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Metal Detecting on Farms

  • 10-01-2020 1:47am
    #1
    barnaman
    Registered Users Posts: 682 ✭✭✭


    https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/its-a-misconception-that-licences-are-always-needed-to-operate-metal-detectors-on-farmland/


    Farmer here. Seem to be more metal detecting going on, 4 national monuments on my farm, and have ran lads. Whats opinion on the above, quote below gives a flavour. Thanks



    "There is a misconception that a licence is required to operate a metal detector in Ireland, but it’s simply not true. A licence is required – and must have been previously applied for and granted by the minister – to be in the vicinity of – or enter – a heritage site. The boundaries are clear and well avoided by a genuine hobbyist."


Comments

  • #2
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    barnaman wrote: »
    https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/its-a-misconception-that-licences-are-always-needed-to-operate-metal-detectors-on-farmland/


    Farmer here. Seem to be more metal detecting going on, 4 national monuments on my farm, and have ran lads. Whats opinion on the above, quote below gives a flavour. Thanks



    "There is a misconception that a licence is required to operate a metal detector in Ireland, but it’s simply not true. A licence is required – and must have been previously applied for and granted by the minister – to be in the vicinity of – or enter – a heritage site. The boundaries are clear and well avoided by a genuine hobbyist."

    This is complete misinformation and is being deliberately spread by the metal detecting lobby.
    The laws on metal detecting are clearly set out on the landing page of this forum.
    In short; a metal detector cannot be used anywhere for the purpose of searching for archaeological objects, and that’s all there is to it.


  • #3
    barnaman
    Registered Users Posts: 682 ✭✭✭barnaman


    Thanks they updated the story

    https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/illegal-to-use-detector-for-objects-of-archaeological-interest/


  • #4
    barnaman
    Registered Users Posts: 682 ✭✭✭barnaman


    https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/national-monuments-service-seeks-to-clarify-metal-detecting-laws/

    Another final and authoritative update. Previous (third) article, since taken down, suggested an archaeological object was pre 1700

    "The National Monuments Service also explained that, with respect to this law, the term ‘archaeological objects’ is very broadly defined, regardless of the object’s age or ‘degree of antiquity’. For example, it is possible, according to the service, for an object dating from as recently as the 20th century to be classed as an ‘archaeological object’.


  • #5
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,052 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    barnaman wrote: »
    https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/national-monuments-service-seeks-to-clarify-metal-detecting-laws/

    Another final and authoritative update. Previous (third) article, since taken down, suggested an archaeological object was pre 1700

    "The National Monuments Service also explained that, with respect to this law, the term ‘archaeological objects’ is very broadly defined, regardless of the object’s age or ‘degree of antiquity’. For example, it is possible, according to the service, for an object dating from as recently as the 20th century to be classed as an ‘archaeological object’.

    Just read your link , thanks.

    Is there any link to where the NMI clarified the legal position with Agriland.
    I would be interested to read that ,
    Thankyou


  • #6
    tromtipp
    Registered Users Posts: 262 ✭✭tromtipp


    Very mealy mouthed wording on the Agriland page Following this, the National Monuments Service contacted AgriLand to clarify what it says is the legal position.


    General implication that the National Monuments Service have no more authority than a bloke they met at the bus stop.


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  • #7
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,052 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    tromtipp wrote: »
    Very mealy mouthed wording on the Agriland page Following this, the National Monuments Service contacted AgriLand to clarify what it says is the legal position.


    General implication that the National Monuments Service have no more authority than a bloke they met at the bus stop.

    I cant find that clarification any where at all, despite my best efforts.
    I think the NMI has to protect the sites and monuments for sure, but I often come across a grey area in relation to licensing.

    Its quite obvious only professional licensed individuals should be on sites with detectors protecting our heritage. But I think its unfair to demonise hobbyists, by saying they are breaking the law by owning a detector.:confused::confused:


  • #8
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    According to the NMS, a rear bumper of a Datsun Sunny is an archaeological object.
    What tosh.


  • #9
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,052 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    According to the NMS, a rear bumper of a Datsun Sunny is an archaeological object.
    What tosh.

    In all fairness, nothing from a datsun sunny would last long enough to be classified as such:D


  • #10
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,194 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    According to the NMS, a rear bumper of a Datsun Sunny is an archaeological object.
    What tosh.
    where did you see that?


  • #11
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,052 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    where did you see that?

    Probably referring to this snippet,
    The National Monuments Service also explained that, with respect to this law, the term ‘archaeological objects’ is very broadly defined, regardless of the object’s age or ‘degree of antiquity’.

    For example, it is possible, according to the service, for an object dating from as recently as the 20th century to be classed as an ‘archaeological object’.


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  • #12
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,052 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    Hey whisky galore,
    A rusty old bumper from a Datsun would hardly give you a signal anyway,:p


  • #13
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,194 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    kadman wrote: »
    Probably referring to this snippet,
    i'd seen that and was wondering was it the passage being referred to, but assumed the poster understood the difference between 'is an archaeological object' and 'is possible ... to be classed as an archaeological object'.


  • #14
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,052 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    i'd seen that and was wondering was it the passage being referred to, but assumed the poster understood the difference between 'is an archaeological object' and 'is possible ... to be classed as an archaeological object'.

    But is that not where the grey area is surely??

    I have seen a lot of info on the legality of having a metal detector, but no where on a government site that says its illegal to own one.

    I know its illegal to use it on various sites and monuments, as it clearly should be illegal.
    But the ambiguity of statements like you may be open to prosecution is not really helpful to anyone that likes to persue this hobby.
    Just as the statement of possibly an archeological object.

    Its a totally grey area which is unfortunate .

    I am still trying to find somewhere that specifically says " They are illegal"
    And I cannot.

    Using them on protected areas knowingly, they should be locked up and the key thrown away. But is there an area of responsible use or not?


  • #15
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,052 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    i'd seen that and was wondering was it the passage being referred to, but assumed the poster understood the difference between 'is an archaeological object' and 'is possible ... to be classed as an archaeological object'.

    Thats an interesting one, can any body know, what is, and what is not.
    Can you?
    I think thats the crux of the issue right there.
    Sort of damned if you do, and damned if you dont scenario


  • #16
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,194 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i wouldn't even begin to pretend i'm an expert - but if it's a case of 'i'm using a metal detector to find a wedding band which was dropped somewhere around here' vs. 'i'm using a metal detector to find anything interesting which is metallic around here', i suspect that's a clear enough distinction on how the law would be interpreted.
    and interpretation would be key; the law cannot be all-encompassing. if you're using one to find something which you specifically know is not an archaeological artefact, i suspect that's considered fair game, but if you're just using it to find metal objects, you have to accept what yuo find may be archaeological and would fall under the remit of the law?


  • #17
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,052 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    I see.
    So by your analogy if you are using a metal detector , and not looking for archaeological objects , then no law has been broken .
    But if you find an archaelogical object , it needs to be notified to NMI or someone, and then you are prosecuted for following the
    NMI guidelines.

    If i am understanding this right, from the guidelines. You are expected to follow them, but will be prosecuted if you do.
    Thats a typical Irish solution to law abiding folks. Its laughable.

    Does this rule not deter valuable items being lost to us if they are not handed in.


  • #18
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,052 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    So its only an archeological object, if someone says it is.

    Personally I see more damage done to marked areas on the NMI maps , by excavations for buildings and outhouses,
    and machinery, and dumping over the last 40 years in my county than any one else.
    And its not checked or regulated by anybody.
    From fish kills to lake dumping.

    And its still the same now, just 40 years later.


  • #19
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,194 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    kadman wrote: »
    So by your analogy
    my analogy comes with a health warning that i don't know what i'm talking about. just surmising.


  • #20
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,052 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    my analogy comes with a health warning that i don't know what i'm talking about. just surmising.

    And there was me thinking " You is the Man" on the subject.

    I remember once digging out a real archaelogical object. That was of immense value and hidden away for years from folks.

    It took me and another 4 hours to unearth this gem in all its beauty.
    It was a 1954 VW Beetle, rusty as fek, but belonged to an aunt, so I had permission, and no metal detector with me at the time. Not that it would have picked up any signal anyway.:P

    So I was Golden.

    But by todays guidelines, I would be in the chokey:D


  • #21
    tromtipp
    Registered Users Posts: 262 ✭✭tromtipp


    It is illegal to use a metal detector (without a license) in Ireland on land or in rivers, lakes, and wetlands, or in inshore waters. The law is unequivocal. All the links you need are in this post: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056950848

    I remember in the 1990s seeing a National Museum list prepared in advance of legal proceedings against a metal detectorist that included decimal (ie, post 1971) coins as well as medieval material. I have no doubt that if a modern metal detectorist was raided and had their loot taken as evidence, any Euro coinage included would be recorded fr the sake of completeness and accuracy.

    It is the acts of searching for buried material, and digging to retrieve it, that are illegal. Everywhere in the state.

    Don't do it.

    No landowner can give you permission to detect on their property any more than they could give you permission to murder someone there, or deal drugs there.

    And read the relevant laws - as linked to above.


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  • #22
    tromtipp
    Registered Users Posts: 262 ✭✭tromtipp


    kadman wrote: »


    I see more damage done to marked areas on the NMI maps , by excavations for buildings and outhouses,
    and machinery, and dumping over the last 40 years in my county than any one else.
    And its not checked or regulated by anybody.


    All regulated through the planning process, by law, enforced both by local authority planning officers and by government department officials. Just because you don't pay any attention to the law doesn't mean it doesn't exist and isn't applied.


  • #23
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,194 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    the link mentions 'it's illegal to use a metal detector to search for archaeological objects' rather than 'it's illegal to use a metal detector, full stop'.
    if that's what the law says, the way it's explained could be changed, perhaps?


  • #24
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,052 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    tromtipp wrote: »
    It is illegal to use a metal detector (without a license) in Ireland on land or in rivers, lakes, and wetlands, or in inshore waters. The law is unequivocal. All the links you need are in this post: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056950848

    I remember in the 1990s seeing a National Museum list prepared in advance of legal proceedings against a metal detectorist that included decimal (ie, post 1971) coins as well as medieval material. I have no doubt that if a modern metal detectorist was raided and had their loot taken as evidence, any Euro coinage included would be recorded fr the sake of completeness and accuracy.

    It is the acts of searching for buried material, and digging to retrieve it, that are illegal. Everywhere in the state.

    Don't do it.

    No landowner can give you permission to detect on their property any more than they could give you permission to murder someone there, or deal drugs there.

    And read the relevant laws - as linked to above.

    Just for the record I dont do it,

    But its curious that you omitted something from the forum charter

    Other than under licence, it is illegal to use a metal detecting device to search for archaeological objects in Ireland, both on land and underwater.

    And I think it should be illegal to search for such objects of importance.:)


  • #25
    tromtipp
    Registered Users Posts: 262 ✭✭tromtipp


    The onus is on the person with the metal detector to prove they are not searching for a 'chattel'. The old chestnut 'lost wedding ring' won't need to be dug out of the ground. Anyone on an engineering project looking for utilities pipes or ducting will have relevant licenses.


  • #26
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,052 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    tromtipp wrote: »
    The onus is on the person with the metal detector to prove they are not searching for a 'chattel'. The old chestnut 'lost wedding ring' won't need to be dug out of the ground. Anyone on an engineering project looking for utilities pipes or ducting will have relevant licenses.

    I reckon my missus would have a different opinion to you on that one:D


  • #27
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    the link mentions 'it's illegal to use a metal detector to search for archaeological objects' rather than 'it's illegal to use a metal detector, full stop'.
    if that's what the law says, the way it's explained could be changed, perhaps?


    You can't search for an item of "archaeological" value, and that definition is so vague it can be almost anything, what can you legally search for?

    "it is advisable not to engage in any general searching for lost or buried objects"
    Only "advice" not outright illegal?

    "It is normal practice to pay rewards to finders of archaeological objects discovered in legitimate circumstances and reported to the National Museum of Ireland"
    Not exactly encouraging a hobbyist without any intention of detecting in or around a national monument to hand up a find.

    The law is vague and loaded with Irishisms.
    Have any hobbyists searching not next nor anywhere near national monuments been charged?


  • #28
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,052 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    tromtipp wrote: »
    The onus is on the person with the metal detector to prove they are not searching for a 'chattel'. The old chestnut 'lost wedding ring' won't need to be dug out of the ground. Anyone on an engineering project looking for utilities pipes or ducting will have relevant licenses.

    Not familiar with that description to be honest:confused:
    so I had to look it up, and never seen it mentioned anywhere related to metal detecting advice either.:confused:
    The definition of chattel refers to all personal property (things you own other than real estate). An example of chattel is your furniture and car. An article of movable personal property. Any tangible property that is moveable or transferable.

    So chattel is stuff I own but not real estate. Why cant I search for things I own??

    Gets more confusing every time.


  • #29
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,052 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    If all items can be considered archaeological objects then it appears this hobby is dead in the water perhaps.??


  • #30
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    "it is advisable not to engage in any general searching for lost or buried objects"
    Only "advice" not outright illegal?
    It is advisable because if you engage in such searches, you run the risk of being prosecuted.
    whisky_galore wrote: »
    "It is normal practice to pay rewards to finders of archaeological objects discovered in legitimate circumstances and reported to the National Museum of Ireland"
    Not exactly encouraging a hobbyist without any intention of detecting in or around a national monument to hand up a find.
    Detecting anywhere without a license is illegal.
    It is not confined to proximity to a national monument.
    whisky_galore wrote: »
    The law is vague and loaded with Irishisms.
    Have any hobbyists searching not next nor anywhere near national monuments been charged?
    The laws are extremely clear and straightforward.
    The advice leaflet was issued to make the legislation even easier to understand.
    Lobbyists in favour of unlicensed metal detecting have engaged in a deliberate campaign that promotes misleading, untrue, and harmful information in order to muddy the water and make the laws less easy to understand.


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  • #31
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    The laws on metal detecting in Ireland are clear and unequivocal.

    There is ample reading material on the landing page of this forum and anyone considering the use or purchase of a metal detecting device is advised to familiarise themselves with the law.

    It should also be noted that it is against the law to promote the sale or use of metal detecting devices.

    This has significant implications for the legal position of Boards.ie

    Thread closed.


This discussion has been closed.
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