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End of #metoo

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Comments

  • #302
    leggo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    You don't know none of them will accuse you. You just presume they won't. Same way a women who goes home to a mans house presumes he won't rape her. And the vast majority of the time the accusation/rape doesn't happen, but it can. You dont need to change anything you do necessarily, but don't be so naive at the same time.
    Also you don't know if you've been creepy or not, it's a subjective thing. This is what is what seemingly worries people. Neill DeGrasse Tyson lifted up a womens sleeve to look at her tattoo, which has now led to him being accused of sexual assault (amongst other accusations). I'd imagine he didn't think himself creep doing that.

    Then they’re giving themselves anxiety over nothing, if they’ve done nothing. If someone put up an accusation naming me, I’d be happy to cooperate fully knowing everything was above board. If they named me publicly on Twitter or the likes, we’d be off to court to clear my good name. And I’d be successful and fine in doing both because by law you still need evidence to back up an accusation and there would be none. If some strangers decided in the meantime to judge me, **** them, I’m not a small enough human to be bothered by that. Those that know me and matter would know something wasn’t right immediately. It’d have little to no affect on my job, my family, my friends, my relationship or the amount of sleep I get at night. It’d just be a weird thing that happened to me one time. Certainly nothing to freak out on boards.ie in anticipation of.

    Also why do people act like creepy is this obscure, subjective thing? I work in an environment where creepiness is sadly an everyday occurrence (hence me coming out so strongly on the side I’m on) and it’s VERY easy to spot the line, it’s also easy to spot that lads are fully aware that what they’re doing is wrong as they typically stop as soon as they notice another man is watching them. I saw the NDGT story and I personally lean more towards believing his Facebook account of things, but still think he’s a bit of a tool for what he confessed to. As a celebrity, he should’ve known better to put his hands on someone without consent, as at the very least they could alledge something for a bit of cash. He probably knew this, but also felt that because he’s a celebrity the fan would be ‘honoured’ to have him touch her arm. So it’s his own hubris that led to that and he’s learned better now. Don’t have him lose work or be blacklisted, that’s heavy-handed, just cop on Neil and think in future.

    Why do people find that hard to understand? Do you guys just go around touching and stroking and grabbing people’s arms all day? Don’t touch people unless you know for certain they want to be touched! It’s not complicated and it’s not difficult!


  • #303
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    professore wrote: »
    I said I don't worry about it.
    What is it with some people ... have you never been in a situation where someone tried to completely screw you over? It's happened to me several times - not with sexual harassment, but the kind of people that screw people over would have no compunction about something like that, where money is involved especially. Practically the whole business world operates like this at times, and it's gender neutral.


    Rather than accept that maybe sexual harrasment is commonplace and widespread, you chose to imagine a scenario in which someone lies about being sexually harrassed to 'win' a promotion - a scenario which is just... beyond implausible if you've done any research into how complaints about harrassment in the workplace are generally dealt with.

    Why?

    (also when people try to screw other people over, they tend to do so in as easy a way as possible, not the hardest.)


  • #304
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    What a stupid way to go through life. a life of fear and ignorance.

    For the average man yes. Not particularly so if you are a politician, especially a Republican one.


  • #305
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,122 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    For the average man yes. Not particularly so if you are a politician, especially a Republican one.


    Is his approach common among politicians? i dont think it is. I think the guy has some deep rooted issues with women. Who else calls their wife 'mother' in public?


  • #306
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    leggo wrote: »
    Happy to have any and all posts addressed, just like you were able to here. It’s just mad how those who are against an anti-rape movement couldn’t respect one request in one post not to do one thing. Is that a character trait I see emerging??

    No it isn't. And btw it is an anti-sexual assault and anti-sexual harassment movement. It's much broader than just rape.


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  • #307
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    leggo wrote: »
    Then they’re giving themselves anxiety over nothing, if they’ve done nothing. If someone put up an accusation naming me, I’d be happy to cooperate fully knowing everything was above board. If they named me publicly on Twitter or the likes, we’d be off to court to clear my good name. And I’d be successful and fine in doing both because by law you still need evidence to back up an accusation and there would be none. If some strangers decided in the meantime to judge me, **** them, I’m not a small enough human to be bothered by that. Those that know me and matter would know something wasn’t right immediately. It’d have little to no affect on my job, my family, my friends, my relationship or the amount of sleep I get at night. It’d just be a weird thing that happened to me one time. Certainly nothing to freak out on boards.ie in anticipation of.

    Why do you find it hard to understand that men have lost their jobs and careers on the back of sexual assault allegations? Or even on the accusation of just being sexist, remember that botanist from a few years ago. There's also this guy https://quillette.com/2018/09/25/how-an-anonymous-accusation-derailed-my-life/ .Or google Steven Galloway. And there are more stories like it. Now one thing that most of these men have in common is the fields in which they work (academia and the media). However it could potentially spill over into "real" life.

    leggo wrote: »
    Also why do people act like creepy is this obscure, subjective thing? I work in an environment where creepiness is sadly an everyday occurrence (hence me coming out so strongly on the side I’m on) and it’s VERY easy to spot the line, it’s also easy to spot that lads are fully aware that what they’re doing is wrong as they typically stop as soon as they notice another man is watching them. I saw the NDGT story and I personally lean more towards believing his Facebook account of things, but still think he’s a bit of a tool for what he confessed to. As a celebrity, he should’ve known better to put his hands on someone without consent, as at the very least they could alledge something for a bit of cash. He probably knew this, but also felt that because he’s a celebrity the fan would be ‘honoured’ to have him touch her arm. So it’s his own hubris that led to that and he’s learned better now. Don’t have him lose work or be blacklisted, that’s heavy-handed, just cop on Neil and think in future.
    Because it is subjective, and there is a very good chance it cause him to lose work/be blacklisted.
    leggo wrote: »
    Why do people find that hard to understand? Do you guys just go around touching and stroking and grabbing people’s arms all day? Don’t touch people unless you know for certain they want to be touched! It’s not complicated and it’s not difficult!

    Whats hard to understand is how touching someones arm is now considered sexual assault.
    .


  • #308
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    Is his approach common among politicians? i dont think it is. I think the guy has some deep rooted issues with women. Who else calls their wife 'mother' in public?

    It will be in the future, at least in America, if we continue on the current trajectory.


  • #309
    Reviews and Books Galore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Reviews and Books Galore


    leggo wrote: »
    Happy to have any and all posts addressed, just like you were able to here. It’s just mad how those who are against an anti-rape movement couldn’t respect one request in one post not to do one thing. Is that a character trait I see emerging??

    Have you just implied that the people replying may not take no for an answer in a sexual situation?


  • #310
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    DanDan6592 wrote: »

    Whats hard to understand is how touching someones arm is now considered sexual assault.
    .

    Was it not that he followed her tattoo all the way up her arm and under the shoulder strap of her dress and up to her neck ?
    A hand going underneath your clothing no matter how briefly I think is a bit more than lightly touching someone's arm.


  • #311
    Chris_Heilong
    Registered Users Posts: 4,973 ✭✭✭Chris_Heilong


    End of #metoo

    Hops so, it was an effective weapon against those in power in hollywood and a wake up call for those producers who were praying on young actors/actresses who would do anything to get into the industry however it has also been used as a weapon by those who wish to wield it against men in general and it is for this reason it needs to die out.


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  • #312
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    Mrsmum wrote: »
    Was it not that he followed her tattoo all the way up her arm and under the shoulder strap of her dress and up to her neck ?
    A hand going underneath your clothing no matter how briefly I think is a bit more than lightly touching someone's arm.

    Would you consider that sexual assault?


  • #313
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    nullzero wrote: »
    What does that mean?
    Should false rape accusations be entertained because real rape also occurs?

    Until they are found to be false.
    If some backward folk think there is such a thing as 'asking for it', then they'd likely have a different bar set for what is rape than any victim would.


  • #314
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    Would you consider that sexual assault?
    See I think you described it in the lightest way possible. No I don't think he should put his hand under her collar, do you ? I had a teacher at school when I was in National school. He would stand behind you, put his hands around your neck and put his two thumbs at the back under the girls collars. It was the lightest touch ever but I can assure you all the girls didn't like it one bit.


  • #315
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    Mrsmum wrote: »
    See I think you described it in the lightest way possible. No I don't think he should put his hand under her collar, do you ? I had a teacher at school when I was in National school. He would stand behind you, put his hands around your neck and put his two thumbs at the back under the girls collars. It was the lightest touch ever but I can assure you all the girls didn't like it one bit.

    I didn't describe it as lightly touching either though. Regardless you didn't answer my question. Would you consider it sexual assault?

    Neill DeGrasse wasn't touching a child. I fail to see the relevence of that story with all due respect.


  • #316
    nullzero
    Registered Users Posts: 16,349 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Until they are found to be false.
    If some backward folk think there is such a thing as 'asking for it', then they'd likely have a different bar set for what is rape than any victim would.

    There needs to be protection of defendants identity as well as the plaintiff in that case.
    The asking for it argument is surely set for the Bin by now.

    Glazers Out!



  • #317
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    I didn't describe it as lightly touching either though. Regardless you didn't answer my question. Would you consider it sexual assault?

    Neill DeGrasse wasn't touching a child. I fail to see the relevence of that story with all due respect.

    I don't think he should be charged with sexual assault but I think he and the general male population should cop on and realise that this is not just nothing. Have you any idea how sick and tired women are of having to excuse or tell off these guys the whole time. Just because it's not an assault doesn't mean it's not creepy and imo if the metoo movement gets people to check their behaviour that would be a good thing. The relevance of my story is just that an unwelcome touch is an unwelcome touch no matter what age one is. Who am I to say that woman didn't feel as uncomfortable as I did in the moment.

    Btw you didn't answer my question either. Do you think it was ok for him to put his hand under the collar of her dress ?


  • #318
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    Mrsmum wrote: »
    I don't think he should be charged with sexual assault but I think he and the general male population should cop on and realise that this is not just nothing. Have you any idea how sick and tired women are of having to excuse or tell off these guys the whole time. Just because it's not an assault doesn't mean it's not creepy and imo if the metoo movement gets people to check their behaviour that would be a good thing. The relevance of my story is just that an unwelcome touch is an unwelcome touch no matter what age one is. Who am I to say that woman didn't feel as uncomfortable as I did in the moment.

    Btw you didn't answer my question either. Do you think it was ok for him to put his hand under the collar of her dress ?

    You seemingly missed the whole point of what I was saying then, as I was suggesting that him being accused of sexual assault for doing what he did is ridiculous i.e. the #metoo movement has over the last couple of years lost the plot.

    Apologies I missed your question. No I don't think it's right, but it's not sexual harassment either, which is what it is being presented as ergo my above statement. Most men don't do these things, the same way not every woman is a walking emotional rollercoaster. So your comment about the "general male population" is completely misplaced.


  • #319
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    It will be in the future, at least in America, if we continue on the current trajectory.

    And what makes you think that? Trump has a list of accusers, he was taped suggesting assault and he was still voted into the office. All it proves is that assault accusations are completely ignored and people are voted into the office anyway. If anything it showed women how they should stay quiet because nothing will change.

    And as an example of a man who was hard done you an example Goggle exec who left with 200 million (or something like that) pay cheque.


  • #320
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    You seemingly missed the whole point of what I was saying then, as I was suggesting that him being accused of sexual assault for doing what he did is ridiculous i.e. the #metoo movement has over the last couple of years lost the plot.

    Apologies I missed your question. No I don't think it's right, but it's not sexual harassment either, which is what it is being presented as ergo my above statement. Most men don't do these things, the same way not every woman is a walking emotional rollercoaster. So your comment about the "general male population" is completely misplaced.

    I haven't seen it reported that he is accused of sexual assault over this incident but rather accused of sexual misconduct which fits the bill better imo.

    You say most men don't do these things, Yet most women have numerous stories of these things done and said to them so I guess it's just that some men are incredibly busy.


  • #321
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    Mrsmum wrote: »
    I haven't seen it reported that he is accused of sexual assault over this incident but rather accused of sexual misconduct which fits the bill better imo.


    But it's only sexual misconduct if there was a sexual element to it, which he denies. She even says herself that he was looking for pluto on her arm.
    “After we had taken the picture, he noticed my tattoo and kind of grabbed me to look at it, and was really obsessed about whether I had Pluto on this tattoo or not … and then he looked for Pluto, and followed the tattoo into my dress,” Allers said.

    Weird yes. Made her feel uncomfortable? Seemingly. But in this new #metoo world it's instantly assumed he was doing this for sexual reasons, as opposed to just being a complete nerd.

    Some newsoutlets headlined the story as Sexual Assault but withing the story would talk about sexual misconduct. So fair enough on that point. There is however an attempt to blur the lines between sexual assault and the "lesser crime" of sexual misconduct


    [/QUOTE]You say most men don't do these things, Yet most women have numerous stories of these things done and said to them so I guess it's just that some men are incredibly busy.[/QUOTE]

    "saying" something to someone is not the same as physically touching someone. Regardless, most people have stories like these, both men and women. Noone is really interested in hearing mens stories. And I'm not complaining, just stating it how it is.


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  • #322
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    meeeeh wrote: »
    And what makes you think that? Trump has a list of accusers, he was taped suggesting assault and he was still voted into the office. All it proves is that assault accusations are completely ignored and people are voted into the office anyway. If anything it showed women how they should stay quiet because nothing will change.

    Ignored? The media never shut up about Trumps comments regarding women letting him grab their pussy and how he was a misogynist, sexist etc. He won because he was up against Hillary Clinton whose whole campaign was based on the fact that she was female and other identity politicist nonsense.

    Trump at least talked about making America great, bringing back jobs which gave some people hope, regardless how ridiculous it was.

    Regardless, what future politician will want the coverage that Trump got? Better to be squeaky clean like Obama was.

    meeeeh wrote: »
    And as an example of a man who was hard done you an example Goggle exec who left with 200 million (or something like that) pay cheque.

    It was 90 million. Yes left because of an allegation. Nothing proven. An allegation. And why did google want to cover it up? Because of all the negative publicity it would bring. It would just be assumed to be true. The Google exec literally proves the opposite of what you want it to.
    Google said this week that, since 2016, employees who had left the company after sexual harassment allegations had not received a pay-off.

    Nothing proven. An allegation, and they lost their job.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-46047834


  • #323
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    @DanDan, I am not trying to say everything is on the same level of seriousness but I just think Metoo might have the effect of making people a bit more careful in word and deed and tbh I can't see what's so bad about that.
    I have no doubt whatsoever that there are female bosses and the likes that sexually misbehave towards male employees too causing confusion, awkwardness and even fear in them so let's have their stories. I'm sure it's just as bad for males that it is happening to. And again it doesn't have to be assault, just a boss or colleague causing such embarrassment with sexual jokes etc to make one dread going to work. Grand if its welcome banter but in a lot of these cases the person is enjoying that it's not welcome and that's the problem.


  • #324
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    Mrsmum wrote: »
    @DanDan, I am not trying to say everything is on the same level of seriousness but I just think Metoo might have the effect of making people a bit more careful in word and deed and tbh I can't see what's so bad about that.
    I have no doubt whatsoever that there are female bosses and the likes that sexually misbehave towards male employees too causing confusion, awkwardness and even fear in them so let's have their stories. I'm sure it's just as bad for males that it is happening to. And again it doesn't have to be assault, just a boss or colleague causing such embarrassment with sexual jokes etc to make one dread going to work. Grand if its welcome banter but in a lot of these cases the person is enjoying that it's not welcome and that's the problem.

    Fair enough, I don't doubt that it happens to women more. My argument nis that the #metoo movement is past the point of making people check their behaviour, way past that. And is something a lot more cynical now.


  • #325
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    Ignored? The media never shut up about Trumps comments regarding women letting him grab their pussy and how he was a misogynist, sexist etc. He won because he was up against Hillary Clinton whose whole campaign was based on the fact that she was female and other identity politicist nonsense.

    Trump at least talked about making America great, bringing back jobs which gave some people hope, regardless how ridiculous it was.

    Regardless, what future politician will want the coverage that Trump got? Better to be squeaky clean like Obama was.




    It was 90 million. Yes left because of an allegation. Nothing proven. An allegation. And why did google want to cover it up? Because of all the negative publicity it would bring. It would just be assumed to be true. The Google exec literally proves the opposite of what you want it to.





    Nothing proven. An allegation, and they lost their job.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-46047834
    How do you know it was nothing proven? Or it could be that it suited everyone better not to dig further or report it to the police.

    As for Trump you claimed that accusations of sexual assault damage career. It didn't happen to Trump or Kavanagh but it did affect the life of Dr Ford. I don't know if her accusations were true but she is the one whose life was turned upside down.


  • #326
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    meeeeh wrote: »
    How do you know it was nothing proven? Or it could be that it suited everyone better not to dig further or report it to the police.

    As for Trump you claimed that accusations of sexual assault damage career. It didn't happen to Trump or Kavanagh but it did affect the life of Dr Ford. I don't know if her accusations were true but she is the one whose life was turned upside down.

    Because there was no investigation. It was an allegation. Suited everyone, even the accuser?

    What about the other people who have lost jobs based of nothing but an accusation?


  • #327
    Reviews and Books Galore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Reviews and Books Galore


    leggo wrote: »
    Happy to have any and all posts addressed, just like you were able to here. It’s just mad how those who are against an anti-rape movement couldn’t respect one request in one post not to do one thing. Is that a character trait I see emerging??
    Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »
    Have you just implied that the people replying may not take no for an answer in a sexual situation?

    What do people think about this exchange?
    I am genuinely curious if I am right about the implication or if it could be construed in another manner.


  • #328
    Bigbagofcans
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭Bigbagofcans


    Chris_Heilong wrote: »
    End of #metoo

    Hops so, it was an effective weapon against those in power in hollywood and a wake up call for those producers who were praying on young actors/actresses who would do anything to get into the industry however it has also been used as a weapon by those who wish to wield it against men in general and it is for this reason it needs to die out.

    I didn't think the producers were that holy.


  • #329
    py2006
    Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    Mrsmum wrote: »
    You say most men don't do these things, Yet most women have numerous stories of these things done and said to them so I guess it's just that some men are incredibly busy.

    Right so those of us who don't rape or sexually assault women are not doing so because we are good people but merely because we "too busy" to do it?????


  • #330
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    I definitely believe sexual harassment exists and is widespread, although far far less than 10 years ago. However this isnt the same thing as saying men can't be falsely accused. And the bar now is so low in the US at least, pretty much any interaction with a woman can be deemed sexual harassment. Like the guy in the pic.

    Doesn't surprise me at all. Some women really believe that every interaction any man has with them is sexual.

    Let's put it this way : the numbers of actual sexual harassing men and the numbers of paranoid accusing women - on a scale from calling a man creepy they don't like, spreading untrue rumours about them or full blown false accusations - are about the same.

    Since both have multiple victims, pretty much everyone of either gender will have at least one story about meeting at least one. This doesn't mean that ALL men or women are like this.

    It astonishes me how people of both genders deny this about their own gender, or lots of men deny it about the opposite gender.


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  • #331
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    py2006 wrote: »
    Right so those of us who don't rape or sexually assault women are not doing so because we are good people but merely because we "too busy" to do it?????

    Right so those men who don't eat meat are not doing so because they are health or environment conscious but because they are "too busy" to do it?????

    Makes as much sense as your statement.

    The vast majority of men do not rape or sexually assault obviously but a sizeable proportion behave in sexually offensive ways towards women. I bet you've all seen it. There are right creeps for whom doing it all the time is a way of life but nice men behave in sexually inappropriate ways on occasions too. I don't know if it's more or less depressing that a lot of men don't even regard what they're doing as not on. It's nice on the one hand that there's often no malice in it but on the other hand it's bad it's so ingrained as ok, they can't even see it.

    There is no law that I know of that says metoo means women are only allowed speak up about the worst experiences. Whenever the metoo topic comes up among women I know, its the low grade stuff, thankfully, we share about. But you know, low grade can, as with a friend of mine, result in her silently leaving her job because she is so uncomfortable with the behaviour around her. When you're all so worried about men losing their jobs due to accusations, just spare a quick thought for the many women who have left jobs due to the bosses wandering hands or leery ways. My own boss who actually otherwise is a nice family man once told me at a Christmas party that ignoring the boss was not the way to get ahead. Yeah I was avoiding him because he was drunk and messy. A 'nothing' incident among hundreds of 'nothing' incidents. We didn't speak openly about these situations before but now instead of hiding a situation like a guilty secret, women feel more empowered to speak up. (In a way it's akin to the way the whole Peter Casey business seems to have given people permission to express their feelings about travellers.) If men are a bit ? at the moment, could ye not take it on the chin for a small while until a lot of this is cleansed, we've had to take it on the chin for years.


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