Round pin plugs without fuses?

Blisterman · 06-04-2021 11:21am #1

Looking at installing floor lamps on a round pin lighting socket.

This would involve replacing a standard plug with a round pin one. However, the only round pin plugs I can find don't come with a fuse.

The original floor lamps would presumably have fuses which I'd now be removing. Is this ok from a safety point of view?

Henry. · 06-04-2021 12:09pm

It depends on the circuit and present 'fusing'

What's your plan for control of the lighting

The latest rules are 6amp RCBO for domestic lighting circuits which would be fine, replacing a 13amp socket with a 5amp socket backed by a 20amp MCB would not be ok

[Deleted User] · 06-04-2021 12:49pm

safe electric newsleter dec 16

ET101 requires that 5A Socket-outlets intended for the
connection of standard lamps or table lamps need to be
controlled by a switch (usually by the door), and RCD
protected.
We have come across 5A sockets protected by 10A
MCB’s and unfused plug tops being used by the
customer. Please ensure if you do install 5A sockets
that you advise the customer to use fused plug tops.
Most table lamps require 3A protection.

I asked 3/4 wholesalers if they had them and they said they don't exist.
I did find some MK ones online in the end but they were extremely expensive for a plug top.

06-04-2021 1:28pm

BrownFinger wrote: »

I did find some MK ones online in the end but they were extremely expensive for a plug top.

Interesting. I have never seen 5A plugs with fuses.

Henry. · 06-04-2021 1:32pm

Me neither,of be dubious about the need for fusing on a 6a or 10a B type lighting circuit

TheBoyConor · 06-04-2021 1:37pm

is there a 5A mcb available?

or install a FCU nearby with 5A fuse?

[Deleted User] · 06-04-2021 1:45pm

2011 wrote: »

Interesting. I have never seen 5A plugs with fuses.

I cant find them now, they were 15/20e so I didnt buy any.

Henry. · 06-04-2021 2:20pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

is there a 5A mcb available?

or install a FCU nearby with 5A fuse?

1. No

2. 3A is standard for lamps if fusing

I suppose the thing with lamps is follow 'manufacturers instructions' if they say fused at 3A

That's the way electrical work is gone now

06-04-2021 8:19pm

BrownFinger wrote: »

We have come across 5A sockets protected by 10A
MCB’s and unfused plug tops being used by the
customer.

In reality most domestic installations have lighting circuits protected by 10A MCBs / RCBOs. Many of these circuits have pendants that use 0.75 mm flex without fusing down. I'm wondering why the unfused plug in lamps present a greater risk.

On the continent plug tops for lamps (and for most appliances) tend to be unfused, yet they are normally plugged into circuits which are protected by devices that are rated at 16 or 20A. I'm not suggesting that this is the best approach, but it is the reality.

I think that expecting customers to use fused 5A plugs that are as rare as rocking horse sh!t is unrealistic to put it mildly.
Even if they somehow manage this most likely they will fit 13A fuses

liveandnetural · 09-04-2021 2:50am

https://www.tradesparky.com/wiring-accessories/miscellaneous/plugs/mk-641whi-plug-5a-round-pin-fused

coylemj · 09-04-2021 3:47pm

You'd often see those dainty triangular plugs with round pins used by table lamps in hotel lobbies. Originally, they were probably used for their looks but in later years, using that type of socket meant that guests couldn't hijack them for their laptops or to charge their phones.

But were those sockets also used by the cleaners for the hoover and if so, didn't that mean they were potentially unsafe if the lamp plug had no fuse and the circuit was capable of delivering sufficient power to drive a hoover? Or did hotel cleaners typically use secret 13A sockets concealed under the carpet?

09-04-2021 4:06pm

coylemj wrote: »

Originally, they were probably used for their looks but in later years, using that type of socket meant that guests couldn't hijack them for their laptops or to charge their phones.

I doubt it.
Laptops and phones consume a negligible amount of power. I doubt hotels would be concerned.

Or did hotel cleaners typically use secret 13A sockets concealed under the carpet?

From what I have observed they tend to use standard unconcealed sockets just like the rest of us.

TheBoyConor · 09-04-2021 6:26pm

It isn't the power consumption the hotels would be worried about - it is langers coming in, buying one cup of coffee at the bar and then sitting in the lobby for half the day turning it into their office.

09-04-2021 6:58pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

It isn't the power consumption the hotels would be worried about - it is langers coming in, buying one cup of coffee at the bar and then sitting in the lobby for half the day turning it into their office.

Do you honestly think that preventing use of sockets will prevent that?

Apart from the fact that mobile device batteries tend to last longer and longer many people use these:

https://www.currys.ie/ieen/power-bank-chargers/mobile-phones-and-accessories/mobile-accessories/362_3413_32042_xx_ba00006065-bv00309980/xx-criteria.html?s=powerbanks

coylemj · 09-04-2021 8:26pm

2011 wrote: »

I doubt it.
Laptops and phones consume a negligible amount of power. I doubt hotels would be concerned.

I wasn’t suggesting that the hotel was concerned about the power consumed, more that they didn’t want people disconnecting the lamps.

09-04-2021 9:06pm

coylemj wrote: »

I wasn’t suggesting that the hotel was concerned about the power consumed, more that they didn’t want people disconnecting the lamps.

Oh I see. Fair point.

Pandiculation · 24-04-2021 2:51pm

The one issue I would have with the use of BS546 round pin plugs is some plugs in that system still are manufactured without sheathed pins. I know the MK versions seem not to have, some other brands do.

Also I don’t think it’s particularly safe to use lamps with circuits that have no RCD. They get picked up, kids interact with them and lamp bulb holders with a bulb removed are one of the most dangerous devices in any home from the point of view of electric shock hazard as you’ve live, completely exposed terminals.

If you’re concerned about people using the sockets, I would just connect the lamp with a fused, switched spur. If it’s going to be standing in one position all the time, it seems like a cheap and reasonable option.

If you’re going for plugged in versions, you probably shouldn’t ever connect them to old non RCD protected lighting circuits and should ensure the plugs have sheathed pins.

Just out of curiosity, what do current Irish regulations require if someone were to fit a CEE 7/3 / Schuko 16 amp socket? They’re fairly standard as an convenience fitting for tourists in hotels for example. You’ll often see one or two of them provided eg over the dressing table / desk along side the normal U.K./Ireland type.

Can they be connected to a 20amp circuit (normal on the continent) or must it be 16 amp?

25-04-2021 7:23am

Pandiculation wrote: »

Also I don’t think it’s particularly safe to use lamps with circuits that have no RCD.

The rules require that lighting socket outlets are protected by an RCD.

Pandiculation · 25-04-2021 1:25pm

2011 wrote: »

The rules require that lighting socket outlets are protected by an RCD.

I’ve seen them on old lighting circuits - no RCDs, despite the normal sockets being RCD protected.

Likely old DIY, I assume.

25-04-2021 2:29pm

Pandiculation wrote: »

I’ve seen them on old lighting circuits - no RCDs, despite the normal sockets being RCD protected.

In terms of old wiring there is some much more shocking stuff out there.

Pandiculation · 25-04-2021 5:43pm

We took down the kitchen and discovered one of the cabinets was screwed straight into a run of twin & Earth feeding a socket that had been powering heavy kitchen appliances like a combination oven for the previous 25 years! The screw heads running at 225V, yet amazingly nobody ever noticed or tripped anything.

laus99 · 26-08-2021 11:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/116987843#Comment_116987843

Just out of curiosity, what do current Irish regulations require if someone were to fit a CEE 7/3 / Schuko 16 amp socket? They’re fairly standard as an convenience fitting for tourists in hotels for example. You’ll often see one or two of them provided eg over the dressing table / desk along side the normal U.K./Ireland type. Can they be connected to a 20amp circuit (normal on the continent) or must it be 16 amp?

Schuko sockets are not on 20A circuits on the continent, they are always 16A max.

The installation of those (and other foreign sockets) in ireland is an interesting question,

as well as the use of foreign mains adaptors.. as many of them come without inbuilt fuse

(and could therefore be overloaded).

my guess would be that the national wiring regulations have no provision

for installation of foreign sockets (and it is therefore against the rules).

also schuko typically don't have shutters covering the live and neutral internal contacts.

however, schuko sockets were widely used in Ireland until 1964 according to wikipedia

(have seen some myself in old buildings)

[Deleted User] · 27-08-2021 6:29pm

In France they absolutely are on 20 amp circuits, at least the French/Belgian 16 amp variant of Schuko (but it's effectively the same thing)

https://www.legrand.fr/questions-frequentes/combien-de-prises-de-courant-par-disjoncteur

If you're using 1.5mm2 conductors they're on 16amp - 8 sockets per circuit.

If you're using 2.5mm2 conductors they're on 20amp - 12 sockets per circuit.

Or for a kitchen 2.5mm2 conductors, 20amp MCB but limited to 6 sockets due to anticipated load.

So the protection on those sockets is 20amp MCB + 30mA RCD.

[Deleted User] · 27-08-2021 8:42pm

I’d just add, if you are needing to use plug in lamps with fuses, you can buy non-standard plugs that are basically BS1363 13Amp plug tops and sockets with keyed pins, or you can connect a lamp with a fused connection unit, but it’s not very practical.

Non-standard socket:

Round pin plugs without fuses?

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