Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all,
Vanilla are planning an update to the site on April 24th (next Wednesday). It is a major PHP8 update which is expected to boost performance across the site. The site will be down from 7pm and it is expected to take about an hour to complete. We appreciate your patience during the update.
Thanks all.

Public servants' inability to afford to pay rent in Dublin.

1…910121415…17

Comments

  • #332
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,417 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    4ensic15 wrote:
    Emotional blackmail. Parents should teach children to read and then they can learn what they want from books or the internet. Teachers have managed to create this alternative universe where everybody has to go to school so they can keep their jobs and pensions.


    Actually it is the law of the land that they have to have schooling to q certain level.


  • #333
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    Actually it is the law of the land that they have to have schooling to q certain level.

    The law is that people have to attend school between certain ages, not that they stay at school until they achieve any standard. Who got that law brought in? Teachers! For whose benefit? Teachers! Who is repsonsible for the fact that there are illiterate teenagers?


  • #334
    ligerdub
    Registered Users Posts: 2,584 ✭✭✭ligerdub


    Lana Black Conduit wrote: »
    Of course there is as there is large amounts of low skilled work in the private sector that will always be low paid. A teacher is a highly skilled and massively important job with huge responsibly for the education of the next generation.

    Well this is clearly not a massively generous interpretation of the teaching profession. No, not at all.


  • #335
    Naos
    Registered Users Posts: 4,728 ✭✭✭Naos


    Lana Black Conduit wrote: »
    The rate of salary increase in the private sector is vastly faster than the public sector. You might have a teacher coming up to retirement on 60k with is fairly s1it pay for someone with 30 years experience. You will find a lot of people in the private sector in their early 30’s on 60k and a lot more.

    Probably because in order to stick around in the private sector and get those increases, you need to keep learning and doing more than just your job.

    A teacher with 30 years experience, how many of those have they actively been trying to better themselves?


  • #336
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Naos wrote: »

    A teacher with 30 years experience, how many of those have they actively been trying to better themselves?

    The vast majority, being a teacher now is nothing like it was even 15 years ago. I really think that people don’t understand what a teacher does or even close because if they did they wouldn’t be on here taking nonsenses about how they are overpaid but rather complementing them and agreeing they should be paid more.

    The classroom and teaching a subject is only part of the work, and the only bit a lot appear to think they do.


  • Advertisement
  • #337
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    limnam wrote: »
    I can't think of many PS jobs that have no guaranteed increment structure .... There's a lot to be said for guaranteed increments/job for life etc.

    You could always join the public service if it's so great? Well, why haven't you?

    Personally, I wouldn't underestimate the attraction of all those cash-in-the-hand professions and trades over all these smucks in their PAYE-paying jobs in the public service. A public service increment? Are you for real? How much? €1000 or something every year or two? A €1000 that is before tax at between 50%- 60%, and including inflation (and, yes, the 10.5% PRD tax that all public servants must pay on top of PAYE and USC etc is a tax, not a pension contribution no matter how many illiterates claim otherwise)?

    Now, compare your much-vaunted increment to your average spark, chippy, architect, doctor, etc etc ad nauseam and the heaps of unrecorded cash they are paid in. Well? Are you even aware of the extent of that world? And in your genius analysis of the glories of being a public sector employee, you manage to overlook the huge number of people who leave secure public service jobs, most obviously teaching and nursing, for the private sector. Doesn't sound much like a great job from that perspective.

    Really, your anti-public service ráiméis is ignorance of economic reality on a fairly stunning scale. Give me any PAYE-payer in the public or private sector over the huge array of self-employed tax-dodgers in Ireland in 2018. If you're looking for a more accurate divide in the Irish economy - and clearly you're looking for some divide - it's between people who pay their fair share of tax, otherwise known as PAYE workers, and the people who dodge paying their fair share of tax, otherwise known as the self-employed and unemployed - from the billionaires to the self-employed professions and trades to the perpetually lazy. There really isn't as much between the two of them as some people would like to contend there is.


  • #338
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Lana Black Conduit wrote: »
    The vast majority, being a teacher now is nothing like it was even 15 years ago. .

    Teaching is teaching. Always was and always ever will be. The only difference I can see is they now have whiteboards instead of the blackboards which were in use in my day. Probably so the little darlings don't have to waste their extensive leisure time brushing the chalk dust from their clothes.


  • #339
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Naos wrote: »
    Probably because in order to stick around in the private sector and get those increases, you need to keep learning and doing more than just your job.

    A teacher with 30 years experience, how many of those have they actively been trying to better themselves?

    If I had a teacher with 30 years service inspiring my kids every day, I don't see what boring course she could do that would better herself. She would be at the top of her game, "bettering" herself each day in that class.

    This bollocksology that one must keep doing pointless waffle courses to "upskill" with all the latest, eh, lingo is well past its sell-by date. It can't die a death soon enough. We should have an After Hours thread for tales from the many victims of these "professional development" types whose greatest achievement is invariably to give a new name to something you've been doing for years.


  • #340
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Conversely I've a friend who is a college lecturer on 90k, is contracted to do 18 hours a week 35 weeks of the year. He probably averages about 22 hours when busy term time and not busy summer holidays are taken into account.

    I suspect this is a lecturer in an IoT.

    To get 90k, you would have to be an SL Senior Lecturer.

    There are very few of these.


  • #341
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Yes. Add the PRD (10.5%) on to PAYE, USC, PRSI and whatever else they pay and all public sector employees are taking home only 40% of everything they earn above €34, 550.

    Yes, I can confirm that the marginal deductions for a PS over 35k approx are 60%.

    40% tax + USC + 4% PRSI + 6.5% pension conts + 10% PRD


  • Advertisement
  • #342
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    Teaching is teaching. Always was and always ever will be. The only difference I can see is they now have whiteboards instead of the blackboards which were in use in my day. Probably so the little darlings don't have to waste their extensive leisure time brushing the chalk dust from their clothes.

    Do you realise the amount of work that teachers have to put in with dealing with students and dealing with their parents? It’s a constant drain on their time that then has to be made up on evenings and weekends. Add to that the massive amount of paperwork, inspections and documentation etc they have nearly a full time job before every actually doing any teaching, preparation and correcting.

    Also I don’t think people who have never taught understand how intense and tiring it is. I’ve done a bit of lecturing and 2 or 3 hours of lectures/teaching in a day would tire you out more than a full day’s work in the lab/office. When you are teaching you have to give your 100% attention constantly. Not taking a break for a chat or a cup of tea when ever you feel like it, browsing the web, going for a walk around the office to unwind a bit, sending a few texts etc etc all things I do during the day in what would be considered a very hard and very highly skilled job.


  • #343
    limnam
    Registered Users Posts: 9,152 ✭✭✭limnam


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You could always join the public service if it's so great? Well, why haven't you?




    Why do people keep asking this boring question. Another example of our education system. No creativity or imagination everyone rolling out the same clap trap.


    I don't think it's great at all. In fact I couldn't think of a worse place to work (in this country)


    Saying all that. I'm still entitled to have an opinion on it, right?


    I can still not want to be a teacher and think they're over paid. right?


    I can still love my job, career choice, salary and still have an opinion on the PS right?


    I wouldn't mind some of the perks of some PS jobs. But to be surrounded by some of the most lowly motivated work force dross that's in it?


    No chance.


    But that doesn't change the fact I can harp on about teachers salaries without joining the PS


  • #344
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Lana Black Conduit wrote: »
    Do you realise the amount of work that teachers have to put in with dealing with students and dealing with their parents? It’s a constant drain on their time that then has to be made up on evenings and weekends. Add to that the massive amount of paperwork, inspections and documentation etc they have nearly a full time job before every actually doing any teaching, preparation and correcting.
    Another myth. Teachers don't have to have any contact withe pupils outside class hours and if the occasional parent turns up it is most likely one or two a term.Secretaries of clubs and politicians are often teachers because they have so much free time.
    Lana Black Conduit wrote: »
    Also I don’t think people who have never taught understand how intense and tiring it is. I’ve done a bit of lecturing and 2 or 3 hours of lectures/teaching in a day would tire you out more than a full day’s work in the lab/office. When you are teaching you have to give your 100% attention constantly. Not taking a break for a chat or a cup of tea when ever you feel like it, browsing the web, going for a walk around the office to unwind a bit, sending a few texts etc etc all things I do during the day in what would be considered a very hard and very highly skilled job.

    Just because you don't have much stamina doesn't mean that teaching is a hard job. A bus driver can't just stop for tea or browse the web when he feels like it. A teacher can just tell a class to do some exercise and they can they play with their phone or read a newspaper if they fell like it. As for preparation, they are supposed to know their subject so what preparation is needed? They do the correction for one class while they are supposed to be teaching another.
    I am not fooled.


  • #345
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,102 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Troll is very obvious. Subtlety is key.


  • #346
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    Emotional blackmail. Parents should teach children to read and then they can learn what they want from books or the internet. Teachers have managed to create this alternative universe where everybody has to go to school so they can keep their jobs and pensions.

    Well despite what it says in the constitution, parents I observe arent teaching their kids. The kid does a lame attempt at home work and the parent fixes it before class. Therefore the kid does n't make a mistake, does feel shame for a poor effort. The kid is 10 now. Very soon at 13 the childs learning will eclipse his mothers knowledge. She cannot do Trig, chemistry, functions of the body or anything more than basic bookkeeping. Then the tales will be told.


  • #347
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Naos wrote: »

    A teacher with 30 years experience, how many of those have they actively been trying to better themselves?

    My Biology/Chem teacher is a PhD formerly of the Pharmaceutical industry. Every two months she is at a weekend conference at UCD. One of those teachers trully worth their salt.


  • #348
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Well despite what it says in the constitution, parents I observe arent teaching their kids. The kid does a lame attempt at home work and the parent fixes it before class. Therefore the kid does n't make a mistake, does feel shame for a poor effort. The kid is 10 now. Very soon at 13 the childs learning will eclipse his mothers knowledge. She cannot do Trig, chemistry, functions of the body or anything more than basic bookkeeping. Then the tales will be told.

    Did the mother go to school herself? Doesn't say much for her teachers if that is the case. Anyway she is obliged by law to send her child to school. Now you want her to do the teachers job? It is win, win for the teachers on planet teacher.


  • #349
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Geuze wrote: »
    I suspect this is a lecturer in an IoT.

    To get 90k, you would have to be an SL Senior Lecturer.

    There are very few of these.

    Most people we think of lecturers are in fact "Assistant Lecturers". The jobs that should be done by "Assistant Lecturers" are in fact outsourced to PhD students (lab supervision) because "They are getting experience" (i.e. we are too tight to pay them a proper salary)


  • #350
    mvl
    Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭mvl


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    My Biology/Chem teacher is a PhD formerly of the Pharmaceutical industry. Every two months she is at a weekend conference at UCD. One of those teachers trully worth their salt.

    Yes, agreed, and it is a nice career model (swinging between private/public sector I mean).

    Did I not read that Ireland does pay the academic staff quite well actually ?
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/universities-get-green-light-for-salaries-over-335-000-1.3423233

    So, going back to OP, I wouldn't think such profiles would be complaining about the housing affordability anywhere in Ireland.


  • #351
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,041 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    We changed to a 38 hr week a while back......but sure what do you do after wednesday :D


  • Advertisement
  • #352
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,647 ✭[Deleted User]


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    The law is that people have to attend school between certain ages, not that they stay at school until they achieve any standard. Who got that law brought in? Teachers! For whose benefit? Teachers! Who is repsonsible for the fact that there are illiterate teenagers?

    What are you raving about, mate?


  • #353
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    mvl wrote: »
    Yes, agreed, and it is a nice career model (swinging between private/public sector I mean).

    Did I not read that Ireland does pay the academic staff quite well actually ?
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/universities-get-green-light-for-salaries-over-335-000-1.3423233
    .

    They pay well for senior positions but it’s very hard to even get a permenant position in a university or IT in Ireland and even if you do it’s a long road to getting to a senior position and these places are limited.

    It’s very very hard now for universities to attract talented researchers, I’ve seen it first had. The pay is rubbish compared to what can be got in industry and you get kicked out after a few years anyway as they get away with murder with regards employment law and skirt around making people permenant by pretending their is no work for them and then laying them off when they finished training in a new person to take over from them.

    Also as far as the pay for the senior acedimic staff being good the fact is people in these well paid positions would be earning multiples of it in industry in a position requiring a similar level of qualification, ability and experience. A senior lecturer might be on 80k at the age of 50 but a fairly run of the mill project manager in IT could be on 80k at age 35 and the positions are not really compatible so it really shows the pay isn’t all that good really.

    There needs to be a serious upping if salaries for researchers in universities, much better career progression and permenant positions available.

    *also I’d just add that the main role of a lecturer in a university is research not teaching. They may only have a few hours a week teaching but they will have large amounts of research work.


  • #354
    j8wk2feszrnpao
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    Lana Black Conduit wrote: »
    Also I don’t think people who have never taught understand how intense and tiring it is. I’ve done a bit of lecturing and 2 or 3 hours of lectures/teaching in a day would tire you out more than a full day’s work in the lab/office.
    That probably says more about you.

    I've trained new staff members, done 3-4 hrs a day, along with my regular duties. No extra pay, just part of the job. You get on with it.
    Anyone asking for sympathy for those getting good pay, for 8 months work in the year... jog on.

    As for the original premise for special allowances for public-sector workers.... also jog on. Everyone pays into public funding, not just one sector.


  • #355
    zl1whqvjs75cdy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,042 ✭✭✭zl1whqvjs75cdy


    munstermagic11 wrote: »
    That probably says more about you.

    I've trained new staff members, done 3-4 hrs a day, along with my regular duties. No extra pay, just part of the job. You get on with it.
    Anyone asking for sympathy for those getting good pay, for 8 months work in the year... jog on.

    As for the original premise for special allowances for public-sector workers.... also jog on. Everyone pays into public funding, not just one sector.

    Tbf I'd normally disagree with nox on most things but there's a world of difference between training in a new colleague and trying to keep 30 students on track and safe for a 3 to 4 hour lab session.


  • #356
    j8wk2feszrnpao
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »
    Tbf I'd normally disagree with nox on most things but there's a world of difference between training in a new colleague and trying to keep 30 students on track and safe for a 3 to 4 hour lab session.
    If 2/3 hours a day is more tiring that a full days work, then you aren't cut out for the job.


  • #357
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Interesting that you're both under the impression that public sector employees paying the Pension Related Deduction (to be made permanent and renamed the ASC from January 2019) of 10.5% on top of PAYE/USC/PRSI etc means they are putting that money into their pension. They are doing no such thing, despite the misnomer. It all goes into a general government tax pot:

    gas thing about it is they'd be the first to tell you "you dont pay for your pension it comes out of TAX"

    its just hilarious once you start to understand the mentality. decent public service package oh so unfair, decent private sector package oh earned on its competitive merits!

    complete mental ruts. why would you engage to lift anyone out of that if you didnt have to.


  • #358
    mvl
    Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭mvl


    Just looking at my OTHER (than AH) news feeds - thought this is very good to add here:
    http://uk.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-says-80-hours-per-week-needed-change-the-world-2018-11

    Now what EMusk is talking about is simple: "There are way easier places to work, but nobody ever changed the world on 40 hours a week", I would think for here, we can say individuals may need to work longer hours to change what needs changing.
    Instead of complaining, maybe sometimes working more than a normal job's hours can help getting higher income, for whoever feels they don't have enough.

    I am only hoping the government fast tracks the investments in the public transport infrastructure: high speed rail could bring public workers from distant routes to Dublin in easy time to commute, problem can be solved that way.


  • #359
    engiweirdo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭engiweirdo


    Musk is a product of his warped US coporatist environment. He actually sees himself as akin to Henry Ford, especially with the Model X,Y,Z names for the cars but is worlds apart. Ford was a great engineer and capitalist but saw the value of better pay and less working hours for his employees.

    The work all the hours of the day mentality is a sickness that is seeping in from the poor saps reared in modern day high waged slavery in the US. Really ieks me to see companies here promote and engage in this behavilur when we have better functioning models east of us in Europe we should be following instead.


  • #360
    mvl
    Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭mvl


    engiweirdo wrote: »
    Musk is a product of his warped US coporatist environment. He actually sees himself as akin to Henry Ford, especially with the Model X,Y,Z names for the cars but is worlds apart. Ford was a great engineer and capitalist but saw the value of better pay and less working hours for his employees.

    The work all the hours of the day mentality is a sickness that is seeping in from the poor saps reared in modern day high waged slavery in the US. Really ieks me to see companies here promote and engage in this behavilur when we have better functioning models east of us in Europe we should be following instead.

    I get how Musk is not liked - there was a thread about him. That work style is extreme for me also.

    But I can still use this as an example of what some can do instead of complaining they don't get paid enough.

    IMO, the real problem that needs fixing here is with the transport infrastructure. Not everybody that works in the city must live/rent/buy in the city.


  • Advertisement
  • #361
    j8wk2feszrnpao
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    engiweirdo wrote: »
    Ford was a great engineer and capitalist but saw the value of better pay and less working hours for his employees.
    Ford was a truly horrible person. The better wages and less hours were due to the incredible turnover of workers because of horrendous working conditions.


Advertisement