Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all,
Vanilla are planning an update to the site on April 24th (next Wednesday). It is a major PHP8 update which is expected to boost performance across the site. The site will be down from 7pm and it is expected to take about an hour to complete. We appreciate your patience during the update.
Thanks all.

Latin notation

  • 07-11-2020 4:43pm
    #1
    louis346789
    Registered Users Posts: 320 ✭✭


    Hi All
    My relation Patrick Mullen married Elizabeth Mullen at the Pro Cathedral Dublin
    on 25 th August 1893. They were both from same townland in county Louth.

    They got a dispensation. I am trying to establish if they were cousins e g first , second or other.I think the dispensation says Elizabeth is pregnant.

    https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/reels/st.mary's-pro-cath_mf_1862-1881_ma_0341.pdf

    Any advise or opinions please

    loluis


Comments

  • #2
    Vetch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 422 ✭✭Vetch


    I don't see a reference to pregnancy. It looks like the conducting of the marriage ceremony was delegated by the PP, Tallanstown.


  • #3
    louis346789
    Registered Users Posts: 320 ✭✭louis346789


    I know from birth records their daughter Mary was born 3 months afer they married. Born 11 November 1893.
    Would the dispensation be because of pregnancy or possibly cousins


  • #4
    New Home
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 76,314 Mod ✭✭✭✭New Home


    Maybe their fathers were first cousins - both have the same name.

    Actually, scrap that, sorry.


  • #5
    louis346789
    Registered Users Posts: 320 ✭✭louis346789


    Hi new home thanks. Just spotted they cannot be first cousins because of both fathers being Thomas. So possibly second cousins.
    Is there any other place where the reason for the dispensation would be recorded.


  • #6
    New Home
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 76,314 Mod ✭✭✭✭New Home


    I'm not sure to be honest. Could they have been too young to marry?


  • Advertisement
  • #7
    louis346789
    Registered Users Posts: 320 ✭✭louis346789


    No. Patrick was 35 years old and Elizabeth 36 years old.
    Patricks father was Thomas who was my GGF. Patrick was cut from his father's will.
    He got 1 penny in the will to prevent him making a claim on the estate.
    Words used were along the lines of "he left me a long time ago"


  • #8
    New Home
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 76,314 Mod ✭✭✭✭New Home


    Yikes...


  • #9
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,614 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    Mod note: OP has asked me to create separate thread. Go mad on discussion here!

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #10
    Mick Tator
    Registered Users Posts: 652 ✭✭✭Mick Tator


    The comment in the Dispensation column is a note by the celebrating priest - Obligatus a PP Tallanstown" - i.e. 'obliged to' - It is a simple acknowledgement that the priest in their home parish (where they normally would have married) had acknowledged there was no impediment to their marriage. Were they close cousins their degree of kinship would have been recorded (e.g. 'consang. in secundo/tertio grado.) [edit] they were living in Tallanstown and possibly wanted her 'bump' to pass unnoticed outside the home parish. Marriage while pregnant was not uncommon.


  • #11
    Vetch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 422 ✭✭Vetch


    The first word in the Latin notation appears to be 'Delegatus'. The column on the right of the left-hand page indicates they had a dispensation.


  • Advertisement
  • #12
    Mick Tator
    Registered Users Posts: 652 ✭✭✭Mick Tator


    Vetch wrote: »
    The first word in the Latin notation appears to be 'Delegatus'. The column on the right of the left-hand page indicates they had a dispensation.
    Agreed on delegatus. The 'Disp.' on the left-hand page relates to a dispensation with the Banns, the reason for getting the OK from their local PP in Tallanstown


  • #13
    louis346789
    Registered Users Posts: 320 ✭✭louis346789


    Thank you all for your help. This makes it even more confusing!. I was hoping they were cousins. If they are strangers it makes sorting the family tree even more difficult.

    I am still surprised they travelled to Dublin to get married. I know his father cut him from his inheritance because of the marriage. He was the oldest son and in line to inherit the small farm.



    Please keep the ideas coming.


  • #14
    KildareFan
    Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭KildareFan


    louis346789 wrote: »
    Thank you all for your help. This makes it even more confusing!. I was hoping they were cousins. If they are strangers it makes sorting the family tree even more difficult.

    I am still surprised they travelled to Dublin to get married. I know his father cut him from his inheritance because of the marriage. He was the oldest son and in line to inherit the small farm.



    Please keep the ideas coming.


    I would say you have the answer there - it is likely there was some tension between the two Mullen families and the marriage was not approved of; they eloped to Dublin to avoid mayhem in the Tallanstown church especially since the baby was on the way.



    DNA may help in working out the relationship between the two Mullen families. My great grandmother came from Inishbofin island; turns out others descended from a family with the same surname are not related. I suspect that my 2xgreat grandfather came to the island with the coast guard and wasn't related to the families already there with the same name.


  • #15
    VirginiaB
    Registered Users Posts: 399 ✭✭VirginiaB


    Dispensation from reading of the banns was a very common reason for giving a dispensation. There is an invaluable book, 'Bishop Loughlin's Dispensations, 1859-1866", compiled by Joseph Silinonte based on Diocese of Brooklyn records. There are thousands of dispensations from that time period with great genealogical info--parents' names, origin in Ireland, church where married etc. Silinonte notes that 80% of the dispensations were for reading of the banns. And I was delighted to find some of my own ancestors/relatives in the book. The vast majority of the couples described were from Ireland.


  • #16
    Mick Tator
    Registered Users Posts: 652 ✭✭✭Mick Tator


    Have you investigated the surnames of the witnesses to the marriage? It’s unusual to have a ‘randomer’ as a witness. Any connection? Usually there is one, frequently family, often the best man & bridesmaid (or in this case possibly just best friends). Have you checked Thoms for the Dublin addresses each gave? Were they boarding or guest houses?


  • #17
    KildareFan
    Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭KildareFan


    Mick Tator wrote: »
    Have you investigated the surnames of the witnesses to the marriage? It’s unusual to have a ‘randomer’ as a witness. Any connection? Usually there is one, frequently family, often the best man & bridesmaid (or in this case possibly just best friends). Have you checked Thoms for the Dublin addresses each gave? Were they boarding or guest houses?


    Mostly the witnesses have a connection so it's worth trying to follow them up. I have found however that some churches, such as St Andrews Westland Row have the same witnesses for multiple marriages. Usually parish workers.


  • #18
    louis346789
    Registered Users Posts: 320 ✭✭louis346789


    Hi All
    Thank you for Tips.
    I have the brides birth record . Also those of her siblings.
    I also have the marriage record of her father f Thomas to mullholland.

    Unfortunately it does not give the name of her paternal grandfather.

    This is making it difficult to establish his lineage. I was going on the false assumption that they wrecousins due to the dispensation. I agree this was due to the banns.

    Is there a possibility that the application for this dispensation would be recorded anywhere else.


  • #19
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,614 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    louis346789 wrote: »
    Is there a possibility that the application for this dispensation would be recorded anywhere else.

    Have never heard of such things but the relevant Diocesan archive would know for sure.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #20
    KildareFan
    Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭KildareFan


    Quote: Is there a possibility that the application for this dispensation would be recorded anywhere else.

    Check at the front or back of the register - sometimes the priest made a separate list of all dispensations.


Advertisement