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Scientology vs Socialism

  • 12-03-2017 8:38am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    I recently watched a documentary about some of the cults operating in Ireland. One of those was Scientology. The documentary pointed out the usual unsavory practices we hear about Scientology. I went to the Scientology website to see if they could persuade me to join after all I heard about them. My conclusion was twofold: a) I decided never to join the Scientologists because it is not necessary to be a Scientologist to share their basic philosophy (and besides, I am a devout Catholic) which brings me to the second point b) Their basic philosophy is a very admirable one. It involves taking responsibility for oneself and going out of ones way to help others.

    No wonder Socialists take a particular dislike to Scientology. Socialism is about banding together for selfish reasons. Taking personal responsibility undermines Socialism.


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Comments



  • Hahahahahaha

    Ah hahaha

    That has to be the most forced nonsensical connection I've ever read here


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,348 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    I recently watched a documentary about some of the cults operating in Ireland. One of those was Scientology. The documentary pointed out the usual unsavory practices we hear about Scientology. I went to the Scientology website to see if they could persuade me to join after all I heard about them. My conclusion was twofold: a) I decided never to join the Scientologists because it is not necessary to be a Scientologist to share their basic philosophy (and besides, I am a devout Catholic) which brings me to the second point b) Their basic philosophy is a very admirable one. It involves taking responsibility for oneself and going out of ones way to help others.

    No wonder Socialists take a particular dislike to Scientology. Socialism is about banding together for selfish reasons. Taking personal responsibility undermines Socialism.

    You're already a member of one cult, why would you want to join another :confused:




  • You're already a member of one cult, why would you want to join another :confused:

    One which completely removes personal responsibility. Any act can be negated by "confession"


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    One which completely removes personal responsibility. Any act can be negated by "confession"
    No it can`t. Personally I do not think confession (via a priest) is necessary as one can ask forgiveness from the victims of our sins and from God directly. Still, the confessional can be a good way to unburden oneself.




  • No it can`t. Personally I do not think confession (via a priest) is necessary as one can ask forgiveness from the victims of our sins and from God directly. Still, the confessional can be a good way to unburden oneself.

    Then you're not a devout Catholic.

    Oh and yes it can, that's exactly what confession is meant for. (or previously buying of indulgences)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 186 ✭✭Tayschren


    No it can`t. Personally I do not think confession (via a priest) is necessary as one can ask forgiveness from the victims of our sins and from God directly. Still, the confessional can be a good way to unburden oneself.

    Why would you want to unburdan yourself? Take responsibility and stop using a mental illness ( belief in jesus) as an excuse to live your life properly


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Then you're not a devout Catholic.

    Oh and yes it can, that's exactly what confession is meant for. (or previously buying of indulgences)
    Funny how non Catholics (especially former Catholics) try to dictate to Catholics what Catholicism should be. If I were marooned on a desert island, I would confess my sins to God directly and I have no doubt the Catholic Church would be fine with that. I seriously doubt the Church will excommunicate me for not being marooned on a desert island when I opt to confess to God directly from civilization.

    I have never been charged a fee to go to confession, it`s free. This idea that confession is a way to become a serial killer and get a free pass to heaven is a bit silly given that you can ask God to forgive you for any sin anywhere without going to confession. The catch is that only true remorse counts.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Tayschren wrote: »
    Why would you want to unburdan yourself? Take responsibility and stop using a mental illness ( belief in jesus) as an excuse to live your life properly
    So people should not unburden themselves? I do not need an excuse to live my life properly. I would need an excuse if I wanted to live my life improperly but of course even a good excuse would not wash with God.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,703 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Op, you have an extremely strange thought process, it's clearly obvious things such as scientology are a scam, effectively a ponzi scheme, whereby, the very high levels gain financially, socially, etc etc. There's nothing admiral about this organisation, it preys on vulnerable people and drains them financially, effectively brainwashing them and isolating them from their loved ones.

    Your posts are also extremely anti socialism, like other methods of governence, it to is flawed, but it's possible better than other methods.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Op, you have an extremely strange thought process, it's clearly obvious things such as scientology are a scam, effectively a ponzi scheme, whereby, the very high levels gain financially, socially, etc etc. There's nothing admiral about this organisation, it preys on vulnerable people and drains them financially, effectively brainwashing them and isolating them from their loved ones.

    Your posts are also extremely anti socialism, like other methods of governence, it to is flawed, but it's possible better than other methods.
    Socialists rise the points you made in the first paragraph whenever they speak of Scientology which is fair enough but the core principle of the Scientology philosophy is a good one to adopt, but of course it is better not to sign up to that organization for the reasons you mention. Taking personal responsibility and going out of ones way to help others is a good thing way to live.

    A trade union is just a cohort of vested interests out for personal gain. Scientologists put the trade union movement to shame.


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  • Funny how non Catholics (especially former Catholics) try to dictate to Catholics what Catholicism should be. If I were marooned on a desert island, I would confess my sins to God directly and I have no doubt the Catholic Church would be fine with that. I seriously doubt the Church will excommunicate me for not being marooned on a desert island when I opt to confess to God directly from civilization.

    I have never been charged a fee to go to confession, it`s free. This idea that confession is a way to become a serial killer and get a free pass to heaven is a bit silly given that you can ask God to forgive you for any sin anywhere without going to confession. The catch is that only true remorse counts.


    The pope dictates what Catholicism should be, not your interpretation


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,703 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Again, very strange interpretation of socialism and scientology, in which I truly disagree with. I truly do believe scientology is actually dangerous for a society and probably should be banned for the reasons I've outlined above.

    You seem to also have a cripe with unions, in one sense I can understand but I'd rather have them, as I believe they were created to give protection to all workers, amongst other things. Unfortunately human behaviour is complicated and these organisations are susceptible to this complex behaviour, leading to things such as corruption etc.

    Of course taking personal responsibility and helping others is good and must be promoted, but as explained earlier, organisations such as scientology is giving the impression of helping, but in fact is exploiting.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    The pope dictates what Catholicism should be, not your interpretation
    There are over a billion Catholics so there are over a billion interpretations of Catholicism. Besides, the first Pope, St Peter was appointed despite all of his faults. Why should anyone expect successive Popes who are appointed by mere Cardinals to be any less human? Indeed, Pope John Paul II demonstrated Papal fallibility by apologizing to Muslims and Jews for the crusades.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Socialists rise the points you made in the first paragraph whenever they speak of Scientology which is fair enough but the core principle of the Scientology philosophy is a good one to adopt, but of course it is better not to sign up to that organization for the reasons you mention. Taking personal responsibility and going out of ones way to help others is a good thing way to live.

    A trade union is just a cohort of vested interests out for personal gain. Scientologists put the trade union movement to shame.
    False dichotomy here - ludicrously false. It's entirely possible to take responsibility for one's own actions and go out of one's way to help others and pursue common interests in solidarity with others. There's no contradiction at all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Of course taking personal responsibility and helping others is good and must be promoted, but as explained earlier, organisations such as scientology is giving the impression of helping, but in fact is exploiting.

    Your initial point is correct but your explanation is not necessary as I already made the point that the organization itself has well publicized flaws.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    False dichotomy here - ludicrously false. It's entirely possible to take responsibility for one's own actions and go out of one's way to help others and pursue common interests in solidarity with others. There's no contradiction at all.
    Sounds like a gang of thugs, looking out for each other.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    It sounds like that to you, realitykeeper. But that may say more about you than it does about trade unionism.




  • There are over a billion Catholics so there are over a billion interpretations of Catholicism. Besides, the first Pope, St Peter was appointed despite all of his faults. Why should anyone expect successive Popes who are appointed by mere Cardinals to be any less human? Indeed, Pope John Paul II demonstrated Papal fallibility by apologizing to Muslims and Jews for the crusades.

    Wow.
    Devoutness is strong in this one (maybe higher Anglican though)


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,348 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Sounds like a gang of thugs, looking out for each other.

    The same could be said for the RCC what with the way they moved pedophile priests around and hid the bodies of dead children.

    I'm a good person, I look after people, I try my best to do the right thing all the time basically all of the things you have espoused here yet I am not a socialist/scientologist/Christian or member of any other such cults/groups, I'm just a person who understands right from wrong.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 417 ✭✭Mancomb Seepgood


    A trade union is just a cohort of vested interests out for personal gain. Scientologists put the trade union movement to shame.

    Freedom of association is a human right.There is no shame in people associating themselves with each other for mutual interests.

    As a Catholic you should know that as far back as 1891 Pope Leo XIII write an encyclical which backed the right of workers to form labour unions,in fact he hoped that more would do so.I'm not sure where you're going with the Scientology stuff,to be honest.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Their basic philosophy is a very admirable one. It involves taking responsibility for oneself and going out of ones way to help others.

    No wonder Socialists take a particular dislike to Scientology. Socialism is about banding together for selfish reasons. Taking personal responsibility undermines Socialism.

    Not sure how deep you've looked into Scientology, Marc Headley's book makes for an entertaining first hand account of how this cult operates. Their basic philosophy seems to be mushroom management, i.e. keep 'em in the dark and feed them bullshít. How they treat the massive lower echelon of their membership seems entirely deplorable. While I'm no huge fan of the Catholic church, I'd advise you to stay put.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    The same could be said for the RCC what with the way they moved pedophile priests around and hid the bodies of dead children.

    I'm a good person, I look after people, I try my best to do the right thing all the time basically all of the things you have espoused here yet I am not a socialist/scientologist/Christian or member of any other such cults/groups, I'm just a person who understands right from wrong.
    I believe the priests and bishops who moved pedophiles on, did so in the belief that the culprit was truly remorseful. Trusting, elderly priests, living simple but saintly lives were easily gulled by those vicious pedophiles. The culprits were never priests because priests don`t do those things. They were psychopaths pure and simple. The lie, is to call them priests.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Freedom of association is a human right.There is no shame in people associating themselves with each other for mutual interests.

    As a Catholic you should know that as far back as 1891 Pope Leo XIII write an encyclical which backed the right of workers to form labour unions,in fact he hoped that more would do so.I'm not sure where you're going with the Scientology stuff,to be honest.
    You are talking about two different issues. On the trade union issue, they were originally intended to be about raising issues with management on how to improve the running of the workplace but as you know they are only interested in helping themselves.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,521 ✭✭✭bobmalooka


    I believe the priests and bishops who moved pedophiles on, did so in the belief that the culprit was truly remorseful. Trusting, elderly priests, living simple but saintly lives were easily gulled by those vicious pedophiles. The culprits were never priests because priests don`t do those things. They were psychopaths pure and simple. The lie, is to call them priests.

    You've officially jumped clean over over the shark


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    You are talking about two different issues. On the trade union issue, they were originally intended to be about raising issues with management on how to improve the running of the workplace but as you know they are only interested in helping themselves.
    Whereas the shareholders who act collectively in forming and capitalising the employer company are entirely altruistic, and not at all interested in their own financial well-being.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    You are talking about two different issues. On the trade union issue, they were originally intended to be about raising issues with management on how to improve the running of the workplace but as you know they are only interested in helping themselves.

    Interesting take on the origin of trade unions. While it is a dramatisation of the actual event of the Matewan Massacre, John Sayle's movie of the same name gives a good insight into those early 'discussions with management' and is a very entertaining piece of cinema too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Whereas the shareholders who act collectively in forming and capitalising the employer company are entirely altruistic, and not at all interested in their own financial well-being.
    Those in business provide something people want so. If every business began to behave like unionized employees, they would form cartels and charge the earth instead of competing to provide better value and better products/services.

    Perhaps that is the solution. Hiring workers based on the scab principle.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Those in business provide something people want so. If every business began to behave like unionized employees, they would form cartels and charge the earth instead of competing to provide better value and better products/services.
    I mentioned shareholders. Shareholders provide something that enterprise needs (capital) just as workers provide something that enterprise needs (labour).

    Shareholders, in forming companies, are doing exactly what workers, in forming unions, do - pooling the capital (instead of their labour) and allowing it to be managed and directed collectively in the hope that this will benefit them all. When you start criticising shareholders and limited companies for doing this, then - and not 'til then - will I and others begin to take seriously your criticisms of workers and trade unions for doing this.

    Until that day, you seem to be advocating one rule for workers and another for capitalists, and however attractive you may find that yourself, you must see that it will have limited appeal for others.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Those in business provide something people want so. If every business began to behave like unionized employees, they would form cartels and charge the earth instead of competing to provide better value and better products/services.

    Perhaps that is the solution. Hiring workers based on the scab principle.

    With globalisation, this is exactly how big business does operate. Wages are too high or unions too strong in one are, move the whole plant to a country with cheaper labour and weaker labour laws. Only cost you €2 to make those shoes in India, but can get €120 in Ireland if you put a little swish logo on the logo and spend a few bob on advertising and sponsorship, go for it!

    What's left of trade unionism in this country is largely in the public sector and semi-state funded and protected by the public purse, and to a lesser extent in the service sector that can't easily change location. Anywhere else, workers tend to get paid what they are worth to their employers in areas where there are skills shortages, or the minimum the employer can get away with in other cases.

    Bad as it is, in Scientology you effectively have indentured labour which is one small step up from slavery.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭BalcombeSt4


    I recently watched a documentary about some of the cults operating in Ireland. One of those was Scientology. The documentary pointed out the usual unsavory practices we hear about Scientology. I went to the Scientology website to see if they could persuade me to join after all I heard about them. My conclusion was twofold: a) I decided never to join the Scientologists because it is not necessary to be a Scientologist to share their basic philosophy (and besides, I am a devout Catholic) which brings me to the second point b) Their basic philosophy is a very admirable one. It involves taking responsibility for oneself and going out of ones way to help others.

    No wonder Socialists take a particular dislike to Scientology. Socialism is about banding together for selfish reasons. Taking personal responsibility undermines Socialism.

    Jesus was a socialist


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