M20 Limerick to Cork

jaxxx · 22-11-2015 6:32pm

phog wrote: »

Driving home from Cork yesterday, thinking that it was off peak I decided to try Buttevant again, it was a huge mistake. I passed Newtwopothouse ar 17:07. I was still queuing at the traffic lights in Buttevant 30 mins later. It took 40 mins in total to drive between my usual entry & exit diversion points on the N20. The diversion usually takes no more than 18mins

Main road for the entire west of Ireland to get down to Cork people. And people wonder why Limerick/Galway/et.al are so under developed.

"Welcome, to the Republic of Dublin" - really should have that at all airports so as not to be lying to tourists.

cgcsb · 22-11-2015 7:26pm

jaxxx wrote: »

Main road for the entire west of Ireland to get down to Cork people. And people wonder why Limerick/Galway/et.al are so under developed.

"Welcome, to the Republic of Dublin" - really should have that at all airports so as not to be lying to tourists.

Or perhaps just this image to reflect your attitude.

Mc Love · 23-11-2015 12:23am

Why is there a crisp on your shoulder

jaxxx · 23-11-2015 12:40am

cgcsb wrote: »

Or perhaps just this image to reflect your attitude.

And what attitude have I expressed, please do tell?

yop · 23-11-2015 9:21am

**MOD NOTE: Keep it on thread lads thanks **

Comhrá · 23-11-2015 10:40am

Why is there a crisp on your shoulder

It's.....ahem....a chip, I believe.

cgcsb · 23-11-2015 12:42pm

jaxxx wrote: »

And what attitude have I expressed, please do tell?

A chip on your shoulder of course.

zulutango · 24-11-2015 12:42pm

cgcsb wrote: »

A chip on your shoulder of course.

I honestly don't think it's fair to say that those who decry the all-roads-lead-to-Dublin policy of successive governments have a chip on their shoulder. I think the policy is there but it's a result of ignorance and ineptitude as much as malice. If we want the country to prosper, including Dublin, and if we want it to move beyond seeing itself as a rain-sodden rock on the periphery of Europe with perennial stagnant growth (in the longer term) then we need sensible, balanced economic and spatial planning and the motorway between Cork and Limerick would be very important in that regard.

cgcsb · 24-11-2015 1:35pm

But of course infrastructural spending has been anything but Dublin-Centric, quite the opposite in fact. A poster referenced Tourists arriving in Shannon to see signs welcoming them to 'The Republic of Dublin' That's a scream because tourists arriving in Dublin Airport will encounter Europe's only major airport with no rail access. The notion that Dublin receives a greater share of infrastructural spend than is fair and proportional is utter nonsense and this needs to be dispelled with facts, see the recent capital spending program. Dublin will receive almost no investment in transport in the next 6 years.

I'm supportive of the M20, but blaming it not being built on Dublin-Centric policy is nonsense, there is no such policy, the opposite to that policy is being implemented. The village of New Ross is being bypassed with a motorway at a cost of hundreds of millions. The question is why is so much money being invested in motorways in Wexford and only a fraction of that money will go to tackling growing congestion in the capital, and Cork and Limerick are left with an inadequate road connection for the foreseeable future.

zulutango · 24-11-2015 2:08pm

cgcsb wrote: »

But of course infrastructural spending has been anything but Dublin-Centric, quite the opposite in fact. A poster referenced Tourists arriving in Shannon to see signs welcoming them to 'The Republic of Dublin' That's a scream because tourists arriving in Dublin Airport will encounter Europe's only major airport with no rail access. The notion that Dublin receives a greater share of infrastructural spend than is fair and proportional is utter nonsense and this needs to be dispelled with facts, see the recent capital spending program. Dublin will receive almost no investment in transport in the next 6 years.

I'm supportive of the M20, but blaming it not being built on Dublin-Centric policy is nonsense, there is no such policy, the opposite to that policy is being implemented. The village of New Ross is being bypassed with a motorway at a cost of hundreds of millions. The question is why is so much money being invested in motorways in Wexford and only a fraction of that money will go to tackling growing congestion in the capital, and Cork and Limerick are left with an inadequate road connection for the foreseeable future.

You're right, it's wrong to call it a policy seeing as it's probably mostly an unconscious thing on the part of decision makers who just don't have much of a vision for what the country could be. And there's as many vested interests in Cork, Limerick and Galway who wish to retain the status quo too.

But I think we're getting our wires crossed when we say 'Dublin centric'. I would say that just because infrastructure is planned for outside the Pale doesn't necessarily mean that it's not Dublin-centric, i.e. building a motorway from the west to Dublin is Dublin centric, but the motorway isn't in Dublin. To my mind, Dublin-centric means making decisions that see Dublin as Ireland's only big city and everywhere else as a regional backwater that serve Dublin. Policy decisions could be taken that would lead to a radical demographic shift in this country, such that the economic development is't so lopsided, and one that would benefit people in Dublin as much as anywhere else.

I do take your point that many people do see the whole thing in a very parochial way though, i.e. the poster that you referenced.

Mr.H · 25-11-2015 5:10am

Wanted to get a bus from the city center to Childers road on Sunday. Bus I was aiming for was the 12.15 from the city. 12.45 the bus finally arrived and I was almost late because of it.

But yea getting a rail link from Dublin airport to the city is way more important than sorting out these basic of tasks.

I like others do have a gripe that funding and growth is considered a priority in Dublin before the rest of the country. We have a top class transport system in Dublin right now (apart from a connection to the airport which is in the works) but the rest of the country doesnt even have a regular bus service.

Its like we have one top European city and a couple of large towns. Im actually surprised they didnt push harder for the European capital of culture in Dublin to be honest.

An M20 would be of huge benefit and save up to an hour and a half to 2 hours presently between limerick and cork (taking Buttevant into consideration which has been an issue for about 3 years now)

zulutango · 25-11-2015 11:58am

Mr.H wrote: »

I like others do have a gripe that funding and growth is considered a priority in Dublin before the rest of the country. We have a top class transport system in Dublin right now (apart from a connection to the airport which is in the works) but the rest of the country doesnt even have a regular bus service.

That's not really true, to be fair. By European standards Dublin's public transport system is utter ****e. There's plenty of reasons for that.

I really don't think we should be arguing against Dublin getting the funding that it needs. The fact of the matter is that the various projects in Dublin are necessary (at least some of them) and the M20 is also necessary.

There's varying opinions on just how beneficial any of these projects might be, but I'd argue that the M20 is of very strategic national importance, and while Dubliners will never really get that because it's not in their back yard, it could be as good for them as it is for any of us in Limerick and Cork.

cgcsb · 25-11-2015 12:25pm

Mr.H wrote: »

Wanted to get a bus from the city center to Childers road on Sunday. Bus I was aiming for was the 12.15 from the city. 12.45 the bus finally arrived and I was almost late because of it.

Try waiting for the number 4 (a high demand Dublin Bus route) In Phibsboro for an hour because there is a match on, these things happen in Dublin also.

Mr.H wrote: »

I like others do have a gripe that funding and growth is considered a priority in Dublin before the rest of the country.

But as we've established it's not, Dublin got hardly anything in terms of transport in the recent capital expenditure plan, it certainly didn't receive 40% of the funds, to match the GDA's 40% of the State's population.

We got an €8m re-opening of 140 year old rail tunnel and a DART extension to Balbriggan (circa €10m) That's it.

Mr.H wrote: »

We have a top class transport system in Dublin right now

I'm sorry but that is very far from the truth. Dublin's public transport scores worse than any other City of it's size in Europe in terms of connectivity, capacity, frequency and reliability.

Mr.H wrote: »

Its like we have one top European city and a couple of large towns.

It sounds like you're describing the Netherlands, Denmark, Austria and various other similarly sized west European states.

Mr.H wrote: »

An M20 would be of huge benefit and save up to an hour and a half to 2 hours presently between limerick and cork (taking Buttevant into consideration which has been an issue for about 3 years now)

Google puts the journey between Cork and Limerick at 1 hour and 39 minutes by car or 1 hour 29 minutes by train. How is there scope for a 2 hour time saving?

phog · 25-11-2015 12:49pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Google puts the journey between Cork and Limerick at 1 hour and 39 minutes by car or 1 hour 29 minutes by train. How is there scope for a 2 hour time saving?

Edit - only saw the piece about trains later.

That might be achievable in the early hours of the morning with no traffic and no road works in Buttevant or the far side of Mallow.

Regardless of money being spent on other road or transport projects it's crazy that the N20 hasn't been upgraded to a motorway. This a a road between the 2nd and 3rd biggest cities in Ireland. It would also link the west of Ireland to the south.

zulutango · 25-11-2015 1:06pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Google puts the journey between Cork and Limerick at 1 hour and 39 minutes by car or 1 hour 29 minutes by train. How is there scope for a 2 hour time saving?

You might want to check out the frequency of those trains.

Also, trains are great for getting from one point to another (at specific times) but not so great at serving wider dispersed populations. Rail is a long, long way from being an alternative to a road link between the two cities.

cgcsb · 25-11-2015 1:20pm

zulutango wrote: »

You might want to check out the frequency of those trains.

There's a train every hour, making it the third most frequent intercity rail route on the island of Ireland after Dublin-Limerick and Dublin-Cork respectively.

zulutango wrote: »

Also, trains are great for getting from one point to another (at specific times) but not so great at serving wider dispersed populations. Rail is a long, long way from being an alternative to a road link between the two cities.

The thrust of transport policy is towards more public transport and less cars and both Cork and Limerick now have the leap card making onward connections very easy. So improving journey times between Cork and Limerick by train plus smaller road improvements for the N20 along the more dangerous sections could well be an alternative.

If you could have a 1 hour 20 minute train between Cork and Limerick every hour and have your leap handy for connections at either end you'd probably reduce traffic on the N20 considerably for a very small investment, after all the bones of such a service already exist. A few single carriageway bypasses on the N20 would keep the trucks moving too.

By the way I'm not arguing against building the M20, I am convinced it's very much needed I'm just saying that other measures can improve the situation in the short term and indeed the train service should receive investment regardless of what happens to the M20.

Cookiemunster · 25-11-2015 2:44pm

cgcsb wrote: »

There's a train every hour, making it the third most frequent intercity rail route on the island of Ireland after Dublin-Limerick and Dublin-Cork respectively.

The thrust of transport policy is towards more public transport and less cars and both Cork and Limerick now have the leap card making onward connections very easy. So improving journey times between Cork and Limerick by train plus smaller road improvements for the N20 along the more dangerous sections could well be an alternative.

If you could have a 1 hour 20 minute train between Cork and Limerick every hour and have your leap handy for connections at either end you'd probably reduce traffic on the N20 considerably for a very small investment, after all the bones of such a service already exist. A few single carriageway bypasses on the N20 would keep the trucks moving too.

By the way I'm not arguing against building the M20, I am convinced it's very much needed I'm just saying that other measures can improve the situation in the short term and indeed the train service should receive investment regardless of what happens to the M20.

I've said this to you before, but 1hr 20 min by train between two cities 100Km apart is a disgrace. It only takes 2 hours to travel between Limerick and Dublin. In fact there isn't even a proper rail line between Limerick and Cork. There's a spur off the Dublin Cork line at Limerick Junction that brings you into Limerick. There are no stops on the Cork Dublin line in limerick. It's useless to anyone who isn't from the city.

cgcsb · 25-11-2015 3:35pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I've said this to you before, but 1hr 20 min by train between two cities 100Km apart is a disgrace. It only takes 2 hours to travel between Limerick and Dublin.

It's an improvement is it not?
The Cork-Limerick Junction track will be renovated over the coming months to accommodate higher speeds between Dublin and Cork which of course has the same benefits for Cork-Limerick.

Cookiemunster · 25-11-2015 3:44pm

cgcsb wrote: »

It's an improvement is it not?
The Cork-Limerick Junction track will be renovated over the coming months to accommodate higher speeds between Dublin and Cork which of course has the same benefits for Cork-Limerick.

An improvement? There is no direct train between Cork and Limerick. You have to change at Limerick Junction. What good is a faster line between between Cork and Dublin when you're still sitting at Limerick Junction for between 15 and 25 minutes?

cgcsb · 25-11-2015 3:57pm

Nothing wrong with changing train, a direct services could be introduced taking just over an hour the required track is in place, I would suggest Irish Rail trial such a service, it could be a real bread winner if reports of how bad the N20 are, are accurate.

If Irish Rail have learned anything about their business over the last few years it's that routes where they offer journey times faster than road i.e. Dublin-Cork,Tralee,Westport,Limerick and sometimes Galway are hugely popular and profitable where as routes that remain slow are deeply unpopular and loss making i.e. Dublin-Rosslare, Belfast, Sligo and Limerick-Galway.

Alas that's nothing to do with the M20

zulutango · 25-11-2015 4:06pm

cgscb, a motorway between the two cities could radically alter the population dispersal on this island. It could lead to a counter balancing of the lopsided economic growth we've had in Ireland for the last century. It could give Cork and Limerick a great opportunity to become strong economic centres, akin to Dublin. I don't think a few road upgrades along the N20 and a slightly improved rail service is really going to provide anything like that opportunity.

cgcsb · 25-11-2015 4:52pm

zulutango wrote: »

cgscb, a motorway between the two cities could radically alter the population dispersal on this island. It could lead to a counter balancing of the lopsided economic growth we've had in Ireland for the last century. It could give Cork and Limerick a great opportunity to become strong economic centres, akin to Dublin. I don't think a few road upgrades along the N20 and a slightly improved rail service is really going to provide anything like that opportunity.

I agree, but we're not getting the M20 for 2 decades at the least. I think it's legitimate to discuss alternative improvements given this timeframe.

Jofspring · 25-11-2015 6:00pm

Comparing car and train is a waste of time. A train will only get you to a certain point in the destination town/city where as a car will bring precisely where you want to go. The train is also expensive and if you are leaving a city late at night you haven't a hope.

cgcsb · 25-11-2015 6:07pm

It's not a question of either or though, it's how road and rail best complement each other. We're trying to move away from car dependence and C02 emissions as a society. Trains are a means to help accomplish this.

Trains in Ireland are not expensive either, you can cross the entire country for about €15 most of the time, try a quick trip to the UK, £150 for a London-Manchester ticket on a conventional speed service is the norm. Regarding point to point transport, you simply use your leap and change onto a City bus or take out a City bike when you get to the other side.

Obviously there are limits to what public transport can do at the minute, people who need to travel at 2am aren't accommodated for example, but the majority of journeys can be accommodated.

zulutango · 25-11-2015 6:20pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Obviously there are limits to what public transport can do at the minute, people who need to travel at 2am aren't accommodated for example, but the majority of journeys can be accommodated.

I admire your positivity but this just isn't true.

Vanquished · 25-11-2015 11:45pm

zulutango wrote: »

cgscb, a motorway between the two cities could radically alter the population dispersal on this island. It could lead to a counter balancing of the lopsided economic growth we've had in Ireland for the last century. It could give Cork and Limerick a great opportunity to become strong economic centres, akin to Dublin. I don't think a few road upgrades along the N20 and a slightly improved rail service is really going to provide anything like that opportunity.

That's a bit of a stretch now! The M20 is of course a critical and strategic piece of infrastructure but it needs to be accompanied by an effective and robust planning policy if your assertion is to have any chance of even becoming a possibility!

The reality is that we do not possess a mature attitude towards sustainable living in this country. We still permit and endorse the construction of one-off houses all over the countryside, often in highly inappropriate locations. This is a major contributing factor to the under-development of our towns and cities. Over 70% of rural housing is one-off housing and the trend is continuing as this year half of new houses built throughout the country are one-offs.

I fear that the eventual development of the M20 will just encourage more unsustainable housing along that corridor to the detriment of the towns we should be supporting! It's also misguided to blame some form of Dublin orchestrated conspiracy for our ills and shortcomings. Especially when local government down here doesn't exactly have a stellar record in positioning Limerick or Cork to develop and reach their potential!

The M20 should be built as a matter of urgency but it can't be used as an excuse to facilitate more inappropriate development at the expense of our towns and cities!

zulutango · 25-11-2015 11:52pm

I fundamentally agree with everything you said except the very first part

For what it's worth, I do think the motorway could cause a radical economic shift in the country. But, of course, there are other things that have to happen too.

Vanquished · 26-11-2015 12:06am

It has the potential to be a game changer but it would need to be accompanied by major reforms and a radical attitude shift.

Does the political intelligence, desire and courage exist to help bring this about?

zulutango · 26-11-2015 10:51am

Vanquished wrote: »

It has the potential to be a game changer but it would need to be accompanied by major reforms and a radical attitude shift.

Does the political intelligence, desire and courage exist to help bring this about?

I'd like to think we're getting there, but there's no doubt that we've a long way to go.

Mr.H · 26-11-2015 12:41pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Try waiting for the number 4 (a high demand Dublin Bus route) In Phibsboro for an hour because there is a match on, these things happen in Dublin also.

I am not talking about the rest of the country having bad public transport during a match. I am talking about EVERY day.

Every City has traffic issues when a match is on. Doesnt matter if its Tipp town or London you will have traffic with a match.

In "non dublin cities" we often have long waits for buses when they even bother to show up. Sometimes I think the digital bus stop is just mocking me. I am talking about major routes as well by the way. Limerick: City-Uni is suppose to be every 15 but sometimes can stretch to 45. Waterford: city-cork rd is suppose to be every 20 but can often be an hour.................... This is on normal days not match days

cgcsb wrote: »

But as we've established it's not, Dublin got hardly anything in terms of transport in the recent capital expenditure plan, it certainly didn't receive 40% of the funds, to match the GDA's 40% of the State's population.

We got an €8m re-opening of 140 year old rail tunnel and a DART extension to Balbriggan (circa €10m) That's it.

Compared to what the rest of the country got??

Im sorry if I sound naive but I didnt see anything on that list nationally that will have any real change.

cgcsb wrote: »

I'm sorry but that is very far from the truth. Dublin's public transport scores worse than any other City of it's size in Europe in terms of connectivity, capacity, frequency and reliability.

You sound like you have never been to Waterford my friend. You would be lucky to get a bus anywhere.

Try visiting it sometime it is a site to behold (not trying to sound disparaging)

cgcsb wrote: »

It sounds like you're describing the Netherlands, Denmark, Austria and various other similarly sized west European states.

First of all Neterlands has Amsterdam, Rotterdam, the Hague, Utrecht and Edinhoven which are all BIG cities. In terms of land we are bigger but population they outnumber us by at least 3 to 1.

Austria have twice our pop but marginally bigger land. Vienna, Graz, Linz, Salzburg, Innsbruck and Klagenfurt.

Denmark is closer to our pop size but has half our land size. Copenhagen, Aarhus, Odense, Aalborg and Frederiksberg (technically considered part of Copenhagen but it is the Kildare of Denmark).

Im not trying to prove anything really by listing these cities other than these are all larger cities than Cork Galway Waterford and Limerick. Also that these countries encourage their pop to spread out. Only about 1/4 of their total pop lives in the capital where Ireland we try to encourage everyone to move to Dublin.

If you think our capitals transport is really poor compared to other capitals you should compare our national (outside the capital) transports compared to other non capital cities..................... SHOCKING

I really dont want this to be Dublin vs the rest of the country. All I am saying is with the limited budget that is there we need to upgrade the rest of the country and people in Dublin (incl. Politicians) dont seem to have a clue how bad the rest of the country is.

It is not in anyway good policy for EVERY transport change in the country to impact Dublin. I.e; if we upgrade the track from Dublin to Cork it will help Limerick also.......................... why not upgrade the track from Limerick to the Junction or better still upgrade the WRC to allow faster travel to encourage more users. Or how about upgrading tracks from Waterford to Limerick Junc? How about lay some tracks for direct trains from Limerick to cork??

Point is it always comes back to "how can we improve peoples experience in travelling to/from Dublin", and its wrong.

cgcsb wrote: »

Google puts the journey between Cork and Limerick at 1 hour and 39 minutes by car or 1 hour 29 minutes by train. How is there scope for a 2 hour time saving?

Have you ever driven that road?

You would be lucky to make it within 3 hours to be honest and thats at non peak times.

They started road works in a village called Buttevent about 3 or so years ago (at least thats when i first noticed it) and it has been an ongoing nightmare ever since.

M20 Limerick to Cork

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