Council Inspection for HAP

Graces7 · 26-10-2020 6:44am

Here I live in a council-owned " demountable dwelling" that had a very thorough electrician check when I arrived as it had been empty years.

Above my bed is a ventilation "grille" ; I was sleeping in a gale... There are others in the place; the door is next to the bedroom and the cats are in and out frequently . Also I leave the kitchen window ( down the short corridor) ajar. So I covered the grille above my bed four years ago.

It is totally necessary to have ventilation but to create poor conditions? I would neve, ever block air off. Just made living here possible .

Kermit.de.frog · 26-10-2020 7:27am

Old diesel wrote: »

A key issue appears to be that HAP inspectors want wall ventilation in each room. So to comply - you'd have to spend a lot of money to drill holes for this ventilation.

Nobody should be renting out a property without a vent in each bedroom and the living room at the very least along with extractor fans for other rooms.

This is not an "issue", it's basic common sense that the abode should be well ventilated otherwise mould will surface quickly and there are other potential risks particularly around dampness.

Not only is this a health hazard to the tenants it is also a strange way of maintaining a property that itself will be damaged in short order due to dampness and mould.

Yellow_Fern · 26-10-2020 10:43am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Nobody should be renting out a property without a vent in each bedroom and the living room at the very least along with extractor fans for other rooms.

This is not an "issue", it's basic common sense that the abode should be well ventilated otherwise mould will surface quickly and there are other potential risks particularly around dampness.

Not only is this a health hazard to the tenants it is also a strange way of maintaining a property that itself will be damaged in short order due to dampness and mould.

There is no risk of mould if the tenants are growns up and know to open the window daily. Sadly we don't do personal responsibility in this country. Installing a vent in a retrofit is a form of vandalism imo.

Graces7 · 26-10-2020 12:39pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Nobody should be renting out a property without a vent in each bedroom and the living room at the very least along with extractor fans for other rooms.

This is not an "issue", it's basic common sense that the abode should be well ventilated otherwise mould will surface quickly and there are other potential risks particularly around dampness.

Not only is this a health hazard to the tenants it is also a strange way of maintaining a property that itself will be damaged in short order due to dampness and mould.

I agree. Mostly! I killed the extractor fans they put in here as the sheer noise of them.

One thing struck me. When I came to view, this place had not or mould been lived in etc for five years. Closed up. And there was not a hint of damp etc as the vents worked so well
In several rentals I had to buy a dehumidifier.

But the draft from the one in the bedroom was intolerable .

Mad_maxx · 26-10-2020 1:05pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Here I live in a council-owned " demountable dwelling" that had a very thorough electrician check when I arrived as it had been empty years.

Above my bed is a ventilation "grille" ; I was sleeping in a gale... There are others in the place; the door is next to the bedroom and the cats are in and out frequently . Also I leave the kitchen window ( down the short corridor) ajar. So I covered the grille above my bed four years ago.

It is totally necessary to have ventilation but to create poor conditions? I would neve, ever block air off. Just made living here possible .

ventilation is indeed very important , i just think the councils are far too rigid about it , unwilling to show flexibility , one size fits all does not work in practice

emeldc · 26-10-2020 1:09pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Nobody should be renting out a property without a vent in each bedroom and the living room at the very least along with extractor fans for other rooms.

This is not an "issue", it's basic common sense that the abode should be well ventilated otherwise mould will surface quickly and there are other potential risks particularly around dampness.

Not only is this a health hazard to the tenants it is also a strange way of maintaining a property that itself will be damaged in short order due to dampness and mould.

I think you’re kind of missing the point. The houses/appts without adequate number of vents were all built according to the regs of the day. Now they don’t comply. In my case there is no extractor fan for the cooker hood and it would cost a couple of thousand euro to re route one through the appt. it wasn’t built 100 years ago, it was 2006! I have no damp or mould and my tenants have never suffered with any form of suffocation. But when you’re on hap and in the care of the council, they seem to think that their tenants are incapable of opening a window if they require fresh air. Before you know it they’ll want smart vents controlled by Alexa so the tenant is not disturbed from their box set. (Sorry for stereotyping).

eleventh · 26-10-2020 2:39pm

emeldc wrote: »

I have no damp or mould and my tenants have never suffered with any form of suffocation.

Ventilation is about air circulating in a way that fumes from cooking or heat sources are removed quickly and not left to hang in the air. How big are the windows you're talking about. If they are small windows, the amount of air coming in will depend on the direction they're facing.

MicktheMan · 26-10-2020 3:27pm

eleventh wrote: »

Ventilation is about air circulating in a way that fumes from cooking or heat sources are removed quickly and not left to hang in the air. How big are the windows you're talking about. If they are small windows, the amount of air coming in will depend on the direction they're facing.

Not quite true.
In a domestic setting and from a building physics point of view, ventilation's sole purpose is the continual removal of water vapour from the internal air. This is achieved by exhausting warm "wet" internal air and replacing it with cool "dry" external air on a continual basis. In the summertime, ventilation has no purpose as there is no "drying" effect.
Removal of smells etc is a secondary consideration and is generally achieved by opening a window occasionally.

goho123 · 26-10-2020 3:42pm

I have been through these nonsenses from HAP at the start and now I am thinking why did I bother? Because they will make you do all sorts of things but will not engage with you for any queries, like rent increase because they say that's between me and tenant. According to them, their client , i.e my Tenant, is on their limit. So I am not taking this **** again from these sort of people.

Graces7 · 28-10-2020 10:50am

Mad_maxx wrote: »

ventilation is indeed very important , i just think the councils are far too rigid about it , unwilling to show flexibility , one size fits all does not work in practice

They have to be rigid as there have been too many deaths when folk have been determined to block all incoming air in cold weather and suffocated.
It seems to happen every winter.

A case of "travelling at the pace of the weakest."

Here I have taken great care to avoid that and made sure one small window is always ajar.

Rows Grower · 28-10-2020 11:18am

Mad_maxx wrote: »

ventilation is indeed very important , i just think the councils are far too rigid about it , unwilling to show flexibility , one size fits all does not work in practice

I renovated a rental house last year and installed a triple glazed window in one bedroom that is designed with an option of opening a little specifically for ventilation while still being securely locked.

I rang the engineer that will be doing the inspection and he told me over the phone he was familiar with that design of window and they are a great job but because of regulations I would still need to fit a vent.

The window it replaced was good enough to pass inspection 12 years previously after I drilled a few holes through the upper part of the frame and fitted a 6 euro ventilated plastic cover on both sides.

Only option was to drill through 16 inches of stone wall and fit a vent.

mel123 · 28-10-2020 11:23am

Tenant recently (three months ago) due to Covid has gone on HAP. I rang them last week as i never received anything in regards to if they did an inspection. I got told in 'normal' times, it takes about 8 months for their inspection, but at the moment its a lot longer. (awkward tenant to i want a HAP inspection)

Rows Grower · 28-10-2020 12:07pm

mel123 wrote: »

Tenant recently (three months ago) due to Covid has gone on HAP. I rang them last week as i never received anything in regards to if they did an inspection. I got told in 'normal' times, it takes about 8 months for their inspection, but at the moment its a lot longer. (awkward tenant to i want a HAP inspection)

There's not you can do with an awkward tenant only comply with regulations and tell them not to be annoying you over mickey mouse problems.

Did you draw up a new tenancy agreement because of the change in circumstances?

The Student · 28-10-2020 2:11pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Nobody should be renting out a property without a vent in each bedroom and the living room at the very least along with extractor fans for other rooms.

This is not an "issue", it's basic common sense that the abode should be well ventilated otherwise mould will surface quickly and there are other potential risks particularly around dampness.

Not only is this a health hazard to the tenants it is also a strange way of maintaining a property that itself will be damaged in short order due to dampness and mould.

At what point do tenants actually act like adults. I have lived in houses built in 1940's (original corpo houses) and now live in a house built in the mid 1970's. None of them had vents in the bedrooms. I have insulated my current house and don't suffer with damp or mould.

How is it that tenants can live in exactly the same types of houses and they have damp and mould while others don't. Could it be the way they are acting rather than the construction of the property?

It never ceases to amaze me how it never seems to be the tenants fault but it is always the landlords fault.

aquinn · 28-10-2020 3:32pm

The Student wrote: »

At what point do tenants actually act like adults. I have lived in houses built in 1940's (original corpo houses) and now live in a house built in the mid 1970's. None of them had vents in the bedrooms. I have insulated my current house and don't suffer with damp or mould.

How is it that tenants can live in exactly the same types of houses and they have damp and mould while others don't. Could it be the way they are acting rather than the construction of the property?

It never ceases to amaze me how it never seems to be the tenants fault but it is always the landlords fault.

It is not the tenants deciding that they need vents in the room, it is the local housing authority when they come out to inspect. Our home doesn't have vents in every room but our rental property does which is a newer house, like 70+ years rather than 100. All rooms had ventilation like a fireplace but this wasn't acceptable to the local authority so vents had to be made in the walls.

Graces7 · 28-10-2020 5:35pm

The Student wrote: »

At what point do tenants actually act like adults. I have lived in houses built in 1940's (original corpo houses) and now live in a house built in the mid 1970's. None of them had vents in the bedrooms. I have insulated my current house and don't suffer with damp or mould.

How is it that tenants can live in exactly the same types of houses and they have damp and mould while others don't. Could it be the way they are acting rather than the construction of the property?

It never ceases to amaze me how it never seems to be the tenants fault but it is always the landlords fault.

Assuring you we ( tenants) are not always like that! I had my own dehumidifier in two houses that had black mould no matter how much air there was. And I love open doors and windows.

The worst rental was an old cottage where everything acquired damp and mould, and the wind came in through the slatted bedroom ceiling.

One night there was an almighty deluge and water came up through the stone flags in the kitchen.. They had been laid on the bare earth we learned, The landlord tried to blame us, saying it was a blocked gutter, but I had cleared those and kept them clear,
The agent agreed I could evacuate as an emergency. She was a JP.

By then there were three inches of water in the kitchen and the dogs were.... doing doggy paddle.

When the landlord realised I had left, he called my family begging me to return. Then got nasty when we said NO WAY. Started the blame game..

There are good guys and bad guys on both sides. Always have been and always will be.

The Student · 28-10-2020 7:44pm

aquinn wrote: »

It is not the tenants deciding that they need vents in the room, it is the local housing authority when they come out to inspect. Our home doesn't have vents in every room but our rental property does which is a newer house, like 70+ years rather than 100. All rooms had ventilation like a fireplace but this wasn't acceptable to the local authority so vents had to be made in the walls.

I think you are missing my point. The area I live in has over a thousand privately owned houses (a small few are rented out). These are all 3 bed semi detached built in the mid 70's.

I can identify which houses are rented and which are not simply by looking at the bedroom walls and seeing vents in them. I can guarantee that the owners of the properties that do not have vents do not have mould etc.

The point I am trying to make is that if damp and mould was as a result of how the properties were built then all houses should be suffering from damp and mould. This is not the case, so the only conclusion that can therefore be drawn from this is that the causes of damp and mould has to be as a result of the inhabitants rather than the structure itself.

While I appreciate that there can be issues in some houses with damp and mould as a result of leaking pipework, gutters etc the numbers of issues with damp and mould can't all be down to these factors.

The Student · 28-10-2020 8:14pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Assuring you we ( tenants) are not always like that! I had my own dehumidifier in two houses that had black mould no matter how much air there was. And I love open doors and windows.

The worst rental was an old cottage where everything acquired damp and mould, and the wind came in through the slatted bedroom ceiling.

One night there was an almighty deluge and water came up through the stone flags in the kitchen.. They had been laid on the bare earth we learned, The landlord tried to blame us, saying it was a blocked gutter, but I had cleared those and kept them clear,
The agent agreed I could evacuate as an emergency. She was a JP.

By then there were three inches of water in the kitchen and the dogs were.... doing doggy paddle.

When the landlord realised I had left, he called my family begging me to return. Then got nasty when we said NO WAY. Started the blame game..

There are good guys and bad guys on both sides. Always have been and always will be.

These type of properties are the exception rather than the rule. The vast majority of houses built in Ireland are either semi D's, or terraced etc. While there are cottages in Ireland most of the rented houses in Ireland fall into the semi D or terrace category.

Granted there are more and more apartments being rented now but the majority of these apartment blocks have only been constructed in the last 15 - 20 yrs or so.

Based on the language used in your post the property you referenced was an old property and as such you should have expected that it was not a modern build and as such would suffer from some age related issues.

I would assume the property probably did not have any damp course which probably added to the damp and mould issues.

Graces7 · 29-10-2020 1:49pm

The Student wrote: »

These type of properties are the exception rather than the rule. The vast majority of houses built in Ireland are either semi D's, or terraced etc. While there are cottages in Ireland most of the rented houses in Ireland fall into the semi D or terrace category.

Granted there are more and more apartments being rented now but the majority of these apartment blocks have only been constructed in the last 15 - 20 yrs or so.

Based on the language used in your post the property you referenced was an old property and as such you should have expected that it was not a modern build and as such would suffer from some age related issues.

I would assume the property probably did not have any damp course which probably added to the damp and mould issues.

That was not my point and again t is " blame the tenant" time? As the landlord tried to do! Actually it does reinforce my point! Thank you. And regardless of age basic standards laid down still apply?

The Student · 29-10-2020 2:30pm

Graces7 wrote: »

That was not my point and again t is " blame the tenant" time? As the landlord tried to do! Actually it does reinforce my point! Thank you. And regardless of age basic standards laid down still apply?

So are you saying that the tenant is never at fault for dampness and mould? And that mould and damp is always due to the construction of the property?

crossmolinalad · 29-10-2020 2:47pm

The Student wrote: »

I think you are missing my point. The area I live in has over a thousand privately owned houses (a small few are rented out). These are all 3 bed semi detached built in the mid 70's.

I can identify which houses are rented and which are not simply by looking at the bedroom walls and seeing vents in them. I can guarantee that the owners of the properties that do not have vents do not have mould etc.

The point I am trying to make is that if damp and mould was as a result of how the properties were built then all houses should be suffering from damp and mould. This is not the case, so the only conclusion that can therefore be drawn from this is that the causes of damp and mould has to be as a result of the inhabitants rather than the structure itself.

While I appreciate that there can be issues in some houses with damp and mould as a result of leaking pipework, gutters etc the numbers of issues with damp and mould can't all be down to these factors.

Think home owners are more secure on their home and opening windows on a daily base and a tenant not
Those vents in rentals sucks , know tenants who close those vents with old clothes or glassfibre wool
Seen one case they filled it with expanding foam
Some cases of damp is the structure specially in old houses but most of then is lack of ventilation by the tenant and drying clothes inside without opening of a window in the room
Think that will be the main reason HAP inspectors want those stupid vents in every room in the house

The Student · 29-10-2020 2:55pm

crossmolinalad wrote: »

Think home owners are more secure on their home and opening windows on a daily base and a tenant not
Those vents in rentals sucks , know tenants who close those vents with old clothes or glassfibre wool
Seen one case they filled it with expanding foam
Some cases of damp is the structure specially in old houses but most of then is lack of ventilation by the tenant and drying clothes inside without opening of a window in the room
Think that will be the main reason HAP inspectors want those stupid vents in every room in the house

This is exactly my point. Tenants actions that the landlord is held accountable for.

Some of the older houses need updating but not houses built certainly from the 1970's onwards.

Graces7 · 29-10-2020 4:51pm

The Student wrote: »

So are you saying that the tenant is never at fault for dampness and mould? And that mould and damp is always due to the construction of the property?

lol...

I have never ever been at fault re damp and mould in any of the properties I have rented. And in over half the properties I have rented there has been existing damp/mould. And with the exception of the one that flooded I have always left properties drier and in better condition that when I moved in. And the way that landlord acted? Blaming …. wriggling out of it.

Over and out!

Rows Grower · 29-10-2020 6:37pm

crossmolinalad wrote: »

Think home owners are more secure on their home and opening windows on a daily base and a tenant not
Those vents in rentals sucks , know tenants who close those vents with old clothes or glassfibre wool
Seen one case they filled it with expanding foam
Some cases of damp is the structure specially in old houses but most of then is lack of ventilation by the tenant and drying clothes inside without opening of a window in the room
Think that will be the main reason HAP inspectors want those stupid vents in every room in the house

Nail on the head there in my experience, too mean to use the tumble dryer provided and too lazy to use the clothes line even in the sunniest of weather.

arrianalexander · 05-08-2021 4:51pm

How long in people's experience does it take from inspection to issuing the report ?

DrPhilG · 02-12-2021 5:17pm

Thread bump...

I have a property rented, has been rented for 9 years since I moved out of it myself.

This year I got my first HAP tenant, and sure enough a letter arrived soon after to say that I would be inspected and the placed needed brought up to code.

I did the obvious stuff first, window restrictors. Already had smoke alarms, carbon monoxide alarms, fire blanket etc. But I had a spark in to check the place, and he said that there was a load of stuff to do. Changing switch heights, rewiring a load of circuits etc. Quoted about €5k.

That's a kick in the teeth, but if it needs done, it needs done. However that spark wasn't very helpful, wasn't prepared to chase walls etc to do the job right, insisted on external ducting across the ceiling and down to the switches etc, would have made a dogs dinner of the place.

Anyway I've been chasing a few other sparks etc to get me a quote to do the job right, but being tradesmen of course they're slow as hell.

I've just got a letter to say that the council inspector is coming NEXT WEEK.

Anyone know what the process is? They're not going to start throwing fines my way now are they? Or do they just give me a list of what's wrong and a time frame to complete it?

As I say I don't mind paying the money, but it needs done properly and without leaving the place looking like crap.

[Deleted User] · 02-12-2021 6:20pm

They should give you a list of what upgrades are required and a reasonable timeframe to do them.

Id never heard of the lowering of switches till your post. Wouldn’t installing smart bulbs/Alexa do the same thing?

DrPhilG · 02-12-2021 8:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118258051#Comment_118258051

Not sure to be honest. I wish it would, this rewiring job is going to cost a bloody fortune.

The Student · 02-12-2021 9:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118258857#Comment_118258857

They will give you a list of what needs to be done and you will get 6 or 7 weeks to do the work.

I never heard about moving light switches before. If your house was rewired from the 70s onwards I don't know why it needs rewiring. A few extra sockets maybe separating into a few circuits but not a full rewire.

Any chance electrican is trying to pull a fast one?

Personally I would not do anything until you get the report.

DrPhilG · 03-12-2021 1:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118259033#Comment_118259033

I don't know if it has been rewired since the 70s to be honest.

I've been told that the council need a certificate of compliance with electrical regulations, and 3 different sparks have said that one of the criteria is lowering of switches.

I'll get more info on what legislation requires it and report back.

Council Inspection for HAP

Comments