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Abdur Rashid refuses to apologise to 6 year old that he abused.

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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    It is entirely justifiable to debate this case. What's not so easily justified is framing the debate on the basis that the defendant is a rapist, and the sentence should be one appropriate to rape. The defendant wasn't accused of, charged with, or convicted of rape; he couldn't possibly be sentenced for rape.

    And, when the response from the OP when this is pointed out is, basically, "I don't care", this ceases to be a debate about whether the sentence in this case is appropriate or not. What the OP actually wants to debate is, seemingly, the appropriate sentence for rape, not the appropriate sentence in this case.

    My point is that to some people the race and religion of the accused is far more important than the actual crime committed and that they are far more outraged about that than the actual crime.


  • Registered Users Posts: 262 ✭✭ Spleerbun


    My point is that to some people the race and religion of the accused is far more important than the actual crime committed and that they are far more outraged about that than the actual crime.

    Equally there's the other side who are so desperate to defend someone's religion that they will go out of their way to side track and trivialise any debate on the subject. Goes both ways. Luckily this thread doesn't need to be about that subject as this guy is enough of a scumbag that he should bring us all together in our condemnation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    My point is that to some people the race and religion of the accused is far more important than the actual crime committed and that they are far more outraged about that than the actual crime.
    I get that. But the OP mentions neither the offender's race, nor his religion, nor his crime. Instead, it mentions an entirely different crime, which looks strikingly like an attempt not so much to engage in justifiable debate about the case as to poison the well at the outsetm by framing the discussion in misleading terms. And while the OP does say several times that he is unconcerned with the offender's race or skin colour, he does say, in post #15, that he thinks the OP should be deported, which I think is something that wouldn't even come up but for the defendant's non-Irish background.

    But, yeah, I think the OP's anger is mainly directed not at foreigners but at sex offenders. But the gist of his position seems to be that sexual assaults should be punished as if they were rapes. But he doesn't offer any reason why this should be so, and it's kind of difficult to debate a position for which no arguments are offered.

    And the fact that the offender is an immigrant and a Muslim does muddy the waters still further because, while the OP is not really interested in this feature of the case, as you point out several other posters seem to attach considerable significance to it.

    So, all in all, not a very promising attempt at a debate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,873 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Why are you picking on the Muslim rapists and not the Irish ones? this is so racist


    That's the third time that joke has been made in anticipation of someone making the point seriously.

    I think it's worth pointing out that nobody has actually raised a racist angle to thy story except some clown aaying Leo is a Muslim, hence a lenient sentence for a fellow Muslim (this is so stupid it might be ironic, apologies if this is the case)

    The funny thing is that the story is about how he didn't apologise to the girl when ambushed by journalist outside the prison. Why would anyone think that's a good time to make an unprepared statement?


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,392 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    That's the third time that joke has been made in anticipation of someone making the point seriously.

    I think it's worth pointing out that nobody has actually raised a racist angle to thy story except some clown aaying Leo is a Muslim, hence a lenient sentence for a fellow Muslim (this is so stupid it might be ironic, apologies if this is the case)

    The funny thing is that the story is about how he didn't apologise to the girl when ambushed by journalist outside the prison. Why would anyone think that's a good time to make an unprepared statement?


    How did the journalist know he was leaving the prison?


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,856 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    Its nothing to do with race, this fella will abuse again 100%. 10 months for raping a child, how are people standing for this?

    The may aswell have invited him to target more kids.

    He didn't rape a child. Not according to the article you linked...unless I missed it?

    Edit...sorry just got to page 2 and see this was already straightened out :o


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,873 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09




    That is the right question to answer. Are sentences for rape overtly lenient? Especially against children?
    How is the conviction rate? How does Ireland compare to other countries?
    Discussions about the man's race or religion are entirely irrelevant from a legal standpoint, since those are not taken into account.
    It's entirely justified to debate the case, but "shure de Muslims!"

    Fair questions but it also makes sense to ask what's the difference in outcome between different sentences.

    To any normal person the knowledge that you harmed a child would be a big punishment. Plus the stigma of the community knowing what you are. The difference between 10 months and 18 months in prison would be a minor consideration compared to the entire life afterwards.

    If time in prison was directly correlated with reduction in recidivism then sentences should be benchmarked accordingly. But I don't think that's the case. If prison is just to warehouse prisoners for a few months or years then it's arbitrary anyway so one sentence is similar to another.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,873 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    kneemos wrote: »
    That's the third time that joke has been made in anticipation of someone making the point seriously.

    I think it's worth pointing out that nobody has actually raised a racist angle to thy story except some clown aaying Leo is a Muslim, hence a lenient sentence for a fellow Muslim (this is so stupid it might be ironic, apologies if this is the case)

    The funny thing is that the story is about how he didn't apologise to the girl when ambushed by journalist outside the prison. Why would anyone think that's a good time to make an unprepared statement?


    How did the journalist know he was leaving the prison?

    I don't know how these things work. Call the prison and ask whose being released today? Bribe a prison officer?

    What's that got to do with the post you quoted


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,392 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    I don't know how these things work. Call the prison and ask whose being released today? Bribe a prison officer?

    What's that got to do with the post you quoted


    Just wondering if prison officers are getting back handers for info?

    Responding to points of interest brought up in previous posts is how this whole thing works.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Dirty f*cking nonce case should have been banged up for ten years minimum.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Mike9832 wrote: »
    Why is he not being deported back to his **** hole?

    What do ye expect when we have a Muslim leader

    He’s an Irish citizen? Who’s the Muslim leader , Obama?


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    kneemos wrote: »
    How did the journalist know he was leaving the prison?
    Prison officers would tip them off. Probably give their favourite journalist a schedule of releases every morning.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,495 ✭✭✭Will I Am Not


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    He is not. Nor is he from a Muslim background.

    He himself is not religious. His mother is a Catholic. His father is a Hindu from a Parsee background. But these are the kind of subtle distinctions that escape Islamophobes, to whom everybody with any degree of non-white background is a Muslim.

    In his own words he was teaching the girl an Islamic ritual... in a mosque... It’s hardly a wild jump to a conclusion in this case.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    In his own words he was teaching the girl an Islamic ritual... in a mosque... It’s hardly a wild jump to a conclusion in this case.
    The claim was not that the offender was a Muslim; this is undisputed. The claim was that the offender isn't being deported because "we have a Muslim leader", i.e. Varadkar.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭ Aydin Shy Mumps


    The Herald selectively report things so they have the most dramatic story. Here is a report on it from the Irish Times

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/teacher-gets-suspended-sentence-for-sex-assault-at-dublin-mosque-1.3703130?mode=amp

    The judge accepted a report that he was schizophrenic and delusional. There was a further report that said he wasn't. I'm not clear on whether they conflict or refer to dufferent times. It doesn't say if he is being treated for schizophrenia.

    Also they said him being Bangladeshi would make prison more difficult, and he had a family.

    I didn't see whether he will be able to continue his career teaching children. I would assume no, but if he is then that is the most outrageous thing of all.

    I don't see how any of this makes him less dangerous, or how it is reasonable to accept as mitigating factors.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,482 ✭✭✭Allinall


    Jaysus lads.

    Peregrinus is responding to the knob head who said Leo is a Muslim .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭ Aydin Shy Mumps


    I reckon being a child molestor is more likely to cause someone a difficult time in prison than being from Bangladesh.


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    The judge accepted a report that he was schizophrenic and delusional. There was a further report that said he wasn't. I'm not clear on whether they conflict or refer to dufferent times. It doesn't say if he is being treated for schizophrenia.
    He's not being treated.
    It's mealy-mouthed, but the below paragraph isn't actually contradictory
    The court heard that a psychological report stated that Rashid currently meets the diagnostic criteria for schziophrenia and delusional disorder and is psychologically vulnerable. A further psychiatric report indicated that at present he is not suffering from a psychiatric illness.
    "Meets the diagnostic criteria" is a bit of a long-winded way of saying that he hasn't been diagnosed.
    "at present he is not suffering", is saying that he's OK right now.

    So he's of a stable mind at present, but long-term he meets the criteria for a schizophrenia diagnosis.
    I didn't see whether he will be able to continue his career teaching children. I would assume no, but if he is then that is the most outrageous thing of all.
    He will fail Garda vetting, so there's no way he'll be able to get employment with young or vulnerable people again.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Allinall wrote: »
    Jaysus lads.

    Peregrinus is responding to the knob head who said Leo is a Muslim .

    Yeh I get that now. That guy was a total loon.

    Who the Fcuk thinks Leo is a Muslim. Most of the time I forget he isn’t white.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The Herald selectively report things so they have the most dramatic story. Here is a report on it from the Irish Times

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/teacher-gets-suspended-sentence-for-sex-assault-at-dublin-mosque-1.3703130?mode=amp

    The judge accepted a report that he was schizophrenic and delusional. There was a further report that said he wasn't. I'm not clear on whether they conflict or refer to dufferent times. It doesn't say if he is being treated for schizophrenia.

    Also they said him being Bangladeshi would make prison more difficult, and he had a family.

    I didn't see whether he will be able to continue his career teaching children. I would assume no, but if he is then that is the most outrageous thing of all.

    I don't see how any of this makes him less dangerous, or how it is reasonable to accept as mitigating factors.
    I don't think he has a "career as a teacher"; from the newspaper report, he works as a chef. He's described as "a teacher in a Dublin mosque", but I think this was a voluntary, part-time thing, in the equivalent of a Sunday school. Like you, I assume that particular gig is permanently up. (None of the reporting of this has suggested that the mosque authorities were obstructive, unhelpful or in any kind of denial. Unlike some denominations that we could think of.)

    Coverage of the psychological/psychiatric reports is confusing, I agree. And what's completely missing from the reports is any opinion expressed in the reports as to whether he poses a future risk, or whether any risk can be or is being managed through engagement with treatment services. These would certainly be relevant considerations in sentencing.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭ Aydin Shy Mumps


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    I don't think he has a "career as a teacher"; from the newspaper report, he works as a chef. He's described as "a teacher in a Dublin mosque", but I think this was a voluntary, part-time thing, in the equivalent of a Sunday school. Like you, I assume that particular gig is permanently up. (None of the reporting of this has suggested that the mosque authorities were obstructive, unhelpful or in any kind of denial. Unlike some denominations that we could think of.)

    Coverage of the psychological/psychiatric reports is confusing, I agree. And what's completely missing from the reports is any opinion expressed in the reports as to whether he poses a future risk, or whether any risk can be or is being managed through engagement with treatment services. These would certainly be relevant considerations in sentencing.
    I doubt he is engaging with treatment. He denies doing anything. I extrapolate from that that he doesn't accept any diagnosis.

    If the act was realted to schizophrenia, you'd think that he would be monitored, and be committed if he starts heading into a state where he might do something like this. However mental health services in Ireland only seem to activate at crisis point so I doubt this is the case.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I doubt he is engaging with treatment. He denies doing anything. I extrapolate from that that he doesn't accept any diagnosis.
    That thought occurred to me too. If he's basically in denial about what he has done, this doesn't bode well for his engagement with support services.

    On the other hand, what he says to a journalist when ambushed in the street in stressful circumstances by media that he will presume to be hostile and what he says to his family, his doctor or his counsellors are not necessarily the same thing. Plus, of course, whatever he said to journalists on release can't have been a factor in sentencing; he hadn't said it then.
    If the act was realted to schizophrenia, you'd think that he would be monitored, and be committed if he starts heading into a state where he might do something like this. However mental health services in Ireland only seem to activate at crisis point so I doubt this is the case.
    We don't know what mental health treatment or support the guy is getting. People suffering from schizophrenia rarely present a threat to others - they are much more likely to present a threat to themselves. It would be unusual for somebody with schizophrenia to be sectioned, thought it does happen. Realistically, it won't happen unless (at the very least) he or someone very close to him seeks it (and, even then, only if the medics agree).

    Note that he is still subject to supervision by the probation services while the suspended part of his sentence is served. Vengeance fantasies notwithstanding, in terms of community protection there is value to a part-suspension of a sentence, so that the offender's transition to community services can be monitored, managed and, if necessary, enforced. This is particularly important if he does have mental health issues that are contributing to his offending behaviour.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,181 ✭✭✭CinemaGuy45


    Its nothing to do with race, this fella will abuse again 100%. 10 months for raping a child, how are people standing for this?

    The may aswell have invited him to target more kids.

    Well they have really.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,131 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    The Gardai will be watching him very closely (including his internet traffic). One small slip up, if he sneezes the wrong way, id say he be brought in.

    Fcuk Putin. Glory to Ukraine!



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,737 ✭✭✭Yer Da sells Avon


    He’s an Irish citizen? Who’s the Muslim leader , Obama?

    Leo Hussein Varadkar.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭ Aydin Shy Mumps


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    That thought occurred to me too. If he's basically in denial about what he has done, this doesn't bode well for his engagement with support services.

    On the other hand, what he says to a journalist when ambushed in the street in stressful circumstances by media that he will presume to be hostile and what he says to his family, his doctor or his counsellors are not necessarily the same thing. Plus, of course, whatever he said to journalists on release can't have been a factor in sentencing; he hadn't said it then.


    We don't know what mental health treatment or support the guy is getting. People suffering from schizophrenia rarely present a threat to others - they are much more likely to present a threat to themselves. It would be unusual for somebody with schizophrenia to be sectioned, thought it does happen. Realistically, it won't happen unless (at the very least) he or someone very close to him seeks it (and, even then, only if the medics agree).

    Note that he is still subject to supervision by the probation services while the suspended part of his sentence is served. Vengeance fantasies notwithstanding, in terms of community protection there is value to a part-suspension of a sentence, so that the offender's transition to community services can be monitored, managed and, if necessary, enforced. This is particularly important if he does have mental health issues that are contributing to his offending behaviour.
    If his schizophrenia was a factor in him molesting a child, then his specific case of schizophrenia does present a risk to others. If his schizophrenia was not a factor then I disagree with it being accepted as a mitigating factor.

    Slightly off topic, but being a danger to yourself is sufficient grounds for sectioning, you don't have to be a threat to others as well.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,859 ✭✭✭malinheader


    The Gardai will be watching him very closely (including his internet traffic). One small slip up, if he sneezes the wrong way, id say he be brought in.

    Sadly couldn't be further from the truth. Garda resources that badly stretched they might not even know he's out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    If his schizophrenia was a factor in him molesting a child, then his specific case of schizophrenia does present a risk to others. If his schizophrenia was not a factor then I disagree with it being accepted as a mitigating factor.
    But if it was his undiagnosed, untreated schizophrenia which contributed to the offence then, yes, it's a factor that mitigates in sentencing, since it reduces his personal culpability and it suggests that risk to the community may be mitigated by diagnosis/treatment.

    I think we agree that the newspaper reports of the psych reports are confusing, but one possible reading of this. . .
    The court heard that a psychological report stated that Rashid currently meets the diagnostic criteria for schziophrenia and delusional disorder and is psychologically vulnerable. A further psychiatric report indicated that at present he is not suffering from a psychiatric illness.

    . . . is that, as a result of the diagnosis made in the first report, Rashid has received treatment which means that although still "psychologically vulnerable", he's not now "sufferingfrom a psychiatric illness".

    (It's also worth pointing out that, if mental health issues are part of what's at the root of his offending, then in terms of risk to the community the longer he spends in prison the worse, since prison is not a place conducive to good or improved mental health.)
    Slightly off topic, but being a danger to yourself is sufficient grounds for sectioning, you don't have to be a threat to others as well.
    Also slightly off-topic: Yes, I know.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭ Aydin Shy Mumps


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    But if it was his undiagnosed, untreated schizophrenia which contributed to the offence then, yes, it's a factor that mitigates in sentencing, since it reduces his personal culpability and it suggests that risk to the community may be mitigated by diagnosis/treatment.

    I think we agree that the newspaper reports of the psych reports are confusing, but one possible reading of this. . .



    . . . is that, as a result of the diagnosis made in the first report, Rashid has received treatment which means that although still "psychologically vulnerable", he's not now "sufferingfrom a psychiatric illness".

    (It's also worth pointing out that, if mental health issues are part of what's at the root of his offending, then in terms of risk to the community the longer he spends in prison the worse, since prison is not a place conducive to good or improved mental health.)


    Also slightly off-topic: Yes, I know.
    Yes it occurred to me that he's unlikely to have stabilised after being convicted of a heinous crime and imprisoned for it unless there was significant intervention. For all we know he is on high doses of haliperidol, in which case I doubt he's a threat to anybody right now. Cheaper than keeping him in prison too.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭ Aydin Shy Mumps


    Yes it occurred to me that he's unlikely to have stabilised after being convicted of a heinous crime and imprisoned for it unless there was significant intervention. For all we know he is on high doses of haliperidol, in which case I doubt he's a threat to anybody right now. Cheaper than keeping him in prison too.
    Those psych reports do seem contradictary since schizophrenics don't stop being schizophrenic afaik, regardless of how long they might stay stable for following an episode. I guess the overall conclusion was that he is at risk of developing it, and seems to have had some sort of psychotic episode.


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