl , a debt etc.

Why not just buy a motorbike and back pack your way through Russia, Asia etc

In a few weeks all your problems wil feel a million life times ago.

lol.

The cure for depression is to spend thousands of euros on a motor cycle, drive it to Asia or Russia and just travel to random places.

Why didn't depressed people think of this already?

Call Me Jimmy · 20-06-2013 10:56pm

I think there should also be some focus on the long-term strategy. I am happy to see threads like this and a general raising of awareness and I don't mean to take away from it at all.

But there are issues faced by people who are not 'cured' or who stay in a suicidal state for a very long time. I'm talking about even if they have done the first step long ago of telling family members, going to the GP etc.

Illness like this can be even more trying or straining than cancer in that even with understanding family, it cannot be seen. I hate comparing illnesses but I say cancer as an example of an extreme physical illness that can last years and sometimes be cured etc. Someone who has cancer would rightly be treated with the utmost love and compassion for a very long time. Someone who is depressed / suicidal often is not looked on in the same light. I think even the most understanding of people, after long enough can begin to tire and grow weary and feel that maybe the person just isn't applying themselves.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we are doing the right thing at the moment, but in my opinion the scarier mental space is after someone has tried to tackle the problem and gets to a point of 'what can I do now?'. 'Go to your GP again'.

the_syco · 20-06-2013 11:51pm

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I am aware that females attempt suicide quite often but to my (uniformed) mind that is quiet different to a successful suicide bid, we only hear from those people that have attempted it and failed, of the huge numbers of young men that kill themselves in Ireland have most of them made previous attempts (genuine question btw)

In most cases, not all;
When a female does it, they're often found, and this is seen as a cry for help; alcohol and pills overdose in a room where they'd be found, etc.
When a male does it, they're not always found, and it's mostly very permanent; walk in front of a train, etc.

=-=

I'd liken depression to HIV or aids. You'll probably have it for life, although you can receive treatment and live a good life. Also, if people find out you have it, people who you saw as friends may turn their backs on you as they may be ignorant.

BerryBlue · 21-06-2013 12:08am

Mr.Fred wrote: »

Considering it's a saying endorsed by numerous suicide awareness campaigns feel free to hate away. If it takes a saying like it to make people more aware and ruffles your feathers I could live with that.

As regards my opinion it is purely that as for you attacking my opinion work away I wouldn't have much time for your post either to be honest.

Now did you have anything useful to add to this thread seeing as how you love mental health discussion. I think like most folks out there you're all talk an no trousers when it comes to tackling issues.

Firstly – I’m sorry, I stupidly misread your post – I thought you said that it was the selfish way out, when in fact you said ‘it wasn’t’ – so that’s why I was questioning your opinion – got it wrong! Didn’t mean to be attacking, just throwing my opinion out there.

In regards to the saying ‘a permanent solution to a temporary problem’ – I know it’s used by awareness campaigns and I see it / hear it everywhere when the issue comes up. I’ve been depressed / suicidal and when that saying is just thrown out there so casually trying to simplify a really complex issue – it makes me personally feel like the person who is saying it hasn’t the first clue what they’re talking about. I actually didn’t think anyone would agree with me on it – but a few have thanked it & so I’m not alone in how I feel about it. Serious question – How long is temporary??

And I don’t know what more I can add to the thread that’s more useful than my opinion/ experience – if its not useful, well I’ve not lost much have I. I will definitely challenge opinions I don’t agree with – and I’m always open to learning more on the subject & interested in what other people have to say about it – how else are we going to learn?

Feathers · 21-06-2013 9:24am

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

The truth though that it is often the person that is the outcast, the one that we snigger about behind their back, the guy who never gets asked to go for lunch with the others that is the most affected.
People with depression are not necessarily nice people to be around. They think in a different way than the 'group norm' and often have little in common with others.

I would ask everyone here to look around their office/workplace and think is there anyone being 'left out' or that is considered weird/strange/different. All of us know someone with depression whether we choose to acknowledge the fact or not. And most of us will never attempt to do anything to help.

While this could be true, it could also be the guy who arranged the lunch group, who's the centre of attention & liked by everyone.

Depression is mentally dehabilitating, but that doesn't always mean that if you're suffering from it you won't be able to get out of bed. People can be great at hiding it. Unfortunately so, you could say. If it were easier to spot, I don't think there'd be as much of a stigma.

Sometimes I think that picture of someone with depression leads people to think that if you are in work or with friends that you mustn't be that bad - can lead to both colleagues, and the person themselves, dismiss what they're suffering from as attention seeking, etc.

RoboRat · 21-06-2013 9:36am

Suicide is the inevitable end to undiagnosed depression in the same way as death is the inevitable end to untreated cancer. Depression is an illness, its not just some fad that people go through. Some people can work their way out of depression, some people can talk about it, some people can take medication but believe me, it is an illness. If you bury your head in the sand and hope that it goes away, it wont.

It doesn't always manifest itself as somebody who is negative and down, it can affect you in a multitude of ways such as lethargy, anger, excessive thinking, low sex drive. I personally feel that the reason so many men go untreated is because they think the symptoms are singular and they don't conform to what most people consider to be 'the symptoms'. People need to be educated, I think that the men of modern Ireland are ok with discussing these things, I just don't think they associate certain symptoms for what they are.

Pawwed Rig · 21-06-2013 10:17am

Feathers wrote: »

who's the centre of attention & liked by everyone.

Maybe but I have never seen this situation. I would disagree with you that people are good at hiding it. Usually a few scratches on the surface will uncover a sufferer but I think most people are happy not to go there preferring to ignore it.

Feathers wrote: »

Sometimes I think that picture of someone with depression leads people to think that if you are in work or with friends that you mustn't be that bad - can lead to both colleagues, and the person themselves, dismiss what they're suffering from as attention seeking, etc.

Good point. The attention seeking is particularly important. How often have we described someone as a drama queen or an attention whore. I would say these are classic symptoms of depression whereas most people prefer to dismiss them.

I personally think that depression is much more widespread than is evident by the statistics but being realistic there are very few avenues for men where they can address the issue. Mens health and well being has never been seen as important as a womans.

SpaceTime · 21-06-2013 10:28am

I honestly think it hits men more than women because we don't tend to talk.

I know quite a few guys who I would reckon have a lot of acquaintances and no friends.
I really think guys in particular need to be encouraged to talk about normal stuff.

A lot of guys do but a lot more have monosyllabic conversations or just discuss factual things like sport.

I'm not suggesting that we all need to turn into hippy dippy new age types who discuss our feelings at all times but there's a lot to be said for asking someone how they are and actually meaning it.

Typical conversation here is like :
grunt "how's it going?"
response : grunt "how's it going?"

is not even a genuine question anymore, it's just a vague greeting.

The other thing is that lads discussing anything a bit deep / having choose friends is starting to be described as "bromance" and people are implying it's a bit "gay". I honestly think that's become a barrier to some guys forming very close friendships. Macho, homophobic nonsense that's coming in largely via US pop culture and media. it needs to be challenged. guys should be able to have a best bud without all that baggage.

Guys always had very very close friends all through history. it's a 19th and 20th century development that got all weird about such relationships. we need to grow up and get over puritanical nonsense from that era. They seemed to want to turn men into some kind of emotionless, grey suit wearing, uncommunicative androids. If you've ever noticed it also tended to mostly apply to the working class and lower middle class who were expected to work in mines or be canon fodder in various wars. the upper class never had any issues with being a bit more flamboyant.

Likewise guys can and do form close friendships with women without it being about sex and I think people have to lay off being weird about that too.

and on the gay/bi/confused thing - that hang up is fading but it needs to fade faster! it's still causing enormous stress for men and women, especially if they are growing up in isolated areas.

Also I think the school system plays a role in it. I'm not sure that educating guys separately from girls does anything for those guys' communication skills. Girls tend to bring a bit more open discussion about lots of things to a situation and is something that I always thought lacked in my school.

I went to both mixed and single gender schools and I found the single gender environment really strange.

I just think we need to look at the way we are bringing guys up and need to at opening up communications channels because something isn't working.

Call Me Jimmy · 21-06-2013 2:23pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

The other thing is that lads discussing anything a bit deep / having choose friends is starting to be described as "bromance" and people are implying it's a bit "gay". I honestly think that's become a barrier to some guys forming very close friendships. Macho, homophobic nonsense that's coming in largely via US pop culture and media. it needs to be challenged. guys should be able to have a best bud without all that baggage.

Very good point. People say they are mature or whatever but this is one thing that is still huge. Sometimes it is jest but I find (and I've probably done it myself) it is a slight discomfort or jealousy on the part of people who try to make something into a 'gay' 'bromance' thing.

clairefontaine · 21-06-2013 3:43pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

I honestly think it hits men more than women because we don't tend to talk.

I know quite a few guys who I would reckon have a lot of acquaintances and no friends.
I really think guys in particular need to be encouraged to talk about normal stuff.

A lot of guys do but a lot more have monosyllabic conversations or just discuss factual things like sport.

I'm not suggesting that we all need to turn into hippy dippy new age types who discuss our feelings at all times but there's a lot to be said for asking someone how they are and actually meaning it.

Typical conversation here is like :
grunt "how's it going?"
response : grunt "how's it going?"

is not even a genuine question anymore, it's just a vague greeting.

The other thing is that lads discussing anything a bit deep / having choose friends is starting to be described as "bromance" and people are implying it's a bit "gay". I honestly think that's become a barrier to some guys forming very close friendships. Macho, homophobic nonsense that's coming in largely via US pop culture and media. it needs to be challenged. guys should be able to have a best bud without all that baggage.

Guys always had very very close friends all through history. it's a 19th and 20th century development that got all weird about such relationships. we need to grow up and get over puritanical nonsense from that era. They seemed to want to turn men into some kind of emotionless, grey suit wearing, uncommunicative androids. If you've ever noticed it also tended to mostly apply to the working class and lower middle class who were expected to work in mines or be canon fodder in various wars. the upper class never had any issues with being a bit more flamboyant.

Likewise guys can and do form close friendships with women without it being about sex and I think people have to lay off being weird about that too.

and on the gay/bi/confused thing - that hang up is fading but it needs to fade faster! it's still causing enormous stress for men and women, especially if they are growing up in isolated areas.

Also I think the school system plays a role in it. I'm not sure that educating guys separately from girls does anything for those guys' communication skills. Girls tend to bring a bit more open discussion about lots of things to a situation and is something that I always thought lacked in my school.

I went to both mixed and single gender schools and I found the single gender environment really strange.

I just think we need to look at the way we are bringing guys up and need to at opening up communications channels because something isn't working.

All of this starts so so young with the males. Even as early as infancy. The take it on the chin and don't be a wringer attitude or you sound like a girl. To be seen as wimpy or girls gets you judged and even the mothers are part of the problem because they are pressured not to raise a wimp. So all the negative feelings get invalidated or ignored. Read the work of William Pollack. Absolutely fascinating eye opener.

galway_dude24 · 21-06-2013 11:48pm

Last year I went through the most stressful time at work. Came to the stage that I was not eating or sleeping. Thankfully, one Friday I looked at myself in the mirror at work, went back to my office, cleared my desk and walked out.

I'm luckly I could see a way out. I knew then how it felt to be in a position that I saw no light out of.

RDM_83 again · 22-06-2013 1:04am

April O Neill wrote: »

Yes, I would say severe depression is the biggest factor in someone taking the decision to end their life.

Ok but is there any strong evidence for this though? Suicide is obviously strongly correlated with depression however thats not the same as it being present in the majority of cases (when I refer to depression referring to long term depression).
Depression is a predictor of suicide risk but look at the numbers of depressive cases vs the suicide rate (USA & UK links sorry)

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/147/2/155.short

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1120556/

This second article in particular should be of interest. Particularly in relation to this view

RoboRat wrote: »

Suicide is the inevitable end to undiagnosed depression in the same way as death is the inevitable end to untreated cancer. Depression is an illness, its not just some fad that people go through. Some people can work their way out of depression, some people can talk about it, some people can take medication but believe me, it is an illness. If you bury your head in the sand and hope that it goes away, it wont.

It is widely assumed that early and accurate identification of depressive episodes will reduce suicides. This follows from a belief that suicide is a common adverse outcome in depressive disorders: a 15% lifetime risk is often cited. However, clinical experience and population based studies challenge this view. Every week 10% of the UK population aged 16-65 report significant depressive symptoms, and one in 10 of these admits to suicidal thinking.
But fewer than two people in a million will kill themselves. A typical primary care group of 100000 expects 10 suicides a year.
The following popper user interface control may not be accessible. Tab to the next button to revert the control to an accessible version.
Destroy user interface control1 Depressive disorders are therefore
common, while suicide remains rare.

The estimate of 15% lifetime risk of suicide emerged from a review of 17 studies of depressed patients, mainly in secondary care, all before 1970.A recent meta-analysis revises the figure to 6%,but this may still be biased towards recurrent inpatients at tertiary centres
A study from the United States sharpens the focus, describing 62159 person years' follow up for 35546 insured patients treated for depression.
Risk of suicide declined from 224 per 100000 patient years for inpatients to 64 for outpatients, 43 for those receiving antidepressants in primary care, and 0 for those without drug or secondary treatment. These estimates are much lower and relate to treatment history.

What does this mean for the national service framework strategy? Better quality primary mental health care for all depressed patients can reduce disability and improve functioning, but the result is unlikely to be a visible and cost effective reduction in the rare phenomenon of suicide.

In relation to my point about treatment, it is not that suffers can not be helped, but that we should look at taking more rigorous intervention at those most at risk. I am also not saying depression is not something that should not be tackled for its own sake, but I'm unsure if the link is as strong as what is being argued on this thread.

In relation to the points about segregated education etc being linked to suicide why do we have a rising suicide rate as suicide is destigmatized and integrated education more common (the point about suicides being mis recorded more often in the past is valid however can the rise in figures simply be discounted for that reason?). Perhaps a cultural acceptance of suicide creates increased risk? look at the rates in Japan?

Feathers · 22-06-2013 12:13pm

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Maybe but I have never seen this situation. I would disagree with you that people are good at hiding it. Usually a few scratches on the surface will uncover a sufferer but I think most people are happy not to go there preferring to ignore it.

In fairness, if someone was good at hiding it, you wouldn't know they had depression so you wouldn't know if you had seen this situation.

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Good point. The attention seeking is particularly important. How often have we described someone as a drama queen or an attention whore. I would say these are classic symptoms of depression whereas most people prefer to dismiss them.

I meant something slightly different. I've seen a reaction to people openly seeking help for depression being dismissed as an act of attention-seeking. Basically the talk behind their back was along the lines of 'Oh, she thinks she has depression now :rolleyes:'.

With more famous people saying they suffer from depression and the media discussion around it, there's now the idea forming that some people are saying they have depression to be 'fashionable' somehow. This can be another stigma that someone has to face —wanting to avoid a change in how others perceive you is a big part of not wanting to talk more openly about depression, IMO.

But that attitude could also cause someone to question themselves if they actually have depression — if you're considering seeking help, the idea that you don't even have depression & you're just making a fuss can be strongly appealing to that inner dialogue of self-worthlessness.

RoboRat · 24-06-2013 9:20am

But fewer than two people in a million will kill themselves.

Population of Ireland is 4.576 million. There was 525 suicides in 2011, that's just recorded suicides and doesn't include the likes of single occupant fatal car crashes which many believe a percentage of are suicides. Your stats might be correct, but not in regards to this country.

RDM_83 again · 26-06-2013 7:36pm

RoboRat wrote: »

Population of Ireland is 4.576 million. There was 525 suicides in 2011, that's just recorded suicides and doesn't include the likes of single occupant fatal car crashes which many believe a percentage of are suicides. Your stats might be correct, but not in regards to this country.

Actually they don't even seem right for the UK, maybe I am misreading the statement somehow

because an obvious mistake in the abstract should bounce a paper back from peer review

EvanCornwallis · 27-06-2013 1:28am

Anyone of the opinion that suicide is selfish and a perm solution to temp problem. I pray that mental illness never hits you , because you would be in for a horrible reality check.

People are trying to help and be positive, that's appreciated, but being blunt, you don't have any idea unless you've gone through it.

RoboRat · 27-06-2013 3:06pm

Actually they don't even seem right for the UK, maybe I am misreading the statement somehow because an obvious mistake in the abstract should bounce a paper back from peer review

The article you posted contrdicts itself, it says on one had that:

But fewer than two people in a million will kill themselves

and then the next sentence says:

A typical primary care group of 100000 expects 10 suicides a year.

The latter is about right based on 2011 stats.

27-06-2013 3:09pm

Not 100% sure that contradicts itself at all - what exactly is a "primary care" group?

Blisterman · 27-06-2013 7:13pm

I've known a few people close to me who've suffered from depression, and have always felt at a loss of what I can do to help them beyond recommending they seek medical help, and saying that I'm always there for them if they need to talk. They rarely take me up on the latter, and I'm wary of bringing it up unprompted.

I'm genuinely interested in doing whatever I can to help. Does anyone have any advice on how I can do so?

Frito · 28-06-2013 3:04am

Deleted User wrote: »

what exactly is a "primary care" group?

It's a patient cohort that is being treated within primary care ie GP.

MaxWig · 28-06-2013 8:59am

Blisterman wrote: »

I've known a few people close to me who've suffered from depression, and have always felt at a loss of what I can do to help them beyond recommending they seek medical help, and saying that I'm always there for them if they need to talk. They rarely take me up on the latter, and I'm wary of bringing it up unprompted.

I'm genuinely interested in doing whatever I can to help. Does anyone have any advice on how I can do so?

Not sure you can do much more than that.

There's always helping out at the level of organisation etc.

But on a personal level, sounds like you're doing all that's possible

clairefontaine · 28-06-2013 9:03am

Blisterman wrote: »

I've known a few people close to me who've suffered from depression, and have always felt at a loss of what I can do to help them beyond recommending they seek medical help, and saying that I'm always there for them if they need to talk. They rarely take me up on the latter, and I'm wary of bringing it up unprompted.

I'm genuinely interested in doing whatever I can to help. Does anyone have any advice on how I can do so?

When you spend time with them, tell them how much you enjoyed that time with them.

28-06-2013 9:27am

Frito wrote: »

It's a patient cohort that is being treated within primary care ie GP.

Then I do not see how the two statistics contradict. Can anyone else?

Saying 1 in a million in the general population will kill themselves - but that 10 in 100000 of a specific sub group would - is not a contradiction as far as I can see.

The statistic 1-2 in a million though does appear to be in error - or at least requires context.

That would seem to predict that no more than 10 people would die from this in Ireland per year for example. Clearly the actual numbers are higher than that. Perhaps the stat is 1-2 / million per day? Week? Month? Who knows. On the face of it it certainly appears vague.

Recidivist · 28-06-2013 4:10pm

Just a personal perspective on the "cowards way out"

My younger brother took his own life four and a half years ago. Whilst trying to make sense of his actions and chasing the why of it all, it became apparent he was did not want to become a burden on the rest of the family.

I suspect each suicide and it's motives are as individual as the people involved.

Until you are utterly alone on a bridge in the middle of your darkest night you will not understand.

Easy catchphrases demean the loved ones we've lost and do nothing to help those currently drowning in their private hells.

Pawwed Rig · 28-06-2013 4:16pm

Recidivist wrote: »

Just a personal perspective on the "cowards way out"

I don't think too many people actually believe that tbh. The thread was kind of derailed early on by one posters uninformed opinion. The fact that he has not been on to defend his assertion other to say it was personal experience of an individual case speaks volumes.
Each suicide is an absolute tragedy made worse for those left behind by the lack of understanding of why the person went through with it and also a lack of understanding of any underlying medical condition.

iptba · 28-06-2013 10:45pm

I found this part of the article the OP posted interesting:

Figures provided by the National Office of Suicide Prevention give a clear picture as to the trends in recent years. They show suicide continues to be a particular issue amongst males, and more so in young males. Official figures for the past 30 years (1980-2009) show little change in female suicide rates (fluctuating between around 4 and 5 in every 100,000) while males have increased from 8.4 to 20.0 per 100,000, with a peak of 23.5 in 1998. More recent figures have yet to be confirmed, but indicate this is unchanged.

Blisterman · 29-06-2013 3:33pm

I know a common explanation for why male suicide rates are higher than women's is because men are more likely to be closed off about their feelings, whereas women are more likely to be open and seek help.

But surely if that were the case, then suicide rates would have dropped over the past few decades as men generally have become more open than a generation ago.

Randy Shafter · 29-06-2013 7:39pm

Blisterman wrote: »

But surely if that were the case, then suicide rates would have dropped over the past few decades as men generally have become more open than a generation ago.

While i agree Blisterman that men are starting to become more open, I personally think that there is still a lot of stigma attached to men and talking about depression, mental health aspects of their lives. Some men may feel like their masculinity is taking a hit if they open up about certain issues and therefore bottle them up until it's unfortunately too late.

iptba · 30-06-2013 1:35am

Blisterman wrote: »

I know a common explanation for why male suicide rates are higher than women's is because men are more likely to be closed off about their feelings, whereas women are more likely to be open and seek help.

But surely if that were the case, then suicide rates would have dropped over the past few decades as men generally have become more open than a generation ago.

And similarly, it is a lot easier now to come out as gay than it was in 1980.*

*That's not to say it isn't a factor in some suicides (I have no idea on what percentages of suicide it might be involved in, to be honest).

Suicide and men.

Comments