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Undertaking

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  • 25-09-2017 3:31pm
    #1
    dtipp
    Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭


    Maybe someone can settle this.

    I drive on the Naas road in the small hours quite a bit, when there's usually little traffic.

    Three lanes, 100km limit, I drive on the left lane at, say, 80-90km.
    Every now and then, up ahead, there will be a car driving at 60-70km in the middle lane.

    Legally, I am supposed to move into the middle lane, then the outside lane, overtake, back into the middle lane, and then back to the left lane? And, usually repeat a few minutes later when I meet the next car in the middle lane.

    Question 1, Am I right that the law wants me to cross 4 lanes of traffic to pass out a car that shouldn't be in the middle lane?

    Question 2, Am I right that I should ignore the law, and do the safer thing and stay in the left lane?

    Middle_lane_hogging.jpg


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    #2
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,885 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    dtipp wrote: »

    Question 1, Am I right that the law wants me to cross 4 lanes of traffic to pass out a car that shouldn't be in the middle lane?


    Yes
    Question 2, Am I right that I should ignore the law, and do the safer thing and stay in the left lane?


    Is it "right"? not in the legal context

    but obviously many do just that


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    #3
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    The problem with staying in the left lane and undertaking, is that it can be very hard to observe anything coming from the right of who you are undertaking.

    I only do it in bunched up traffic. I wouldn't do it because someone is sitting in the wrong lane.


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    #4
    dtipp
    Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭dtipp


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    The problem with staying in the left lane and undertaking, is that it can be very hard to observe anything coming from the right of who you are undertaking.

    I only do it in bunched up traffic. I wouldn't do it because someone is sitting in the wrong lane.

    True, my biggest concern when doing it is that the driver in the middle lane might be the type to just pull sharply into the left lane without looking or indicating. And then where legally would I be (presuming we all survive!)


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    #5
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,353 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    dtipp wrote: »
    True, my biggest concern when doing it is that the driver in the middle lane might be the type to just pull sharply into the left lane without looking or indicating. And then where legally would I be (presuming we all survive!)
    True, the type of driver who doesn't know which lane they are supposed to be driving is equally likely to be clueless about other aspects of their driving.

    I've had this happen on a dual carriageway with a 'driver' hogging the overtaking lane at less 80Kmh, on an otherwise empty road where the limit was 100Kmh. I sat behind them for almost a mile hoping they'd get the hint but it was obvious they didn't use their rere view mirror either. I was considering undertaking but decided to drop back a bit and bide my time in the driving lane as who knows what the idiot might do next.

    Sure as anything, about a half a mile further up the road, the car swung straight from the overtaking lane , across the driving lane and up the exit sliproad, without indicating. I was glad I had dropped back a bit as I would not have liked to have been closer to the idiot when they disd that.

    In my experience you're better keeping a distance between yourself and someone who shows they are incompetent on the road,


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    #6
    eeguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    Is it undertaking if you're simply moving faster than the car in a lane to your right?

    I thought undertaking was a maneuver, where you move from overtaking lane to left lane, undertake a car, then move back to overtaking lane.


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    #7
    SmartinMartin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,937 ✭✭✭SmartinMartin


    you are perfectly entitled to pass traffic on the left if the traffic in that lane is moving slower than you.


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    #8
    colm_mcm
    Registered Users Posts: 73,382 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    Correct thing to do would be pass them on the right.
    SmartinMartin wrote: »
    you are perfectly entitled to pass traffic on the left if the traffic in that lane is moving slower than you.

    Don't think so. Don't have the exacts, but is that not traffic as in congestion as opposed to one car?


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    #9
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,353 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    eeguy wrote: »
    Is it undertaking if you're simply moving faster than the car in a lane to your right?

    I thought undertaking was a maneuver, where you move from overtaking lane to left lane, undertake a car, then move back to overtaking lane.
    Yes, you should always overtake on the right and return to the driving lane once you have passed the car or cars you are overtaking. Don't remain inthe overtaking lane if you are not overtaking.

    Overtaking on the left (or undertaking) is a no no unless you are in slow moving traffic, i.e. close to stationary, queued traffic.


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    #10
    tedpan
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 4,627 Mod ✭✭✭✭tedpan


    FishOnABike wrote:
    Yes, you should always overtake on the right and return to the driving lane once you have passed the car or cars you are overtaking. Don't remain inthe overtaking lane if you are not overtaking.

    Exactly.

    FishOnABike wrote:
    Overtaking on the left (or undertaking) is a no no unless you are in slow moving traffic, i.e. close to stationary, queued traffic.

    Unfortunately not, but I agree with you. The rules of the road in Ireland say it's fine to undertake as long as you're traveling at similar speed. It's a rule that I'm not a fan of TBH.


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    #11
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,353 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    tedpan wrote: »
    Unfortunately not, but I agree with you. The rules of the road in Ireland say it's fine to undertake as long as you're traveling at similar speed. It's a rule that I'm not a fan of TBH.

    S.I. No. 182/1997: ROAD TRAFFIC (TRAFFIC AND PARKING) REGULATIONS, 1997
    Overtaking

    Section 10.

    (1) A driver shall not overtake, or attempt to overtake, if to do so would endanger, or cause inconvenience to, any other person.

    (2) A driver shall not overtake, or attempt to overtake, unless the roadway ahead of the driver— (a) is free from approaching traffic, pedestrians and any obstruction, and (b) is sufficiently long and wide to permit the overtaking to be completed without danger or inconvenience to other traffic or pedestrians.

    (3) A driver shall not overtake, or attempt to overtake, on a stretch of roadway on which traffic sign number RUS 014 [no overtaking] has been provided.

    (4) Subject to the provisions of sub-article (5), a driver shall overtake on the right and shall not move in towards the left until it is safe to do so.

    (5) A driver may only overtake on the left—
    ( a ) where the driver of the vehicle about to be overtaken has signalled an intention to turn to the right and the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after overtaking, to go straight ahead or to turn to the left,
    ( b ) where the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after overtaking, to turn left at the next road junction and has signalled this intention,
    ( c ) in slow moving traffic, when vehicles in the traffic lane on the driver's right are moving more slowly than the overtaking vehicle.


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    #12
    TheQuietFella
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭TheQuietFella


    SmartinMartin wrote: »
    you are perfectly entitled to pass traffic on the left if the traffic in that lane is moving slower than you.

    Absolutely not! The correct procedure is to overtake as suggested by the OP.


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    #13
    McCrack
    Registered Users Posts: 2,968 ✭✭✭McCrack


    Im not convinced that overtaking on the left as opposed to the right on a three lane road is or should be any more risky...the point that the driver being over taken could potentially cross to either lane without checking although I appreciate they are more likely to cross to the left rather than the right.

    I always drive with lights on to try minimise these gob****es hogging middle/outside lanes crossing you and try encourage them to actually see you.


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    #14
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,353 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    I
    TheQuietFella wrote: »
    Absolutely not! The correct procedure is to overtake as suggested by the OP.
    Spot on. The limited circumstances where one can overtake on the left are set out in section 10 of S.I. No. 182/1997: ROAD TRAFFIC (TRAFFIC AND PARKING) REGULATIONS, 1997.

    The definition of 'slow' could depend on the observing garda and district court judge (and their respective humours on the day). Anything other than slow moving, queued traffic where changing lanes is impractical, is outside the allowed exceptions. At normal driving speeds in free flowing traffic it's definitely against the law.

    As it is the responsibility of the overtaker to ensure they do not endanger or inconvenience others, if anything goes wrong, the overtaker is on the back foot when it comes to liability.


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    #15
    dtipp
    Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭dtipp


    Good discussion here, fair play.

    I think, as FishOnABike says, if anything were to go wrong as you were passing on the left side of a car, you'd be in trouble legally - no matter how it happened.

    However, I must admit I will continue to do it. I'll be on a three-lane one-way road tomorrow night. When I see a car sitting in the middle lane (it's inevitable!) will I do the 4-lane shuffle to pass it? I doubt it.


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    #16
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    dtipp wrote: »
    Good discussion here, fair play.

    I think, as FishOnABike says, if anything were to go wrong as you were passing on the left side of a car, you'd be in trouble legally - no matter how it happened.

    However, I must admit I will continue to do it. I'll be on a three-lane one-way road tomorrow night. When I see a car sitting in the middle lane (it's inevitable!) will I do the 4-lane shuffle to pass it? I doubt it.

    It is the repsonsibilty of someone changing lanes to make sure it is safe to do so.


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    #17
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    McCrack wrote: »
    Im not convinced that overtaking on the left as opposed to the right on a three lane road is or should be any more risky...the point that the driver being over taken could potentially cross to either lane without checking although I appreciate they are more likely to cross to the left rather than the right.

    I always drive with lights on to try minimise these gob****es hogging middle/outside lanes crossing you and try encourage them to actually see you.

    The expectation is that traffic is to be on the left. If you are undertaking someone, you have reduced observation of what is to the right of them. This is something I see all the time on the Lucan exit for the m50. One could be unprepared to deal with someone pulling in ahead of them. And then across you. Regardless of the concept of right of way, I'd not be comforted by it after a crash and rather not add to the amount of things I've to consider while driving.


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    #18
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,329 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    dtipp wrote:
    True, my biggest concern when doing it is that the driver in the middle lane might be the type to just pull sharply into the left lane without looking or indicating. And then where legally would I be (presuming we all survive!)


    People who got middle lanes never do that. It's just not in their DNA.


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    #19
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,469 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    It's overtaking on the left, not undertaking!

    While the correct procedure is to move to lane 2, then 3, over take and then back to 2 and back to 1 that's 4 separate manoeuvres instead of 0 and is pretty pointless in the grand scheme of things. The law needs to be changed to allow overtaking on the left, in modern times there's no need for the overtake on the right only-esque rule. Modern vehicle have mirrors on both sides.


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    #20
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    It's overtaking on the left, not undertaking!

    While the correct procedure is to move to lane 2, then 3, over take and then back to 2 and back to 1 that's 4 separate manoeuvres instead of 0 and is pretty pointless in the grand scheme of things. The law needs to be changed to allow overtaking on the left, in modern times there's no need for the overtake on the right only-esque rule. Modern vehicle have mirrors on both sides.

    I disagree. The current law of not blocking overtaking lanes needs to be enforced and middle lane drivers should be fined. The news will spread with a speed of pint and you would be surprised how lane discipline improves... It even is a point offence (2pts, €60/€90 fine). Gardaí should just put a camera on the side of M50 and issue fines in bulk for the non-intercept offences...

    Do you think we would have similar discussion if we speak German? Don't think so - it is €200 for driving in overtaking lane while not overtaking - and it is being enforced.


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    #21
    dil999
    Registered Users Posts: 672 ✭✭✭dil999


    Overtaking on the left is a maneuver where you are behind a vehicle and you move to the vehicle's left. you speed up and pass the vehicle, and then move to the right again.

    Maintaining a legal and safe speed in your particular lane, irrespective of the speed of drivers in lanes to your right is not overtaking. There is nothing in the rules of the road that tells to slow down to the speed of traffic on your right. in fact it specifically says: "You must progress at a speed and in a way that avoids interference with other motorway traffic"

    If it was a requirement to reduce speed to the slowest vehicle to your right, traffic would grind to a halt.


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    #22
    cython
    Registered Users Posts: 4,757 ✭✭✭cython


    dil999 wrote: »
    Overtaking on the left is a maneuver where you are behind a vehicle and you move to the vehicle's left. you speed up and pass the vehicle, and then move to the right again.

    Maintaining a legal and safe speed in your particular lane, irrespective of the speed of drivers in lanes to your right is not overtaking. There is nothing in the rules of the road that tells to slow down to the speed of traffic on your right. in fact it specifically says: "You must progress at a speed and in a way that avoids interference with other motorway traffic"

    If it was a requirement to reduce speed to the slowest vehicle to your right, traffic would grind to a halt.
    Perhaps read the whole thread before responding the next time. The relevant section of the RTA which was already posted does not put this limitation/qualification on an overtake having to involve "active" changes in lane as you describe:
    FishOnABike wrote: »
    S.I. No. 182/1997: ROAD TRAFFIC (TRAFFIC AND PARKING) REGULATIONS, 1997
    Overtaking

    Section 10.

    (1) A driver shall not overtake, or attempt to overtake, if to do so would endanger, or cause inconvenience to, any other person.

    (2) A driver shall not overtake, or attempt to overtake, unless the roadway ahead of the driver— (a) is free from approaching traffic, pedestrians and any obstruction, and (b) is sufficiently long and wide to permit the overtaking to be completed without danger or inconvenience to other traffic or pedestrians.

    (3) A driver shall not overtake, or attempt to overtake, on a stretch of roadway on which traffic sign number RUS 014 [no overtaking] has been provided.

    (4) Subject to the provisions of sub-article (5), a driver shall overtake on the right and shall not move in towards the left until it is safe to do so.

    (5) A driver may only overtake on the left—
    ( a ) where the driver of the vehicle about to be overtaken has signalled an intention to turn to the right and the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after overtaking, to go straight ahead or to turn to the left,
    ( b ) where the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after overtaking, to turn left at the next road junction and has signalled this intention,
    ( c ) in slow moving traffic, when vehicles in the traffic lane on the driver's right are moving more slowly than the overtaking vehicle.
    In fact the bolded bits combined clearly deem passing on the left while both cars are in separate lanes to be overtaking on the left.


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    #23
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    The ignorance on Irish roads is astounding, I can't believe how many people make up their own rules. Oh and changing lanes is not difficult or dangerous, in fact it keeps me awake on a long journey to overtake properly. The solution to this sort of problem is to police the roads properly and get the lane hoggers sorted.


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    #24
    vrusinov
    Registered Users Posts: 162 ✭✭vrusinov


    TBH, I don't see a problem with occupying middle line in light traffic - there is still a full line on the right to overtake and you don't mingle with entering/exiting traffic and trucks. I am one of those who keeps in middle line, although I do the speed limit, not 80. Overtaking somebody doing 80 in middle line in front of me is not a problem - just one line change to overtake (and one to return).

    Obviously 80 is a bit too slow for middle line (or any line on N7 actually), but 90-100 is fine.


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    #25
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    vrusinov wrote: »
    TBH, I don't see a problem with occupying middle line in light traffic - there is still a full line on the right to overtake and you don't mingle with entering/exiting traffic and trucks. I am one of those who keeps in middle line, although I do the speed limit, not 80. Overtaking somebody doing 80 in middle line in front of me is not a problem - just one line change to overtake (and one to return).

    Obviously 80 is a bit too slow for middle line (or any line on N7 actually), but 90-100 is fine.

    Do you know there are four million motorists in this country in addition to YOU?


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    #26
    vrusinov
    Registered Users Posts: 162 ✭✭vrusinov


    Sure, but a very few of them are on N7 Sunday 7am.


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    #27
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,619 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    dil999 wrote: »
    Overtaking on the left is a maneuver where you are behind a vehicle and you move to the vehicle's left. you speed up and pass the vehicle, and then move to the right again.

    Maintaining a legal and safe speed in your particular lane, irrespective of the speed of drivers in lanes to your right is not overtaking. There is nothing in the rules of the road that tells to slow down to the speed of traffic on your right. in fact it specifically says: "You must progress at a speed and in a way that avoids interference with other motorway traffic"

    If it was a requirement to reduce speed to the slowest vehicle to your right, traffic would grind to a halt.

    Sorry but that's incorrect.

    Passing on the lhs (or undertaking) isn't legal in the circumstances you described which I've highlighted. You must move lanes and pass on the rhs only. It's an inconvenience since middle lane hoggers are also breaking the law but one offence doesn't justify the other.


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    #28
    dil999
    Registered Users Posts: 672 ✭✭✭dil999


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    Sorry but that's incorrect.

    Passing on the lhs (or undertaking) isn't legal in the circumstances you described which I've highlighted. You must move lanes and pass on the rhs only. It's an inconvenience since middle lane hoggers are also breaking the law but one offence doesn't justify the other.

    Nonsense.
    There is nothing in the rules of the road that says you must reduce your speed to that of vehicles to your right. It is NOT overtaking. If what you say was correct it would be 1) illegal to merge onto a motorway 2) Motorway traffic would ground to a halt.

    Overtaking, in the context of the rules of the road, is a specific manoeuvre, not the act of going faster than traffic in an adjoining lane.

    http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Learner%20Drivers/Rules_of_the_road.pdf
    "Before overtaking check that the way is clear, check in your mirror and
    check your blind spots to ensure another vehicle is not approaching from
    behind. Give your signal in good time, move out when it is safe to do so,
    accelerate and overtake with the minimum of delay."


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    #29
    whomitconcerns
    Registered Users Posts: 4,309 ✭✭✭whomitconcerns


    Try this fun on the M25 in UK...4 lanes, Im in lane 1....cross 3 lanes to overtake a car in lane 3 (of 4)..lane 2 is empty and lane 3 is almost empty. And then I have to move back to lane 1. Pain in the a$$ but it happens every time! And it becomes 5 lanes in places :(


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    #30
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,664 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    This comes up on Motors every so often and it's really simple..

    The OP is right.. only overtake on the right (UNLESS you're behind a car turning right and you're going straight on/left, OR the traffic on your right is moving slowly in heavy stop-start/congested traffic.. 60/70 km/h is not slowly)

    Undertaking on the left at speed is dangerous as most drivers (although they should!) will not expect a car to be there if they themselves change lanes into that left lane, and in my experience it's usually a manoeuvre performed by people weaving between 2/3/4 lanes of traffic to get maybe a car length ahead.

    Overtake on the right, or stay put until you can.


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    #31
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,619 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    dil999 wrote: »
    Nonsense.
    There is nothing in the rules of the road that says you must reduce your speed to that of vehicles to your right. It is NOT overtaking. If what you say was correct it would be 1) illegal to merge onto a motorway 2) Motorway traffic would ground to a halt.

    Overtaking, in the context of the rules of the road, is a specific manoeuvre, not the act of going faster than traffic in an adjoining lane.

    http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Learner%20Drivers/Rules_of_the_road.pdf
    "Before overtaking check that the way is clear, check in your mirror and
    check your blind spots to ensure another vehicle is not approaching from
    behind. Give your signal in good time, move out when it is safe to do so,
    accelerate and overtake with the minimum of delay."

    Incorrect.

    It's quite clear that you may only pass traffic on the rhs bar those couple of exceptions which have been quoted already.

    Passing someone by going faster in a lane on their lhs is overtaking (or undertaking) and is illegal. To even suggest otherwise is frankly laughable.


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