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Labour want to bring back auto-birthright citizenship

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 24,017 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    If you read that paragraph it goes on to explain that two-thirds of that figure were not then-current asylum seekers and many of those followed the pattern of arrival into the country just before birth.




    But even if you think about it for a minute: one-third of that 25% were from asylum seekers. So you are still talking about around 8% of all births at that time being to mothers who had entered the system to claim asylum status.


    In other words, 1-in-12 babies were being born to asylum seeking mothers. Another 2-in-12 were being born to non-nationals - many of whom were arriving in late pregnancy.


    That was why the change had to be made. It was an open door and easily open to abuse and word was spreading.

    I agree with the current law I was just shocked by the 25% figure


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,017 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    biko wrote: »
    Yes, a TD means influence. Influence means power.

    So Sinn Fein are in power in the UK and the Healy-Raes are in power in Ireland.

    You would be laughed out of any sane conversation for saying that. In power means has always meant and will always mean being a member of the party running government so only the Greens on your list are in power


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    breezy1985 wrote: »
    So Sinn Fein are in power in the UK and the Healy-Raes are in power in Ireland.

    You would be laughed out of any sane conversation for saying that. In power means has always meant and will always mean being a member of the party running government so only the Greens on your list are in power
    Hmm ok, let's accept that so we don't get bogged down in semantics.

    Let's trace back to your comment
    I'm left and I can tell you there is nothing left wing about this country and won't be in my lifetime
    Since there are plenty of left wing parties as I have shown, why do you think Ireland isn't left enough for you and what party should take it where you want it to go?
    Do you think Labour is right to try for another referendum about jus soli? Do you think we should have jus soli here?


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,017 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    biko wrote: »
    Hmm ok, let's accept that so we don't get bogged down in semantics.

    Let's trace back to your comment

    Since there are plenty of left wing parties as I have shown, why do you think Ireland isn't left enough for you and what party should take it where you want it to go?

    Ide be closest to Labour despite disagreeing with them on the current topic and I have no problems with the SD. PBP are not positive for me and just complain without offering anything decent or realistic in return and I don't really trust Sinn Fein not to flip flop on the left stuff when it suits and I don't see them doing too much in a left sense up north so far

    I agree these are left parties but I don't think any will have any significant power any time soon and we definitely will not get an all left alliance government in my lifetime


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    biko wrote: »
    Hmm ok, let's accept that so we don't get bogged down in semantics.

    Let's trace back to your comment

    Since there are plenty of left wing parties as I have shown, why do you think Ireland isn't left enough for you and what party should take it where you want it to go?
    Do you think Labour is right to try for another referendum about jus soli? Do you think we should have jus soli here?

    Again, Labour do not want another referendum. They want the Dail to change the law. There was a vote on this last year. SF was another party who voted in favour of changing the law. Thankfully it was voted down.


    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/vote/dail/32/2019-01-24/12/


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    seamus wrote: »
    The 2004 referendum was heavily pushed by racist groups, when such a thing had less profile in Ireland. There was a lot of disinformation flying around and made up stories of boats and planes filled with pregnant Nigerians. The change was unnecessary. "Anchor" children was an overblown boogeyman, but it was the foundation of the campaign to make the change.

    But a change back seems like it would be equally unnecessary. I'd love to know what the specific issues are that are trying to be fixed?

    I know there's a specific blind spot in regards to citizenship for people who've been here a long time in direct provision or otherwise without an official visa. Children especially. But that seems to me to be easily solved with legislation rather than a modification to the consitution.

    Personally I think that's too simplistic. Citizenship or "belonging" to a country is more than where your parents are from or on what soil you were born.

    I'm happy with an open enough regime that allows people to gain citizenship without reguiring archaic tests of lineage or knowlede, but that doesn't just throw it out like confetti.

    For example, an automatic right for anyone to apply for citizenship if they have been in residence for ten years or more, regardless of whether that residence is legal or not. This would include a general analysis of the individual's circumstances; convictions would disqualify them, but further education and/or a solid record of employment/self-employment (legal or otherwise) would help them.

    For children, granting automatic citizenship to any child over 3 that has been in continuous residence for 2 years before the age of six, 5 years before they turn ten, or 8 years before they turn 18. Any child who has been here that long, knows no other place as "home". It is cruel and spiteful to deny them the right to live here for life.

    passing the referendum merely brought us into line with the rest of the EU on this issue


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Geuze wrote: »
    To some degree yes, on certain matters, but as Mohawk put it earlier:
    mohawk wrote: »
    Do we need a right leaning party? Just because a person supports controlled immigration doesn’t mean they are right wing.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    breezy1985 wrote: »
    Jeysus lad don't worry I'm left and I can tell you there is nothing left wing about this country and won't be in my lifetime

    this country is overtly left leaning , it always was but it takes the cake this past decade


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭statesaver


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    passing the referendum merely brought us into line with the rest of the EU on this issue

    It did. I wonder why Labour and others want to break from the EU on this issue now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Yurt! wrote: »
    *The Chinese kid in Bray.
    In one high-profile case, Eric Zhi Ying Xue – a nine-year-old from Bray, Co Wicklow – faced removal from the state despite having been here for his entire life.

    Asked whether they were considering an amnesty for any of those affected by the citizenship referendum, the Department of Justice said that the EU had said cases would be dealt with on a case-by-case approach as opposed to any “mass regularisation”.

    https://www.thejournal.ie/citizenship-rights-irish-born-children-4475530-Feb2019/

    Deportation order against him was lifted last year
    https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/1217/1101717-deportation-order-against-wicklow-schoolboy-lifted/


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    biko wrote: »
    Moderate left parties in power
    Sinn Fein
    Labour
    Social Democrats

    More extreme left, still in power
    Green Party
    PBP

    Are these not left in your opinion breezy1985? If not, where are they on the political compass in your opinion?

    SF are far left by almost any definition


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    biko wrote: »
    Moderate left parties in power
    Sinn Fein
    Labour
    Social Democrats

    More extreme left, still in power
    Green Party
    PBP

    Are these not left in your opinion breezy1985? If not, where are they on the political compass in your opinion?

    SF are far left by almost any definition

    FF are moderate left


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    biko wrote: »
    Moderate left parties in power
    Sinn Fein
    Labour
    Social Democrats

    More extreme left, still in power
    Green Party
    PBP

    Are these not left in your opinion breezy1985? If not, where are they on the political compass in your opinion?

    SF are far left by almost any definition and far more left wing than the Greens who are relatively centrist on economic matters

    FF are moderate left


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    statesaver wrote: »
    It did. I wonder why Labour and others want to break from the EU on this issue now.

    because like many naval gazing middle class liberals , they just cant help themselves getting behind this issue , its a religious experience , an article of faith like " end DP "

    the left are deeply conformist , they need to assure their colleagues that they are devout on the hot button issues


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,941 ✭✭✭kravmaga


    https://twitter.com/labour/status/1325858794920939520

    I'm not quite old enough to remember fully but I do recall reading about so-called "boat babies" in the late 90's being a serious issue for the asylum system in this country. Not only people arriving pregnant but apparently some literally giving birth on ferries in Irish waters.


    Also just looking at the replies and seen this...


    EmZs1bxXUAIGozV?format=jpg&name=medium

    The law was changed by referendum in 2004 (in fact looks like the big decline arrivals started actually in 2003).

    I think Irish people might have questions about going back to such a regime.

    Anyhow Labour want to do just that.

    I'm not saying it's good or bad, I don't know but i'd have concerns because I think we are lax enough to be perfectly honest.

    It wasn't just on ferries they were arriving 8 months/ nearly full term pregnant, they were flying into airports also.

    I was working at Dublin airport in the late 90's and AGS were in charge of all Immigration /booths at that time, they said it was due to a loophole in the law that was being taken advantage of by citizens of various African countries( Nigeria mainly).

    I remember Mary Robinson had some doing in the particular legislation letting the free loaders enter Ireland , once the birth was in Ireland, then they got Irish citizenship plus the parents.

    http://mural.maynoothuniversity.ie/8819/1/1-s2.0-S0277539508000940-main.pdf


  • Registered Users Posts: 279 ✭✭thegetawaycar


    All the main political parties are left or centre left in Ireland, even FG who the far left often demonise as extreme right are quite left leaning in most things.

    In very few other countries would you be considered right leaning while increasing Social housing, raising Welfare rates, raising minimum wage and very few if any tax cuts at the same time increasing GP/Medical Cards and public healthcare with a slow move towards Slaintecare.

    There's also the non economic side where they are for gay marriage, abortion etc...

    The country most definitely needs a centre right party to fill the void.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,941 ✭✭✭kravmaga


    seamus wrote: »
    The 2004 referendum was heavily pushed by racist groups, when such a thing had less profile in Ireland. There was a lot of disinformation flying around and made up stories of boats and planes filled with pregnant Nigerians. The change was unnecessary. "Anchor" children was an overblown boogeyman, but it was the foundation of the campaign to make the change.

    @Seamus, this is complete rubbish what you have said here. Your just generalising with an agenda which smells of a bleeding heart liberal.

    I worked for Aer Rianta , now (D.A.A) in Dublin Airport in the late 90's. I had a very good relationship with all key stakeholders such as Customs, GARDA Immigration, Airport Police etc. This is fact and true account of what I observed many times.

    There were many times due to the sheer volume of asylum seekers at immigration arrivals , that the facilities were not built to hold the volume being detained for questioning.

    Many a time some of the detained persons even escaped from the holding facility in Pier B onto the ramp area with no shoes on , Garda plus Airport Police , Airport Fire Service had to locate them fast due to departing /arriving aircraft on the main runway 10/28.

    It was a very busy and chaotic time. And the change was necessary and there was no dis-information doing the rounds.

    Unless you worked in a front line public service role dealing with the immigration at the time, what you said above is garbage.:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,941 ✭✭✭kravmaga


    Gatling wrote: »
    So they want to bring back the Lagos express , with buses and ambulances taking women in labor straight off a plane to the coombe hospital .

    There were no direct flights between Lagos and Dublin airport back then, most of them were arriving via Charles de Gaulle or Schiphol.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    kravmaga wrote: »
    There were no direct flights between Lagos and Dublin airport back then, most of them were arriving via Charles de Gaulle or Schiphol.

    It was called the Lagos express ,
    Especially in the maternity hospitals in Dublin


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,855 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    breezy1985 wrote: »
    I agree with the current law I was just shocked by the 25% figure




    Most people are. Which is why the "racist" tag is so easily thrown at people who say it was the right thing to do.



    Some people either weren't around then or don't remember it. Of course there will be a minority too that will still say "let everyone in" kind of thing on a philosophical basis but I think that most people who are still under the impression that it was not really a big issue would be shocked to see the 25% figure.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Mullaghteelin


    Even RTÉ were on to it, albeit focusing on the risks to the mothers involved. From Sep 1th 2003:
    Maternity hospitals in 'tragedy' warning
    Masters at two of Ireland's largest maternity hospitals say a number of women have almost died in the past few months as they travelled to the country in labour.

    There has been a substantial increase in the numbers of women coming to Ireland in the late stages of pregnancy...

    Masters of all three Dublin maternity hospitals have held a meeting with officials of the Eastern Regional Health authority and the Department of Justice to discuss what they have described as a 'tragedy waiting to happen'.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,941 ✭✭✭kravmaga


    Gatling wrote: »
    It was called the Lagos express ,
    Especially in the maternity hospitals in Dublin

    I well believe it , the ambulance service at Dublin airport was very busy also.;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,855 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Smee_Again wrote: »
    Just fix the asylum process so that people don't end up living hear for a decade while their claim is rejected or approved.

    Do that and this problem goes away.




    That's a separate issue. It does of course need to be fixed but even if it was extremely streamlined, bringing back birthright citizenship would still attract in citizenship tourists.


    Even if the asylum could be processed in 2 weeks. You could get a heavily pregnant woman landing in Dublin airport, destroying her passport in the toilets, and presenting herself at immigration claiming she is fleeing persecution from wherever ............. and within that two weeks have given birth.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    That's a separate issue. It does of course need to be fixed but even if it was extremely streamlined, bringing back birthright citizenship would still attract in citizenship tourists.


    Even if the asylum could be processed in 2 weeks. You could get a heavily pregnant woman landing in Dublin airport, destroying her passport in the toilets, and presenting herself at immigration claiming she is fleeing persecution from wherever ............. and within that two weeks have given birth.

    Great. Keep the kid ; put it up for adoption to a GAY COUPLE (sorry are you TRIGGERED???) and sell the egg donor to the Libyans (money put in trust for the Irish citizen child).


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,017 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    this country is overtly left leaning , it always was but it takes the cake this past decade

    Was always left leaning. Are we talking about the country that let all its schools be run by the church and locked up young girls for having pre marital sex only allowed divorce and condoms in the 90s because of religious conservatism.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,077 ✭✭✭Rubberchikken


    Multiculturalism isn't working really well in France.
    We need to be careful who we admit to our country. It shouldn't be seen as an easy place to get citizenship nor an easy place to gain entry to.


  • Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭Cirrus Incus


    There should be a high bar for citizenship. Only productive law abiding members of society who have been living here for years should be eligible.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    All the main political parties are left or centre left in Ireland, even FG who the far left often demonise as extreme right are quite left leaning in most things.

    In very few other countries would you be considered right leaning while increasing Social housing, raising Welfare rates, raising minimum wage and very few if any tax cuts at the same time increasing GP/Medical Cards and public healthcare with a slow move towards Slaintecare.

    There's also the non economic side where they are for gay marriage, abortion etc...

    The country most definitely needs a centre right party to fill the void.

    unlikely to happen until something approaching a conservative media outlet emerges , as a people we are too eager to appear respectable and anything but centre left just isnt respectable in ireland


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,332 ✭✭✭Arthur Daley


    Fake left strikes again


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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,017 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHa Fine Gael are left wing. Loopers the lot of ye


This discussion has been closed.
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