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Looking for options if sales collapse due to Coronavirus.

  • 12-03-2020 8:45pm
    #1
    PickYourName
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭


    So far, my business is holding its own, despite many in the sector (hospitality) suffering very badly. With the latest announcement today, there’s a good chance our sales will collapse to almost zero next week. Due to a major investment last year, we have next to no cash reserves.

    What are my options, in particular in relation to staff? I’m not so much looking for strategic advice, for which I’d have to share more information than I’d be comfortable with, but operational. If I just ask staff to take unpaid leave, presumably they won’t be able to claim social welfare, making things extremely difficult for them (and indeed for me, as I’m in the same situation). If I make them redundant, it will be difficult to get restarted in (hopefully) a few weeks’ time.

    What are the options, and advantages and disadvantages of each?


«13456

Comments

  • #2
    roots2branches
    Registered Users Posts: 66 ✭✭roots2branches


    I don't have staff, just me but my sales have fallen off the cliff last two days as i'm in the entertainment industry and shows are cancelled.
    My understanding is I can get some gov support if I get the virus, anyone know if there is any assistance to be had if I don't get the virus?


  • #3
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,604 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Cut hours ? Staff could claim social welfare if hours are certain threshold


  • #4
    PickYourName
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭PickYourName


    listermint wrote: »
    Cut hours ? Staff could claim social welfare if hours are certain threshold

    OK, that's interesting - I wasn't aware that was a possibility for them.


  • #5
    jimmii
    Registered Users Posts: 14,810 ✭✭✭✭jimmii


    Got to say for all the criticism of the UK government's response the things put in place in the budget yesterday are amazing for small businesses. Hopefully the Irish governemnt is going to put something together over there too. I had been hoping something would happen with rates wasn't expecting self employed sick pay and a grant being made available too.


  • #6
    han2000
    Registered Users Posts: 77 ✭✭han2000


    Just speaking with a friend of mine who is a childcare worker. She is off work for the next two weeks with no pay and must go to the social welfare office tomorrow to sign on for the time she is off.

    The government announced details of assistance that employees who find themselves in such a situation can avail of. Obviously most will still be losing money as social welfare payments are around the €200 mark per week. It is still better than nothing though.


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  • #7
    dreamers75
    Registered Users Posts: 20,558 ✭✭✭✭dreamers75


    Give the staff a heads up, there may be a delay in any social payments due to noone being there.


  • #8
    Jurgen Klopp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,807 ✭✭✭Jurgen Klopp


    If their hours are cut they can claim SW

    Make sure you were to do in such a way their hours are based over 1 or 2 days only

    For example I've had to cut Mary to 10 hours a week she does them all of a Monday only

    Reason being if you were to work 1 hour a day for even 4 days a week they won't give feck all. Absolute joke but that's how they are set up


  • #9
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Forms UP14 (social welfare) and RP9 (redundancy payments acts) are what you need to put full time employees on short time.

    https://www.gov.ie/en/service/c20e1b-short-time-work-support/

    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/redundancy/lay_off_short_time_working_and_redundancy.html

    Even if your employee is not eligible for Short Time Work Support they may be eligible for something else.

    You need to think inaginatively about what you can offer, if anything with much reduced staffing and hours.

    It is important to move quickly here to observe cash.

    Communication with staff is very important. Take your time and plan out what you are going to say. Think out the different situations. Try to send staff to the Intreo office somewhat prepared even if you are not sure about what everything.


  • #10
    PickYourName
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭PickYourName


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    Forms UP14 (social welfare) and RP9 (redundancy payments acts) are what you need to put full time employees on short time.

    https://www.gov.ie/en/service/c20e1b-short-time-work-support/

    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/redundancy/lay_off_short_time_working_and_redundancy.html

    Even if your employee is not eligible for Short Time Work Support they may be eligible for something else.

    You need to think inaginatively about what you can offer, if anything with much reduced staffing and hours.

    It is important to move quickly here to observe cash.

    Communication with staff is very important. Take your time and plan out what you are going to say. Think out the different situations. Try to send staff to the Intreo office somewhat prepared even if you are not sure about what everything.


    That's all very helpful, and much appreciated. Thanks!



  • #11
    BorneTobyWilde
    Registered Users Posts: 35,609 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    Some will need to get a loan to get by, see it as an investment, maybe spend some money on business in process too.


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  • #12
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    BorneTobyWilde wrote: »
    Some will need to get a loan to get by, see it as an investment, maybe spend some money on business in process too.

    You will need to get creative to figure out how to prop up your cash flow. If you don’t have an established lending relationship with your bank it is going to be difficult to start one now.

    But there are options. You really have to look hard at your list of suppliers and creditors to see what can be done.

    Please do not delay. This is here for two weeks, absolutely guaranteed. Realistically it is going to stretch well into April and quite likely into May. It is unlikely to be a bumper summer either.

    A well known hotel in Dublin 2 is said to have had no guests the night before last. Another very central one seemed to be down below 50 percent. Notices being issued all over the place.

    I am not trying to talk down the economy here. Other hospitality type businesses I know will trade on at reduced capacity and you should do that if you can.

    Take the steps you need to take, right away.

    One other note. This is not the time for a structural reform of your organization. This is a time to support everybody, emotionally and financially as best you can. It is not the time to cut people off.

    If you need to restructure, or get rid of that supervisor who isn’t performing or the cashier who is robbing you or whatever, do it, but not now. It’s just not the time.


  • #13
    Darc19
    Registered Users Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭Darc19


    Look at all expenditure

    Stop anything that is unnecessary. Eg, pension payments, rates, tslk to landlord, bank loans (banks will give payment holiday)

    If very tight hold off vat payments - revenue have stated that no penalties will apply and just a call from your accountant is needed.

    Staff, temporary layoffs, maybe if they are important you can assist them with a top up


  • #14
    PickYourName
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭PickYourName


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    A well known hotel in Dublin 2 is said to have had no guests the night before last. Another very central one seemed to be down below 50 percent. Notices being issued all over the place.

    I'm aware we're far from the worst. It may or may not be the same hotel, but from a direct source I heard that one very well known Dublin 2 hotel has just closed off the three uppermost floors (heating off etc.), forward bookings are close to zero and occupancy well under 50% (at Patrick's week-end!).

    Plenty of good advice, by the way and much appreciated.

    We met with staff today, to keep them informed. I tried to set up a meeting with the bank when I was in the branch, and was eventually given an 1850 number to ring: the days of building a personal relationship with the bank are obviously long gone. We do have an existing lending relationship with them, by the way. I plan to call Revenue on Monday: I've always found them very reasonable to deal with before, so am reasonably hopeful.

    I’d agree it’s a time to pull together: we’re shifting as much as we can from larger to smaller suppliers. It’s only a gesture at our volumes, but it all helps. I’ve heard that the one we’re shifting to has seen a drop of 50% in business; judging by the queues at SuperValu, Musgraves won’t miss the business involved.

    Personally, I think it’s going to be devastating to the economy: anything related to tourism in particular, which is a good chunk of the overall economy, is going to be hammered. I know it’s only temporary and economists blithely assert the economy will bounce back, but there will be a lot of damage in the meantime.

    Sorry to rant on spreading depression – definitely not my usual demeaner – but it’s very hard to watch it unfold. We've incredible staff and they're very understanding, but so hard to stand in front of them saying what I did today.


  • #15
    OttoPilot
    Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭OttoPilot


    Not sure if your customers are businesses or consumers but invoice factoring could be an option or using them as collateral for a loan. I know BoI Finance used to offer this to SMEs.

    If customers are due refunds, can you offer credit or alternatively explain the situation via email and see if customers will voluntarily defer refunds as a gesture of goodwill. It's a sunk cost to customers so they might play ball in the spirit of 'pulling together' especially if they are irish. Maybe whatever you were selling could be delivered at a later date with an additional 'bonus' for those who dont demand cash refunds. For example, if someone booked a tour, could you upgrade it? Just trying to think outside the box there but difficult when we dont know the specifics. Hopefully that's given you food for thought.

    Also, dont be tempted by loan sharks who will no doubt be preying on weakened businesses in the coming months.


  • #16
    rob316
    Registered Users Posts: 17,937 ✭✭✭✭rob316


    I think we will be ok for a while. We are small, diversified enough and do a lot of business in the medical sector. Its still going to seat of the pants stuff I reckon.

    Hang in there. Cut any unnecessary expenditure, reduce hours of staff, make sure any supplies you are procuring are at the best and right price, delay rates and talk to the revenue about withholding your returns for now

    All the best


  • #17
    PickYourName
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭PickYourName


    OttoPilot wrote: »
    Not sure if your customers are businesses or consumers but invoice factoring could be an option or using them as collateral for a loan. I know BoI Finance used to offer this to SMEs.

    Sales are to consumers, so not an option. It's great when times are normal: a max of two days to get cash in and most purchases are on 30 day credit (I ran a B2B company before this, where getting paid is - how can I put this - always a challenge).

    OttoPilot wrote: »
    If customers are due refunds, can you offer credit or alternatively explain the situation via email and see if customers will voluntarily defer refunds as a gesture of goodwill. It's a sunk cost to customers so they might play ball in the spirit of 'pulling together' especially if they are irish. Maybe whatever you were selling could be delivered at a later date with an additional 'bonus' for those who dont demand cash refunds. For example, if someone booked a tour, could you upgrade it? Just trying to think outside the box there but difficult when we dont know the specifics. Hopefully that's given you food for thought.

    Thinking outside the box is great advice - I'd started brainstorming earlier today (actually yesterday now – can’t sleep, so back online). The specifics are we’re a coffee shop/lunch/breakfast place with a customer base of nearby office workers (and schools). They work from home, they’re just not there to purchase. Schools closed, no teachers or parents after dropping off. Sales way down yesterday – the earlier part of the week had actually been relatively OK. There are places far, far worse than us, in particular evening trade. One Pico – a really great restaurant, by the way – put out a Tweet earlier this week to say they were closing (for that night), as they’d literally no bookings.

    There’s a very good piece in the IT giving a summary of the impact:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/cliff-taylor-irish-economy-faces-crisis-as-coronavirus-sucks-out-cash-1.4202278
    OttoPilot wrote: »
    Also, dont be tempted by loan sharks who will no doubt be preying on weakened businesses in the coming months.

    Agree, never.


  • #18
    PickYourName
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭PickYourName


    One other thing: normally I can’t stand it when particular sectors start whining about how bad they have it and how they need some special deal or whatever (my own industry being well up there at that): just get on with it, like the rest of us. However, I think this is very different. If you are in secure employment, how would you feel if someone tapped you on the shoulder and said: “sorry, but you’re going to have to take one for the team: you're out of a job, with no income, and by the way, there's no jobs in your line of work anywhere else: thanks!”. Nobody died from not getting a coffee and scone on their way to work, but there’s a very real possibility there could be 1,000s or 10s of 1,000s of people dying unnecessarily unless we’re all very careful. The point is right now, a few (I’m thinking of my employees here) are being asked to pay a very high price for trying to prevent that: is that not a price that should be shared?


  • #19
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    This is a very important notice. You do need to read between the lines a bit.

    https://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/press-office/press-releases/2020/pr-130320-revenue-announce-measures-to-assist-smes-experiencing-cashflow-difficulties-arising-from-covid-19.aspx


  • #20
    Gloomtastic!
    Registered Users Posts: 8,311 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    Passed Brahms cafe in Marino yesterday, first time I’ve ever seen it empty during the day.

    Restaurants round here, Dublin 3, are offering free home delivery. Messages going out via Facebook/Social Media.

    Leaflet drop to garages (mechanics)/building sites offering delivery of breakfasts?


  • #21
    OttoPilot
    Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭OttoPilot


    PickYourName wrote: »
    Sales are to consumers, so not an option. It's great when times are normal: a max of two days to get cash in and most purchases are on 30 day credit (I ran a B2B company before this, where getting paid is - how can I put this - always a challenge).




    Thinking outside the box is great advice - I'd started brainstorming earlier today (actually yesterday now – can’t sleep, so back online). The specifics are we’re a coffee shop/lunch/breakfast place with a customer base of nearby office workers (and schools). They work from home, they’re just not there to purchase. Schools closed, no teachers or parents after dropping off. Sales way down yesterday – the earlier part of the week had actually been relatively OK. There are places far, far worse than us, in particular evening trade. One Pico – a really great restaurant, by the way – put out a Tweet earlier this week to say they were closing (for that night), as they’d literally no bookings.

    There’s a very good piece in the IT giving a summary of the impact:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/cliff-taylor-irish-economy-faces-crisis-as-coronavirus-sucks-out-cash-1.4202278



    Agree, never.

    In that case, I would be looking to your landlord first and foremost. Can they suspend rent for a month in light of the amount of workers working from home. Their property is only worth what you're paying if there is footfall. Dont be afraid to outline that you could be out of business if they dont agree.


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  • #22
    jos28
    Registered Users Posts: 7,189 ✭✭✭jos28


    I rang SW to enquire about laying off staff or reducing hours. I've pasted the info below. I was told to bear in mind that there may be a delay in processing claims. AFAIK the 'waiting day' period has been lifted for people with Covid 19 claiming disability, there are no plans to do the same for Jobseekers. Applications can be made online provided the employee has a MYGove account.They just need a letter from you to say they have been laid off/had hours reduced. As an earlier poster pointed out, if reducing hours it's best to arrange working hours so they can claim full days benefit. Working even one hour be day means they cannot claim for that day.


    If your employer has no work for you, or less work than usual

    Your employer may decide to close their business for this period and send you home. This is called a temporary lay-off. If your employer cannot pay for this period, you can apply for Jobseeker’s Benefit or Jobseeker’s Allowance.

    If your employer reduces your hours to 3 days or less per week from your normal full-time hours, you can apply for a payment called Short Time Work Support which is a form of Jobseeker’s Benefit.

    Your employer can also put you on short-time working which is a more formal procedure and applies in the following situation:

    Due to a reduction in the amount of work to be done, your weekly pay is less than half your normal weekly pay or
    Your hours worked are reduced to less than half your normal weekly working hours


  • #23
    PickYourName
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭PickYourName


    OttoPilot wrote: »
    In that case, I would be looking to your landlord first and foremost. Can they suspend rent for a month in light of the amount of workers working from home. Their property is only worth what you're paying if there is footfall. Dont be afraid to outline that you could be out of business if they dont agree.

    Already decided to do this - am going to ask for three months: we'll see what transpires.


  • #24
    PickYourName
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭PickYourName


    jos28 wrote: »
    I rang SW to enquire about laying off staff or reducing hours. I've pasted the info below.

    Many thanks! Is the text you quoted taken from some Web site, and if so where?


  • #25
    jos28
    Registered Users Posts: 7,189 ✭✭✭jos28


    PickYourName wrote: »
    Many thanks! Is the text you quoted taken from some Web site, and if so where?

    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_during_covid19_restrictions.html


  • #26
    PickYourName
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭PickYourName


    jos28 wrote: »
    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_during_covid19_restrictions.html

    Great, thanks!


  • #27
    Trojan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,402 ✭✭✭✭Trojan


    Super advice & suggestions on this thread.

    I spoke with BOI business team on Friday morning and got a 3 month break (pause) on term loan repayments.

    I'm going to speak with my accountant Monday about VAT.

    I put together some thoughts & suggestions for anyone in B2B professional services sector, which is going to get hit very hard by knock-on effects:

    Practical business ideas to deal with COVID-19 impact

    Main points:
    • Call your clients - they are hurting & uncertain
    • Show them you care - brainstorm some ideas with them about remote work, moving operations online, sales.
    • Cash flow is key
    • Send unsent invoices immediately
    • Pause or cancel non-essential expenses
    • Pause loan repayments (talk to your bank, and Revenue)
    • Reduce receivable days
    • Increase payable days
    • Discount on case-by-case basis, particularly for expedited payment
    • Work on sales, ask for referrals (not right this minute, but when things settle down a little)
    • Remember: This Too Shall Pass. We'll get through it.

    Things will be tough for a lot of people out there. They are sick, lonely and scared. Please be as understanding and sympathetic as you can while maintaining a positive mindset.

    Keep your head up, and do what you need to do to stay in the game.

    🎙️ The Recognized Authority Podcast



  • #28
    PickYourName
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭PickYourName


    Trojan wrote: »
    I put together some thoughts & suggestions for anyone in B2B professional services sector, which is going to get hit very hard by knock-on effects:

    Practical business ideas to deal with COVID-19 impact

    That's really useful, many thanks.

    Although we're B2C, I'm very conscious that our situation has knock-on effects to our suppliers. This is particularly because they are mostly smaller local companies. We started six years ago at the height of the recession and made an effort to try and support local businesses as much as possible. I’ve yet to contact any of them, but will definitely do so tomorrow.

    Our current action plan is looking like:

    - Follow, and be seen to follow, all govt. health and general advice, with very clear priority of well-being of staff, customers and the business in that order
    - This will involve some operational changes, to be implemented immediately
    - Contact our bank to suspend loan and leasing payments for three months
    - Contact Revenue to see if we can suspend PAYE/PRSI/USC and VAT payments due later this month, situation to be reviewed next month
    - Contact landlord to see if we can suspend rent payments for the next three months, with payment to an agreed schedule next year
    - Contact key suppliers: details of what we say will depend very much on the state of the account and the size of the supplier. Larger ones will simply be asked to extend credit period from 30 days to something higher; smaller ones will be to discuss payment schedule on current balances owed
    - I’ve already agreed to keep staff informed on (at least) a weekly basis

    Our situation is not great: we have enough cash in hand to cover net wages for about two weeks, assuming a positive response on all of the above discussions. I don’t want start any week and have people come in working unless I know I’ve cash to pay them: there’s just too much uncertainty we’ll have any income at all (as in France, there’s a possibility our doors might be closed with no warning).


  • #29
    jos28
    Registered Users Posts: 7,189 ✭✭✭jos28


    It really would make a lot of sense if Government could organise some form of subsidy to help employees whose hours have been reduced/cut completely. Most employers are doing their best to keep things going and dread telling staff that they have to impose cuts. People working in creches, hospitality,retail etc will be inundating Dept of Social Welfare with new claims.
    Some sort of payment made directly through employers would cut out an enormous amount of admin. Proof could be supplied by employers producing rosters and evidence of reduced takings.
    It seems crazy in these strange times to be directing everyone to the normal Social Welfare system.


  • #30
    OttoPilot
    Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭OttoPilot


    PickYourName wrote: »
    That's really useful, many thanks.

    Although we're B2C, I'm very conscious that our situation has knock-on effects to our suppliers. This is particularly because they are mostly smaller local companies. We started six years ago at the height of the recession and made an effort to try and support local businesses as much as possible. I’ve yet to contact any of them, but will definitely do so tomorrow.

    Our current action plan is looking like:

    - Follow, and be seen to follow, all govt. health and general advice, with very clear priority of well-being of staff, customers and the business in that order
    - This will involve some operational changes, to be implemented immediately
    - Contact our bank to suspend loan and leasing payments for three months
    - Contact Revenue to see if we can suspend PAYE/PRSI/USC and VAT payments due later this month, situation to be reviewed next month
    - Contact landlord to see if we can suspend rent payments for the next three months, with payment to an agreed schedule next year
    - Contact key suppliers: details of what we say will depend very much on the state of the account and the size of the supplier. Larger ones will simply be asked to extend credit period from 30 days to something higher; smaller ones will be to discuss payment schedule on current balances owed
    - I’ve already agreed to keep staff informed on (at least) a weekly basis

    Our situation is not great: we have enough cash in hand to cover net wages for about two weeks, assuming a positive response on all of the above discussions. I don’t want start any week and have people come in working unless I know I’ve cash to pay them: there’s just too much uncertainty we’ll have any income at all (as in France, there’s a possibility our doors might be closed with no warning).

    Instead of suspending rent to be paid in future, see if they will just waive the rent. As I said, their property is only valuable to you if there is footfall, which there is not. They should bear some of the pain. The worst they can say is no and then you ask for a deferment


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  • #31
    PickYourName
    Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭PickYourName


    jos28 wrote: »
    It seems crazy in these strange times to be directing everyone to the normal Social Welfare system.

    What you're suggesting makes a lot of sense. However, in reality it would take time to get any new system up and running, which is time we don't have. Even if they're imperfect, using the existing structures is realistically the only short-term option. One assumes internal resources will be augmented to help with increased demand, which I agree will be very substantial.


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