Horses that never filled their potential

Plasandrunt · 25-04-2020 1:09am #1

Following on from the 'Underrated Horses' thread which I think has been a good read. Now I'm not talking about horses that were retired or had to be put down early due to injury. Ruling out the likes of Golden Cygnet, Gloria Victis, Our Conor etc... Obviously flat horses to be included too but I haven't got a clue about any of them

I'll start off with two

Grand Crus- Probably got the closest of any to defeating an in his prime Big Bucks and looked set to be an absolute superstar when when winning the Feltham in 2011. I dunno if getting beat in the RSA took it out of him but he never looked the same after that race.Probably wasn't helped by having David Pipe as a trainer either

Yorkhill- Who'd have thought that after winning the JLT in 2017 he'd win 1 of his next 14 races. Horse is an absolute headbanger but it's really disappointing what happened to him

lemush · 25-04-2020 12:57pm

Tell Massini, think he would've been the real deal over fences. Absolute machine.

Rabbit Redux · 25-04-2020 1:52pm

National Hunt - Barton, such a promising novice hurdler and novice chaser. Looked like a Gold Cup winner in the making but never reached those heights.

On the Flat, Arazi. His Breeders Cup Juvenile victory is one of the most remarkable races I've ever seen. All he had to show for his 3yo campaign was an early Listed win at Saint Cloud and backend Group 2 at Longchamp on Arc weekend - with heavy defeats in the Kentucky Derby and St James's Palace in between.

Both Arazi and Barton had leg problems which undoubtedly curtailed their potential, but Arazi's Breeders Cup performance was a thing of beauty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNZn919v6BU

kksaints · 25-04-2020 2:16pm

Trabolgan won a RSA and a Hennessy off top weight before injuries took their toll. When he came back after a massive absence he was a shadow of his former self.

Imhof Tank · 25-04-2020 3:12pm

Unfulfilled potential is a different concept jumps v flat.

Plenty of brilliant 2yos like Arazi, Storm Bird etc who didn't train on - with the benefit of hindsight were probably just early developers who reached their peak sooner than the rest of their generation.

Over jumps, you'd be talking about novice hurdlers mainly I suppose. Something like that winner of the supreme last year who was fav for the champion hurdle most of this winter. One of Willie's. Can even remember it's name now lol.

moon madness · 25-04-2020 3:30pm

Celtic Swing.
Beat Singspiel by 8 lengths then won Racing Post Trophy by 12
Beat Bahri easily on introduction as a 3yo
2nd in 2000 Guineas, scrambled home to win French Derby
Injured in Irish Derby behind Winged Love who he had beaten in France and retired.
He seemed like a horse who didn't train on but a great CV for 12 months work but had promised even more.

dodzy · 25-04-2020 3:59pm

There was an aerial video of Arazi‘s win (Gotta be the breeders juve race linked) I seen many moons ago. Weaving majestically in and out of the field as it kicked on and won in a canter. Can’t seem to find it. Was epic to watch. Amazing footage. The jockey on board that day - I remember almost feelIng sorry for him at that point as how could anything ever come close for a sheer exhilaration Experience in that field. Simply, simply, lovely.

Anyone care to link the video ? :-)

madmoose · 25-04-2020 5:06pm

More of That after he beat Annie Power in the World Hurdle on his 5th start looked a world beater but was it a lack of confidence over fences that just knocked it out of him?

Coneygree · 25-04-2020 6:05pm

Monsignor the obvious one.

Seeing as you mentioned Yorkhill, I'll throw in Thistlecrack as a horse that achieved a lot but should have done much more. I maintain that he should have won at least one Gold Cup and another King George. Think he'd have come close in the Stayers this year again had he not become crocked again, and that was at nearly aged 12.

mirwillbeback · 25-04-2020 7:14pm

Well Chief could have been a true star and Coolnagorna had a sad end at Aintree, looked a special horse.

meath4sam · 25-04-2020 8:54pm

Horses that done well but I was hopping of more to come.
Flemenstar
Coneygree
Norte pere

Coneygree · 26-04-2020 11:32am

meath4sam wrote: »

Horses that done well but I was hopping of more to come.
Flemenstar
Coneygree
Norte pere

Horse was never the same after that run. He ran them all into the ground that day, including himself.

fryup · 26-04-2020 11:36am

Wasn't their a horse a while back called Turkey & Ham that was touted as a G.C. & G.N. winner and totally flopped?

Coneygree · 26-04-2020 11:59am

fryup wrote: »

Wasn't their a horse a while back called Turkey & Ham that was touted as a G.C. & G.N. winner and totally flopped?

Ah but the day he beat Great Friend with Pat Cadbury in the saddle was legendary.

Nuts102 · 26-04-2020 4:36pm

I think only for injuries Faugheen could have won 3 or 4 champion hurdles although still had a great career

The Tetrarch · 26-04-2020 4:44pm

Hawk Wing was sarcastically described as "the second coming who kept coming second".

2nd to Rock Of Gibraltar in the Railway Stakes. (12/1)
2nd to Rock Of Gibraltar in the English 2000 Guineas. (6/4f)
2nd to High Chaparral in the English Derby. (9/4f)
2nd to Grandera in the Irish Champion Stakes. (8/11f)
2nd to Where Or When in the Queen Elizabeth II Stakes. (2/1f)

Last I heard he was a stallion in Korea.

The Tetrarch · 26-04-2020 4:58pm

"Did not fulfill their potential" and "overhyped" are two sides of the same coin.

Tenby was 4/5 fav in the 1993 English Derby and finished 10th. Before the Derby he won five races from five starts. He ran four more times for 3rd; 8th; 7th; 4th.
Alhaarth was another. He came into the 1996 English 2000 Guineas with five wins, then 2nd beaten a neck. He was odds on in five of the six races.
In the English 2000 Guineas he was 2/1 fav and was 4th of 13. He won a few races afterwards but was not the horse people thought he was.

The Mig · 26-04-2020 6:12pm

Weapons Amnesty

longshotvalue · 27-04-2020 12:54pm

Amazing this tread got this far and no mention of Douvan.

Hard to say there was unfulfilled potential but Vautour was the best ive ever seen around cheltenham and was clearly a stone better there than anywhere. He needed another season or 2 to silence the doubters.

Billgirlylegs · 27-04-2020 12:57pm

Apalachee

Reputed to be better than Nijinsky

JohnnyFlash · 27-04-2020 12:57pm

Always felt Beef or Salmon could have achieved more if he was trained by one of our less ‘colourful’ trainers at the time.

madmoose · 27-04-2020 1:10pm

aidankkk wrote: »

Amazing this tread got this far and no mention of Douvan.

Hard to say there was unfulfilled potential but Vautour was the best ive ever seen around cheltenham and was clearly a stone better there than anywhere. He needed another season or 2 to silence the doubters.

Those two might have not fulfilled their true potential but they had solid spells for a few years unlike others who had flopped a season after looking world beaters.

Douvan since his pelvis break in the QMCC has sadly not been the same, he just needed to get round at 2/9 or whatever he was and did so well to finish where he did after coming out with that injury.

madmoose · 27-04-2020 1:11pm

What about Air Force Blue on the flat?

after the dewhurst i thought we was seeing another freak.

UrbanFret · 27-04-2020 10:42pm

Dick hern trained a horse called bravefoot a few decades back. He was thought to be a superstar, then flopped. Such was they shock that there was investigations and arrests for doping. I think the truth was he just wasn't the horse they thought he was.

Dr. Bre · 27-04-2020 10:46pm

Don poli

tryfix · 28-04-2020 2:16am

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Hawk Wing was sarcastically described as "the second coming who kept coming second".

2nd to Rock Of Gibraltar in the Railway Stakes. (12/1)
2nd to Rock Of Gibraltar in the English 2000 Guineas. (6/4f)
2nd to High Chaparral in the English Derby. (9/4f)
2nd to Grandera in the Irish Champion Stakes. (8/11f)
2nd to Where Or When in the Queen Elizabeth II Stakes. (2/1f)

Last I heard he was a stallion in Korea.

As a stallion he is a big failure, as a racehorse he won G1 races at 2, 3 and 4. Despite being precocious enough to be a Champion 2yo ( UK + Ire) he was able to hit an OR 137 rating as a 5yo putting him within 3lbs of the 140 rated Frankel. If that's failure give me some of that please.

In the USA he would be respected for his 2nd place finishes in top races and lionised for his Lockinge win which was possibly the best 1 mile performance in history. He was officially the best miler since El Gran Senor ( 1984)

Closing to within a neck of Rock Of Gibraltar from the wrong side in the 2,000 Guineas was nothing to be ashamed of. Finishing a 2L 2nd ( 12L ahead of Moon Ballad back in 3rd) to the exceptional Derby winner High Chaparral was nothing to be ashamed of. He then went on to win the G1 Coral Eclipse over a more suitable 10f. Going down to Godolphin's Grandera at Leopardstown was no great shame either as the winner had slaughtered his G1 Prince Of Wales stakes field by 5L at Royal Ascot.

He definitely underperformed by going down by 2L behind Where Or When in the QE II, but he beat Where Or When into 2nd ( beaten 11L) in the G1 Lockinge.

Whatever he was, he certainly was no flop as a racehorse.

byronbay2 · 28-04-2020 2:52am

When I think of horses that never fulfilled their potential, I think of horses that never had the chance, rather than horses that just didn't train on or flattered to deceive. The one that sticks out in my mind is French Holly who, although flat bred (sire Sir Ivor) was a huge (18 hands), beautiful bay who looked absolutely tailor-made for chasing.

Was second only to Istabraq (greatest hurdler of all time!) in 97-98, winning several Grade 1's but it looked like a mere prelude to a stellar chasing career. Won his 1st novice chase by 18L but died on the training ground a few weeks later. I was never so sick to hear that a horse had died! I had felt sorry for him, having to keep taking on Istabraq over hurdles, (likewise Sizing John against Douvan many years later!), and was convinced he would be one of the all-time great chasers. Trained by Ferdy Murphy as well, who was a specialist trainer of chasers.

tryfix · 28-04-2020 5:16am

Henry Cecil's Desert Sun was a typically glorious talking horse. He won his 2yo maiden by 6L. He was a 6/4 fav and all the rave for the 2,000 Guineas on the back of his work on the Newmarket gallops. He was still favourite for the 2,000 until he finished 2nd to Marju in the G3 Craven Stakes at Newmarket. He went on to finish a 10 1/2L 6th at 7/1 in the 2,000. The only race he ever won after that was a class 4 race at Doncaster

Such was the hype that even after such glorious failure he managed to.. Retire to stud at £5,000 IRP and was still standing at £5,000 UKP when he died.

The Tetrarch · 28-04-2020 11:15am

tryfix wrote: »

Whatever he was, he certainly was no flop as a racehorse.

He was if you were backing him. He was beaten five times when favourite in a twelve race career.
His 2yo Group 1 win (7 runners incl two other A P O'Brien runners)
His 3yo Group 1 win (5 runners incl one other A P O'Brien runner)
His 4yo Group 1 win (6 runners)

In his Lockinge win (rated 134) that he won by 11 lengths the comments were "made all, driven clear, .... unchallenged".
His previous best rating was 127 (he ran 121, 125, 127, 126, 123, 119, 95, 134).
I am always cautious about ratings and plaudits in a wide margin win in a small field, more so when the rating is out of line with his previous and subsequent runs.

USA triple crown largest winning margins
1973 Secretariat 31 lengths (Belmont, 5 ran)
1943 Count Fleet 25 lengths (Belmont, 3 ran)
1920 Man O' War 20 lengths (Belmont, 2 ran)

tryfix · 28-04-2020 12:45pm

The Tetrarch wrote: »

He was if you were backing him. He was beaten five times when favourite in a twelve race career.
His 2yo Group 1 win (7 runners incl two other A P O'Brien runners)
His 3yo Group 1 win (5 runners incl one other A P O'Brien runner)
His 4yo Group 1 win (6 runners)

In his Lockinge win (rated 134) that he won by 11 lengths the comments were "made all, driven clear, .... unchallenged".
His previous best rating was 127 (he ran 121, 125, 127, 126, 123, 119, 95, 134).
I am always cautious about ratings and plaudits in a wide margin win in a small field, more so when the rating is out of line with his previous and subsequent runs.

USA triple crown largest winning margins
1973 Secretariat 31 lengths (Belmont, 5 ran)
1943 Count Fleet 25 lengths (Belmont, 3 ran)
1920 Man O' War 20 lengths (Belmont, 2 ran)

That's all true, although his OR was 137. It's not the horse's fault that the bookies made him favourite.

In hindsight he was drawn on the wrong side in the Guineas

In the Derby he wasn't a proper 12f horse and was up against an exceptionally proper 12f horse

He did the business in the Eclipse and was just done in the Irish Champion Stakes by a 5L POW winner who was underestimated because he had flopped after being favourite in the King George.

His defeat by Where Or When wasn't really explicable given his own thrashing of him in previous and future meetings, Where Or When ran above himself against the rest of the field as well. His loss at Arlington came at the end of a long season.

Apart from his tendency to throw in some stinkers at the end of his 3 and 4 year old careers his 2nds to Rock Of Gibraltar, High Chaparral and Grandera were the performances of a proper G1 horse.

At 2 he ran 4 times for 1, 2, 1, 1 including an all age record time in his 7f G1 win at the Curragh

At 3 he ran 6 times in G1 company only for 2, 2, 1, 2, 2, 7. An Eclipse win and 4 G1 seconds in some of the best G1 races on the Calendar aren't the mark of a rogue.

At 4 he ran twice in G1 races for 1, 6. His win was astonishingly good, his loss was abysmal and he retired off OR 137.

On his day he wasn't just good, he was great.

I agree about wide margin wins especially on Soft Ground but Hawk Wing's Newbury win was on good ground. When crabbing the ratings I look for the weakest link. I don't think one exists in his Newbury win ( maybe the fog ?)

Morgans · 28-04-2020 4:48pm

tryfix wrote: »

That's all true, although his OR was 137. It's not the horse's fault that the bookies made him favourite.

In hindsight he was drawn on the wrong side in the Guineas

In the Derby he wasn't a proper 12f horse and was up against an exceptionally proper 12f horse

He did the business in the Eclipse and was just done in the Irish Champion Stakes by a 5L POW winner who was underestimated because he had flopped after being favourite in the King George.

His defeat by Where Or When wasn't really explicable given his own thrashing of him in previous and future meetings, Where Or When ran above himself against the rest of the field as well. His loss at Arlington came at the end of a long season.

Apart from his tendency to throw in some stinkers at the end of his 3 and 4 year old careers his 2nds to Rock Of Gibraltar, High Chaparral and Grandera were the performances of a proper G1 horse.

At 2 he ran 4 times for 1, 2, 1, 1 including an all age record time in his 7f G1 win at the Curragh

At 3 he ran 6 times in G1 company only for 2, 2, 1, 2, 2, 7. An Eclipse win and 4 G1 seconds in some of the best G1 races on the Calendar aren't the mark of a rogue.

At 4 he ran twice in G1 races for 1, 6. His win was astonishingly good, his loss was abysmal and he retired off OR 137.

On his day he wasn't just good, he was great.

I agree about wide margin wins especially on Soft Ground but Hawk Wing's Newbury win was on good ground. When crabbing the ratings I look for the weakest link. I don't think one exists in his Newbury win ( maybe the fog ?)

Hawk Wing is an easy target. O'Brien knew how good he was and it was clear how disgusted Spencer was when he lost the Guineas on him. Won his side of the draw by 8l and wasn't asked to win his race until too late. They knew he was the better horse and it was given a stupid ride - one of the reasons why Spencer didn't last as long as was planned. Without High Chapparal he would have won the Derby over a distance too far by 12l. I don't think he was campaigned well at 3.

This was at a time when Aidan OBriens horses were ripe from May and tailed off towards the end of the year - see Giant's Causeway - something he has changed from since then.

Probably the worst example is the idea that he was the second coming - and then when he produces something on the track that he had been doing at home - in the Lockinge - everyone was keen to knock the rating he achieved beating Group 1 winners by 10l+

Horses that never filled their potential

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