BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

hots · 21-05-2020 2:33pm

Bambi wrote: »

what you're seeing is the dissembling of Public Transport Evangelists.

The rallying cry has been to increase public transport in order to ease congestion, save the enviornment and so forth. Now we have seen a situation where we can do those things AND reduce our need to restructure the city to accomodate endless streams of buses, the real reason for the evangelism comes to the fore: Public transport for its own sake

Strange, strange thing.

You might be the first person I've ever seen who's anti-public transport in general. Strange. Very strange.

MJohnston · 21-05-2020 2:55pm

You'll always find someone who is anti-anything, but until they make some arguments that aren't complete gibberish, they aren't really paying attention to (and attention is usually the only reason they're anti-whatever in the first place).

cgcsb · 21-05-2020 3:00pm

hots wrote: »

You might be the first person I've ever seen who's anti-public transport in general. Strange. Very strange.

You'd be shocked at the amount of people who can't imagine even 3 weeks into the future.

CatInABox · 21-05-2020 6:11pm

The Interim Mobility Intervention Programme for Dublin City is out, and it's pretty grim reading.

If the above very substantial increases in walking and cycling are to be achieved, there must be
a commensurate increase in facilities to accommodate these figures and this is why so much
emphasis is placed on safety for pedestrians and cyclists. However, even if these substantial changes
are achieved we still will have a deficit of over 50,000 people trips across the morning peak.

See here, from Janet Horners website

cgcsb · 21-05-2020 10:00pm

It's bus connects on the cheap only better for pedestrians in parts.

AlmightyCushion · 22-05-2020 12:21am

CatInABox wrote: »

The Interim Mobility Intervention Programme for Dublin City is out, and it's pretty grim reading.

See here, from Janet Horners website

We've been talking about BusConnects for 3 years and had nothing but consultations and this plan they want to implement in the next 6-12 months. Why does it take something like Coronavirus to bring about these improvements in a relatively short timeframe? It's so frustrating.

I know this isn't as expansive a plan as BusConnects but a lot of this could have been done a few years ago as part of BusConnects.

pm1977x · 22-05-2020 12:36am

Plans to remove some bus stops as they can’t facilitate social distancing...surely you’ll just force more people to the other bus stops, thus making them unsafe too?

cgcsb · 22-05-2020 12:21pm

Did anyone see anything about a timeline or when we could see site specific details? Would be great if this was extended city wide and we could basically have busconnects in place and save €2bn on glamour. Add

Next there'll be integrated ticketing implemented on the grounds of reducing interaction between people and touching machines. It's amazing what can actually be done when the focus is on the task rather than the glossy reports.

AlekSmart · 22-05-2020 8:09pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Did anyone see anything about a timeline or when we could see site specific details? Would be great if this was extended city wide and we could basically have busconnects in place and save €2bn on glamour. Add

Next there'll be integrated ticketing implemented on the grounds of reducing interaction between people and touching machines. It's amazing what can actually be done when the focus is on the task rather than the glossy reports.

Like many of these agencies,DCC have never stinted on a good glossy brochure...

Before long the proponents of this 'Plan' will be heading off to symposia and conferences in foregin parts to display to the incredulous forrener's how incredibly amazing and eco-friendly DCC and it's minions are....

Loads of colouredy lines and pop-up's drawn on the same Central Street maps which an 18th Century landlord would be familiar with...

The divil is,as always,in the detail,and blithely inserting stuff like this shows the great-unwashed exactly how fabulous our Council actually is...

5.2. Pedestrian Signal Crossings and Waiting Times

In order to reduce the time that people are waiting for pedestrian crossings to turn green, the maximum amount of time allocated to a complete traffic cycle, (allowing all movements in the junction operate, if demanded) has been reduced from 120 seconds to 80 seconds throughout the city. As the amount of time for the pedestrian green and amber man is based on the time taken to safely cross the road, and therefore remains the same, the additional time has been taken from that allocated to vehicles.

This has resulted in shorter green times at all junctions and an expected reduction in traffic capacity of up to 30%. As traffic volumes increase, following advancement through the different phases of Interim Mobility Intervention Programme for Dublin City,the government roadmap for easing of restrictions, and while the requirement for social distancing remains in place, the cycle length will remain capped at 80 seconds. This will result in major reduction in capacity for motorised vehicles going forward. The impact of this on public transport journey times and reliability will also require careful monitoring.
In addition to reducing the wait times for all junctions, a number of pedestrian crossings in the city centre and key locations in urban villages have been set to automatically operate from 7am-7pm to reduce vehicular speed, to aid pedestrian movement and to minimise contact with signal push buttons.

As the creators of this stuff say...the proposals will require 'careful monitoring'....most likely by themselves,or some entity paid for by DCC themselves.

At this stage,given that the City Centre Multi Story Car Parks will continue to have their access maintained,as far as this Council is concerned,one can only sit back and let them at it.....:o

Cookie_Monster · 23-05-2020 6:37am

5.2. Pedestrian Signal Crossings and Waiting Times

In order to reduce the time that people are waiting for pedestrian crossings to turn green, the maximum amount of time allocated to a complete traffic cycle, (allowing all movements in the junction operate, if demanded) has been reduced from 120 seconds to 80 seconds throughout the city. As the amount of time for the pedestrian green and amber man is based on the time taken to safely cross the road, and therefore remains the same, the additional time has been taken from that allocated to vehicles.

A positive for pedestrians but not really an ideal solution overall.
Why are ped cycles totally separated from vehicle cycles in Ireland? why does ped and vehicle in the same crossing direction not go green together with turning vehicle having to yield. This would dramatically cut overall cycle times while maintaining much higher capacity overall. It works really well over here in NZ, I remember last time I was home being so frustrated at the length of reds for both vehicle and pedestrian in comparison.

Dyr · 23-05-2020 4:29pm

All the NTA's work in corraling pedestrians onto smaller and smaller footpaths will be undone, a black day. What next? Pedestrians no longer expected to maneuver like knights on a chessboard just to cross a road at traffic lights? Footpath space reclaimed from NTA obstructions? Cycle lanes moved onto roads as though bicycles are...dare we say it, Traffic??

Corvid 19 truly is the end of the world.

Peregrine · 02-07-2020 9:38am

The NTA are trying to implement a new green and yellow livery based off the hybrid trials. Should be interesting to see how it goes this time.

PhilOssophy · 02-07-2020 5:08pm

You'd have to wonder if there is a case for not doing any more on Bus Connects until we see what the new norm of wfh, etc does to demand post-Covid.
I wouldn't normally suggest that a project be scrapped, but I think this one does need another look before proceeding. They could be different times in terms of demand and commuting demograph. Hard to know I guess.

Thrashssacre · 02-07-2020 5:19pm

The idea of changing busses at local interchanges is certainly gonna be under alot more attack, i reckon the plan is very much in trouble now.

L1011 · 02-07-2020 5:30pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

You'd have to wonder if there is a case for not doing any more on Bus Connects until we see what the new norm of wfh, etc does to demand post-Covid.
I wouldn't normally suggest that a project be scrapped, but I think this one does need another look before proceeding. They could be different times in terms of demand and commuting demograph. Hard to know I guess.

Our existing bus network is, at its core, a Victorian tram network that doesn't have trams anymore. Its going to need changing anyway and the end result wouldn't be majorly different either.

Run with the plan and make any changes after rather than keep the antique system for another decade while faffing.

cgcsb · 02-07-2020 5:40pm

Peregrine wrote: »

The NTA are trying to implement a new green and yellow livery based off the hybrid trials. Should be interesting to see how it goes this time.

If they make an official announcement on this I'll scream.

Several months/years after selecting the blue livery it seems that they've been pissing about and are now running late on EVERY single project so to fix this...oh we'll look at the livery again and piss around some more.

I actually don't understand Irish people tolerate this sh!tshow at all, they've completely failed multiple times to deliver an integrated public transport system and...oh look have you seen these colour swatches, how about yellow and green.

How about meeting the Q4 2019 deadline for bus network redesign complete with integrated ticketing (11 years after leap about 100 years after it was introduced elsewhere in Europe)? Or how about getting that metro planning app to ABP?

There are many useful things that could be done with our time and money.

cgcsb · 02-07-2020 5:41pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

You'd have to wonder if there is a case for not doing any more on Bus Connects until we see what the new norm of wfh, etc does to demand post-Covid.
I wouldn't normally suggest that a project be scrapped, but I think this one does need another look before proceeding. They could be different times in terms of demand and commuting demograph. Hard to know I guess.

Sure of course, we're only a century behind the developed world in terms of public transport, lets wait n see.

Peregrine · 02-07-2020 6:10pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

You'd have to wonder if there is a case for not doing any more on Bus Connects until we see what the new norm of wfh, etc does to demand post-Covid.
I wouldn't normally suggest that a project be scrapped, but I think this one does need another look before proceeding. They could be different times in terms of demand and commuting demograph. Hard to know I guess.

Earlier in the thread, people were complaining that the infrastructure won't be delivered fast enough.

The infrastructure, when it comes to buses, was needed years ago and is already being delivered too late. If WFH reduces demand a bit, grand, but it'll recover with new jobs over time. The idea that we shouldn't build a project that was needed 15 years ago in 7 years because there will be a drop in demand in the short term is silly.

The cycling part of the infrastructure is needed now more than ever because of COVID travel patterns. It doesn't make sense to carry out works to every major artery into Dublin and then not improve bus priority. The two are interlinked.

Thrashssacre wrote: »

The idea of changing busses at local interchanges is certainly gonna be under alot more attack, i reckon the plan is very much in trouble now.

The vast majority of people won't have to change to make journeys that currently make. They will have to change buses to make new journeys that were otherwise impossible or too inconvenient. Unless you're proposing a bus from everywhere in Dublin to everywhere else in Dublin, there's no other solution to that.

cgcsb wrote: »

If they make an official announcement on this I'll scream.

Several months/years after selecting the blue livery it seems that they've been pissing about and are now running late on EVERY single project so to fix this...oh we'll look at the livery again and piss around some more.

I actually don't understand Irish people tolerate this sh!tshow at all, they've completely failed multiple times to deliver an integrated public transport system and...oh look have you seen these colour swatches, how about yellow and green.

How about meeting the Q4 2019 deadline for bus network redesign complete with integrated ticketing (11 years after leap about 100 years after it was introduced elsewhere in Europe)? Or how about getting that metro planning app to ABP?

There are many useful things that could be done with our time and money.

The engineering team for bus corridors are hardly the ones looking at bus liveries. The new network is finished. The decision of when to implement it has absolutely nothing to do with the design team for the new livery. Nothing. The designers contacted to work on the livery weren't pulled from anywhere else. They weren't building next generation ticketing apps before Hugh Cregan told the entirety of the NTA to stop and work on a new livery. Chill. Seriously.

You mentioned integrated transport system. It's not integrated if different operators have different liveries. They failed in the past but there's an order of 600 buses coming in and there was a lot of positive feedback about the green/yellow livery. It really doesn't hurt to try again. I think that's a good use of my money.

Metro is being worked on by TII engineers and contractors. None of them were harmed in the making of the new livery.

PhilOssophy · 02-07-2020 6:22pm

Peregrine wrote: »

The idea that we shouldn't build a project that was needed 15 years ago in 7 years because there will be a drop in demand in the short term is silly.

You can't really make that prediction though. I appreciate Dublin's bus service is brutal but we shouldn't just plough on when we don't know how demand will change. It might not be as short-term as you make out. Maybe it will, but it'd make no sense to just spend a fortune and potentially get it wrong if the demand changes. The country is basically bankrupt at the moment with significantly reduced income

sharper · 02-07-2020 6:27pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

You can't really make that prediction though. I appreciate Dublin's bus service is brutal but we shouldn't just plough on when we don't know how demand will change.

BusConnects was about reducing journey times and increasing the connectivity of areas without having to go through Dublin City centre. Overall it had little benefit for rush hour commuting and only in some cases increased capacity.

Many areas saw reduced frequency in exchange for either a faster route or better connectivity overall.

The current situation is the perfect time to introduce BusConnects.

Podge_irl · 02-07-2020 7:00pm

Peregrine wrote: »

The vast majority of people won't have to change to make journeys that currently make. They will have to change buses to make new journeys that were otherwise impossible or too inconvenient. Unless you're proposing a bus from everywhere in Dublin to everywhere else in Dublin, there's no other solution to that.

Don't even see the issue with interchanges. Waiting outside at a bus stop is far safer than actually being on the bus at the moment.

AlekSmart · 02-07-2020 7:26pm

sharper wrote: »

BusConnects was about reducing journey times and increasing the connectivity of areas without having to go through Dublin City centre. Overall it had little benefit for rush hour commuting and only in some cases increased capacity.

Many areas saw reduced frequency in exchange for either a faster route or better connectivity overall.

The current situation is the perfect time to introduce BusConnects.

It is looking like full steam is ahead for the first 'Spine' and the first visible element of BusConnects,the 'H' spine.

https://busconnects.ie/media/1798/frequencies-spines-and-orbitals-2.pdf

Whether there will be 'an announcement' is not clear,but there is a significant uptick in activity focused on a Q4 commencement of actual site-work.

Significant changes for sure,and constantly diverging further from Jarret Walker's original,but hey...at some point we HAVE to do something ? :rolleyes:

AlekSmart · 02-07-2020 7:31pm

cgcsb wrote: »

If they make an official announcement on this I'll scream.

Several months/years after selecting the blue livery it seems that they've been pissing about and are now running late on EVERY single project so to fix this...oh we'll look at the livery again and piss around some more.

I actually don't understand Irish people tolerate this sh!tshow at all, they've completely failed multiple times to deliver an integrated public transport system and...oh look have you seen these colour swatches, how about yellow and green.

How about meeting the Q4 2019 deadline for bus network redesign complete with integrated ticketing (11 years after leap about 100 years after it was introduced elsewhere in Europe)? Or how about getting that metro planning app to ABP?

There are many useful things that could be done with our time and money.

Lot of head-scratching and Mmmming & Awwwwing to be heard around Dún Scéine over the past few days ...:D

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50069375472_68d5685db7_c.jpg

Keep the eyes peeled for other subtle colour changes as the Covid-19 signs begin to peel off....:)

Thrashssacre · 02-07-2020 7:32pm

Peregrine wrote: »

Earlier in the thread, people were complaining that the infrastructure won't be delivered fast enough.

The infrastructure, when it comes to buses, was needed years ago and is already being delivered too late. If WFH reduces demand a bit, grand, but it'll recover with new jobs over time. The idea that we shouldn't build a project that was needed 15 years ago in 7 years because there will be a drop in demand in the short term is silly.

The cycling part of the infrastructure is needed now more than ever because of COVID travel patterns. It doesn't make sense to carry out works to every major artery into Dublin and then not improve bus priority. The two are interlinked.

The vast majority of people won't have to change to make journeys that currently make. They will have to change buses to make new journeys that were otherwise impossible or too inconvenient. Unless you're proposing a bus from everywhere in Dublin to everywhere else in Dublin, there's no other solution to that.

The engineering team for bus corridors are hardly the ones looking at bus liveries. The new network is finished. The decision of when to implement it has absolutely nothing to do with the design team for the new livery. Nothing. The designers contacted to work on the livery weren't pulled from anywhere else. They weren't building next generation ticketing apps before Hugh Cregan told the entirety of the NTA to stop and work on a new livery. Chill. Seriously.

You mentioned integrated transport system. It's not integrated if different operators have different liveries. They failed in the past but there's an order of 600 buses coming in and there was a lot of positive feedback about the green/yellow livery. It really doesn't hurt to try again. I think that's a good use of my money.

Metro is being worked on by TII engineers and contractors. None of them were harmed in the making of the new livery.

I understand this i was a big supporter of the plan but those against it now have an easy means to attack it which won't be challenging but will be perpetuated in media cycles here (dublin inquirer possibly excluded)

devnull · 02-07-2020 7:50pm

cgcsb wrote: »

If they make an official announcement on this I'll scream.

Several months/years after selecting the blue livery it seems that they've been pissing about and are now running late on EVERY single project so to fix this...oh we'll look at the livery again and piss around some more.

I'm sure that the NTA would have prefered to not have spent as much time as they have discussing the livery and looking at it again and revising it.

However other people have issues with the current livery and have not been shy about pointing this out. They also want the NTA to present the new green and yellow livery to them to have their say before it's confirmed to decide if it is acceptable or not.

AlekSmart · 02-07-2020 7:56pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

You can't really make that prediction though. I appreciate Dublin's bus service is brutal but we shouldn't just plough on when we don't know how demand will change. It might not be as short-term as you make out. Maybe it will, but it'd make no sense to just spend a fortune and potentially get it wrong if the demand changes. The country is basically bankrupt at the moment with significantly reduced income

We do have a fairly solid indicator of 'demand' as it stands.

Dublin Bus,for example was down to < 40,000 passengers per day at worst during lockdown.

Current daily loadings are c.150,000.

Given the pre Covid-19 daily loading was c.400,000 there is a bit to go yet,however the strong uptick since returning to 50% capacity indicates that we won't have long to wait.

I'm confident that Go-Ahead Ireland and the non-bus operators tell a similar story.

cgcsb · 02-07-2020 10:17pm

Peregrine wrote: »

The engineering team for bus corridors are hardly the ones looking at bus liveries. The new network is finished. The decision of when to implement it has absolutely nothing to do with the design team for the new livery. Nothing. The designers contacted to work on the livery weren't pulled from anywhere else. They weren't building next generation ticketing apps before Hugh Cregan told the entirety of the NTA to stop and work on a new livery. Chill. Seriously.

Nothing to do with what I said at all, they're spending money re-inventing wheels after promising locomotion.

Peregrine wrote: »

You mentioned integrated transport system. It's not integrated if different operators have different liveries.

:pac::pac::pac: nobody cares what colour buses are, they care about paying 3 fares for one journey. We were promised this practice of punishing customers who have to change bus would be near an end when leap came in 11 years ago and guess what we're still getting punished for changing buses (with the SAME bus operator).

cgcsb · 02-07-2020 10:19pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

You can't really make that prediction though. I appreciate Dublin's bus service is brutal but we shouldn't just plough on when we don't know how demand will change. It might not be as short-term as you make out. Maybe it will, but it'd make no sense to just spend a fortune and potentially get it wrong if the demand changes.

The above post is effectively Ireland in the last 100 years, nothing ever happens because of this attitude.

PhilOssophy wrote: »

The country is basically bankrupt at the moment

No, it is not :rolleyes:

LeinsterDub · 02-07-2020 10:20pm

Thrashssacre wrote: »

The idea of changing busses at local interchanges is certainly gonna be under alot more attack, i reckon the plan is very much in trouble now.

Most of the interchange requirement has already been removed

cgcsb · 02-07-2020 10:22pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

It is looking like full steam is ahead for the first 'Spine' and the first visible element of BusConnects,the 'H' spine.

https://busconnects.ie/media/1798/frequencies-spines-and-orbitals-2.pdf

Whether there will be 'an announcement' is not clear,but there is a significant uptick in activity focused on a Q4 commencement of actual site-work.

Significant changes for sure,and constantly diverging further from Jarret Walker's original,but hey...at some point we HAVE to do something ? :rolleyes:

Can I ask why H? I mean I'm glad something is happening but it seems like the least important.

BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

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