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Avengers: Endgame [** SPOILERS FROM POST 613 **]

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,933 ✭✭✭Tazzimus


    I have a question Murph.
    Why do you keep watching these movies when you clearly have no vested interest in them?
    You barely tolerate them from what I can make of your posts, and then dismiss a movie that's the culmination of ten years of other movies as having plot holes and characters you've never seen before.

    These movies are made for the fans of the source material, more so than the casuals who might know who Iron Man is, but never heard of Gamora or Zemo.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,723 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Penn wrote: »
    I think a large part of the praise it got wasn't the fact it had a black cast, but rather how it showed African culture, and stayed true to that culture while also blending it with the premise of the movie. I remember reading things about how someone at Marvel initially suggested they should all speak with British accents because of how developed Wakanda is and how regal they're meant to be (especially as royal characters). The filmmakers also went to great lengths to ensure the women had natural hair (eg. not chemically straightened), there were snippets of real regional dialects, styles etc.

    But yes, given its huge ethnic cast and setting which made it an outlier in terms of movies of that scale, it got a lot more attention and praise than it likely would have otherwise. But it also wasn't a bad movie by most standards, and in many cases awards are given based on their cultural impact, not just quality. Black Panther had a significant cultural impact in large part due to its black cast and setting.

    I hadn't realised the original intention was to have the Wakandans speak with British accents; that would have been a little sketchy (but I totally get it, cos in Hollywood, all Royal families are basically variants of British, about whom the US is obsessed). As you say, it was a film that fronted African culture & aesthetics quite openly, which in of itself was a huge change in perspective and prominence. If nothing else, it was a breath of fresh air.

    Hollywood film simply doesn't GO to Africa, except as Oscar bait to ram home some poverty or exploitation angle (see material like Blood Diamond); Black Panther was a mainstream movie that said "Hey, it's actually a pretty diverse, interesting continent" - and sparked a rise in interest for "afrofuturism", with the likes of Octavia Butler getting a bump in sales and highlight.

    And all this helped that it was a solid, excellent film - dodgy action scenes notwithstanding.


  • Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,073 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    pixelburp wrote: »

    Hollywood film simply doesn't GO to Africa, except as Oscar bait to ram home some poverty or exploitation angle (see material like Blood Diamond); Black Panther was a mainstream movie that said "Hey, it's actually a pretty diverse, interesting continent" - and sparked a rise in interest for "afrofuturism", with the likes of Octavia Butler getting a bump in sales and highlight.

    I still think it didn't do anything Eddie Murphy's Coming to America hadn't done 30 years before in that regard :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,136 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    pixelburp wrote: »
    I hadn't realised the original intention was to have the Wakandans speak with British accents; that would have been a little sketchy (but I totally get it, cos in Hollywood, all Royal families are basically variants of British, about whom the US is obsessed). As you say, it was a film that fronted African culture & aesthetics quite openly, which in of itself was a huge change in perspective and prominence. If nothing else, it was a breath of fresh air.

    Yeah. It was Chadwick Boseman who really fought for it when they were casting him for Civil War (as whatever accent he used in that film would have been the basis for Black Panther)

    https://mashable.com/article/black-panther-british-accent/?europe=true
    When you're hearing Wakandans speak in Black Panther, you're actually hearing the Xhosa accent, which originates from South Africa.

    But things could've been different if it went Marvel's way, with the studio apparently wanting a British accent, according to the film's star Chadwick Boseman.

    The film's dialect coach Beth McGuire told Slate that Xhosa was picked due to the ancestry of South African actor John Kani, who played T’Chaka in the precursor to Black Panther, Captain America: Civil War.

    "They felt like it was maybe too much for an audience to take," Boseman told The Hollywood Reporter's "Awards Chatter" podcast.

    "They felt like people won't be able to understand it through a whole movie, and if we do it now, we're stuck with it. I felt the exact opposite, like, if I speak with a British accent, what's gonna happen when I go home?"

    Boseman added that he had a choice between British or using an American accent, but decided the choice of accent was something that he wanted to fight for.

    "For them, I don’t think it was that deep. I think it was an opinion, but I don't think they weren’t like, 'We’re gonna fire you,'" he said.

    "But I was in that place where I was like, 'No, this is such an important factor that if we lose this right now, what else are we gonna throw away for the sake of making people feel comfortable?' And so yes, that was a huge thing."


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,936 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    Him and Andy Serkis were the Tolkien white dudes.

    Lads close the thread this post just wins everything brilliant.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭magic_murph


    Tazzimus wrote: »
    I have a question Murph.
    Why do you keep watching these movies when you clearly have no vested interest in them?
    You barely tolerate them from what I can make of your posts, and then dismiss a movie that's the culmination of ten years of other movies as having plot holes and characters you've never seen before.

    These movies are made for the fans of the source material, more so than the casuals who might know who Iron Man is, but never heard of Gamora or Zemo.

    I have no vested interest in these movies but do watch to see how they progress - with the amount of money these Marvel movies have generated over the years I would expect the quality to increase everytime - not exactly the case I would say.

    It is my opinion that End Game is a terrible movies - you may disagree but it is my opinion so I am 100% correct.

    I have watched all of the Avengers movies thinking that would be enough to understand the storyline- little did I know I also had to watch some stand alone movies as well to keep up to speed on new characters being introduced. Lesson Learnt.
    Lets just agree to disagree - there are many movies that I know are terrible but I still really enjoy as simple brain candy.
    I just didn't get anything from End Game and Infinity War was also a disappointment but I am sure than has been covered many time in a separate thread.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,323 ✭✭✭Homelander


    It would also be largely due to the fact that you missed a lot by not watching the other movies. Avengers isn't standalone at all, if you'd only watched The Avengers titled movies, they wouldn't even make a whole lot of sense. It'd be like watching a TV show but skipping every second episode. Some are more standalone than others but all are heavily linked. Captain America Civil War is basically an untitled Avengers movie.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,136 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    I have no vested interest in these movies but do watch to see how they progress - with the amount of money these Marvel movies have generated over the years I would expect the quality to increase everytime - not exactly the case I would say.

    It is my opinion that End Game is a terrible movies - you may disagree but it is my opinion so I am 100% correct.

    I have watched all of the Avengers movies thinking that would be enough to understand the storyline- little did I know I also had to watch some stand alone movies as well to keep up to speed on new characters being introduced. Lesson Learnt.
    Lets just agree to disagree - there are many movies that I know are terrible but I still really enjoy as simple brain candy.
    I just didn't get anything from End Game and Infinity War was also a disappointment but I am sure than has been covered many time in a separate thread.

    It's the whole point behind the shared universe of these movies though, and particularly Infinity War and Endgame which were billed precisely as being the culmination of the events of all the movies which came before. While you can watch individual films or franchises within the MCU as a whole, you miss out on references to events or characters from other movies within the MCU. While it may be a detraction for some, it's a huge selling point for others who do watch all the movies, and get to see the connections between all the movies and how they tie-in with each other.

    So particularly with Infinity War and Endgame being the culmination of all the previous movies, for those who hadn't seen at least the majority of them there are going to be things which are lost. But that happens in many franchises, not just the MCU. Anyone who went to see Hobbs and Shaw without seeing at least the last 2 Fast & Furious movies wouldn't get any of the tie-ins to those movies. Same for Terminator Dark Fate if you'd only seen the last two Terminator films, but not Terminator 1 or 2. Or Rogue One without seeing any Star Wars films.

    While the writers/directors have a responsibility to ensure movies are watchable as standalone experiences, it's never going to be as good an experience without knowledge of the pieces which came before. All the Marvel movies are pieces of a whole.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,936 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    Itd be like solely watching the season finales of a tv series expecting it to make total sense.


  • Registered Users Posts: 864 ✭✭✭El Duda


    It's like watching Twin peaks in its entirety and expecting it to make sense.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,723 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    pjohnson wrote: »
    Itd be like solely watching the season finales of a tv series expecting it to make total sense.

    Yup, this is what I've been saying; when asked, I was actively dissuading friends who hadn't seen much, many, or enough of the MCU, from going to see EndGame in the cinemas, knowing that they'd be horribly confused. Just makes no sense in context of what the MCU IS.

    I gave up on Game Of Thrones after 3 seasons and would never dream of just parachuting back into the Season 8 finale on a whim (though thanks to the ludicrous internet outrage & hyperbole, I know the ins and outs anyway :D)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭magic_murph


    All valid points people but I still think the movie was poor - regardless of the disconnect between the other movies - really the only gap i found was the super blonde lady appearing out of nowhere but I now know why. Even excusing that I just wasn't impressed with some of the character changes (Hulk) poor CGI, poor costume etc

    It might have been a great finale for some fans but for me personally it was just blahh.


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭Ethereal Cereal


    All valid points people but I still think the movie was poor - regardless of the disconnect between the other movies - really the only gap i found was the super blonde lady appearing out of nowhere but I now know why. Even excusing that I just wasn't impressed with some of the character changes (Hulk) poor CGI, poor costume etc

    It might have been a great finale for some fans but for me personally it was just blahh.

    You've said that a couple of times now. I'm curious, did you see her in the hologram conference at the start of the movie explaining the reason for her absence? Maybe you missed that scene or you didnt recognize her when she turned up at the end of the movie?


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,136 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    You've said that a couple of times now. I'm curious, did you see her in the hologram conference at the start of the movie explaining the reason for her absence? Maybe you missed that scene or you didnt recognize her when she turned up at the end of the movie?

    I think he meant her being in the movie at all, considering he hadn't seen the Captain Marvel movie so didn't know who she was or why she was there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭magic_murph


    Penn wrote: »
    I think he meant her being in the movie at all, considering he hadn't seen the Captain Marvel movie so didn't know who she was or why she was there.

    Correct - I haven't seen Captain Marvel so you can understand my confusion when she appeared in End Game with no real fan fair.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,688 ✭✭✭Midnight_EG


    Correct - I haven't seen Captain Marvel so you can understand my confusion when she appeared in End Game with no real fan fair.

    You must have also missed her in the trailer for Endgame :confused::rolleyes:

    And the poster, in fact
    51le5tUBQWL.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭magic_murph


    You must have also missed her in the trailer for Endgame :confused::rolleyes:

    And the poster, in fact
    51le5tUBQWL.jpg

    I didn't even look at the poster - seen it available on Sky, clicked the buy now button and wasted 3 hours of my life. Simple as that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,832 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    I didn't even look at the poster - seen it available on Sky, clicked the buy now button and wasted 3 hours of my life. Simple as that.

    This goes back to a point earlier in the thread when there was a sudden second wave of reviews when a good download became available.

    Sure everyone is entitled to an opinion, but regularly you can't put the same weight on complaints so late after a release. This is especially the case when they're vague, as often the person has the same issues as magic_murph has highlighted, where they either don't like the genre in the first place or have missed key pieces that frustrate them, which means they are never going to like it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭magic_murph


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    This goes back to a point earlier in the thread when there was a sudden second wave of reviews when a good download became available.

    Sure everyone is entitled to an opinion, but regularly you can't put the same weight on complaints so late after a release. This is especially the case when they're vague, as often the person has the same issues as magic_murph has highlighted, where they either don't like the genre in the first place or have missed key pieces that frustrate them, which means they are never going to like it.

    I'v already address that items that I have missed and really don't think it would make a difference has I watched all the Marvel movies back to back (I bet somebody has done that) I still would think this End Game is a bad movie - either as part of the collective or stand alone.
    Usually there are parts to like in most movies but not in this case.

    I also think getting reviews after a few months after the initial release is good as the hyped has died down so the review holds a bit more weight as people aren't getting carried away or scared to buck the trend of saying this is the best thing since the last best thing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,832 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    I'v already address that items that I have missed and really don't think it would make a difference has I watched all the Marvel movies back to back (I bet somebody has done that) I still would think this End Game is a bad movie - either as part of the collective or stand alone.
    Usually there are parts to like in most movies but not in this case.

    I also think getting reviews after a few months after the initial release is good as the hyped has died down so the review holds a bit more weight as people aren't getting carried away or scared to buck the trend of saying this is the best thing since the last best thing.

    How does a review carry more weight when several of your main complaints showed you didn't understand what was going on? You've admitted that you don't really like MCU movies so it isn't surprising you don't like the finale that links them together, again not seeing why the opinion of someone with that mindset should hold more weight.

    Originally I thought fair play to you for giving your reasons for your opinion, but when called out you've now quickly veered into the usual vague late comer who has watched it because there's nothing else on reviews that go along the lines of 'it was a bad movie because I didn't like it'. I've no interest in having a discussion at that level so I'm out.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭magic_murph


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    How does a review carry more weight when several of your main complaints showed you didn't understand what was going on? You've admitted that you don't really like MCU movies so it isn't surprising you don't like the finale that links them together, again not seeing why the opinion of someone with that mindset should hold more weight.

    Originally I thought fair play to you for giving your reasons for your opinion, but when called out you've now quickly veered into the usual vague late comer who has watched it because there's nothing else on reviews that go along the lines of 'it was a bad movie because I didn't like it'. I've no interest in having a discussion at that level so I'm out.


    I meant reviews in general are more trust worthy written after the initial buzz of a release is over.

    You are missing the point - me thinking it was a bad movie is my opinion, I just didn't like it. You may think it's the best movie of all time and that's fine - each to their own but me personally thought it was lacking on a number of fronts.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,864 ✭✭✭EoinMcLovin


    Deleted scene that appears in Disney + release of Endgame.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,688 ✭✭✭Midnight_EG


    Deleted scene that appears in Disney + release of Endgame.

    Super glad that wasn't in the movie.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭Nigzcurran


    Deleted scene that appears in Disney + release of Endgame.

    Jesus that was a **** fest


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭JJayoo


    Black Widow has annoyed me in these films, except for winter soilder where I thought her character was perfect. She is about 5 foot tall with no super powers and she is battering everyone.

    But let's say in her stand alone film we learn that the Russians had been trying to perfect the super soilder serem, and that black widow and her fellow asasins were being tested on. The serem was a failure on all test subjects except for black widow but she hid the results, meaning she hid her new strength/speed/abilities knowing that she could use this to enable her to escape from her masters.

    So all along black widow was super powered, not to the level of Captain America, but she was still far stronger than the average strong man, then add in her training and it makes sense that she can physically go against and beat so many.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    This was a really satisfying conclusion to a well woven and brilliantly told story.

    Taken on it’s own merits though? It’s more than a bit of a chore.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,711 ✭✭✭SureYWouldntYa


    Taken on it’s own merits though? It’s more than a bit of a chore.

    It's a bit like reading the last chapter of a book and saying it doesn't stand up, or the final Harry Potter

    The fact it is an ending most were very happy with is a testament to it, just look at Game of Thrones for things going badly


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    It's a bit like reading the last chapter of a book and saying it doesn't stand up, or the final Harry Potter

    The fact it is an ending most were very happy with is a testament to it, just look at Game of Thrones for things going badly

    I’m not saying it’s bad. The payoff is really huge and earned and heartfelt.

    Getting to there though in this film is such a slog. None of the brevity and fun and well crafted scenes and writing that made up the series and made them what they are.
    Just a tedious monotonous drudge to the big payoff.

    Horses for courses. I liked the GOT ending. It’s what inspired me to join boards cos of all the whinging about that ending.

    (That last bit is gonna draw fire)

    Roll on rise of skywalker. I’m sure we’ll all love it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,688 ✭✭✭Midnight_EG


    JJayoo wrote: »
    Black Widow has annoyed me in these films, except for winter soilder where I thought her character was perfect. She is about 5 foot tall with no super powers and she is battering everyone.

    But let's say in her stand alone film we learn that the Russians had been trying to perfect the super soilder serem, and that black widow and her fellow asasins were being tested on. The serem was a failure on all test subjects except for black widow but she hid the results, meaning she hid her new strength/speed/abilities knowing that she could use this to enable her to escape from her masters.

    So all along black widow was super powered, not to the level of Captain America, but she was still far stronger than the average strong man, then add in her training and it makes sense that she can physically go against and beat so many.

    I take it you know that Natasha is in fact a super-soldier also, just with the version that was mentioned in First Avenger to have not been perfected by the Russians.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭JJayoo


    Black Widow in the MCU, which is what this thread is based on, has zero super powers.

    In the comics it's a different story with her actually being born in the 1920s and fighting in WWII and having a serum, this is what I am hoping they will introduce.


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