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Rent Review

  • 13-04-2019 8:02am
    #1
    Atlas_IRL
    Registered Users Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭


    Hi,

    Renting a 3 bed apartment in Dublin which is in the rent pressure zone. When we moved in 5 years ago the rent was 1050 and was market rent for the that time. Over the years this has gone up to 1150 then 1250 and frozen for 2 years.

    The landlord now wants 1750 and with rpz being only legally allowed to have a hike of 4% does he have any legal rights to do this. The market has doubled since we first moved in so we are under market value but I'm not sure if that matters or not. He sent us an apartment going nearby for 2250 and said that he needs more under current market conditions but a €500 hike sounds crazy. Looking to know legalities before we discuss with him.


«1

Comments

  • #2
    dudara
    Registered Users Posts: 33,519 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    Go to the RTB website, find the rent review calculator and plug in your numbers. You’ll need the current rent, and the date it was last set. It will tell you the new maximum allowed rent. Come back and let us know what it says.


  • #3
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,366 ✭✭✭McGiver


    That's 37% hike which is illegal. Maximum he can do for the initial rent review is 8% assuming you never had rent review as per the new law done before. Otherwise it could be less.

    Check the RTB calculator but based on what you've said max rent should be 1350.


  • #4
    voluntary
    Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭voluntary


    <MOD SNIP>

    voluntary, go and read the forum charter. Pay particular attention to the section that mentions illegal or dubiously legal.


  • #5
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,366 ✭✭✭McGiver


    voluntary wrote:
    Go and read the forum charter. Pay particular attention to the section that mentions illegal or dubiously legal.

    Link please.


  • #6
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    That mod note was aimed at the specific post it replaced McGiver. There is no issue with any of your posts. I have edited the snip for clarity.

    Here's the forum charter link anyway: Accommodation & Property Charter 2018 Edition - Please read before posting.


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  • #7
    Atlas_IRL
    Registered Users Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭Atlas_IRL


    Calculation:
    R x (1 + 0.04 x t/m)

    €1250 x ( 1 + 0.04 * 24/12) = €1350.00

    That's the max from the calculator on that site.


  • #8
    Browney7
    Registered Users Posts: 3,098 ✭✭✭Browney7


    OP, you've a few choices.

    Unless the LL has been living under a rock, it's incredibly likely that the LL is aware that what he is proposing is illegal (whilst plenty people disagree with the RPZ law as it is currently, this isn't up for discussion here - it's the law of the land presently)

    Now, if you say back to the LL that you believe the proposed rent increase to be illegal and in contravention of RPZ rules, you'll very likely get a termination notice for renovation or for sale (which he/she will only likely to be able to sell to an owner occupier or an investor who is willing to flout the law as your rent follows the property).

    If you keep paying the rent as is currently after the passing of the review date, the LL may scream blue murder and threaten RTB action for rent arrears but he would be foolish to do so. You'll prob get a termination notice for sale after a few months of this.

    You can choose to pay the rent sought and choose to be blissfully unaware of the RPZ legislation and assume that your landlord is law abiding and knows what he can and can't do and at the end of the tenancy decide whether you want to assert your rights under the Residential tenancies act and let the RTB adjudicate as to the validity of your rent review or go merrily into the sunset (I'm assuming that this is the action that Graham has deleted from previous posts).


  • #9
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    ^^ I imagine the law would look poorly on somebody who tried to raise rent illegally and then tried to remove tenants illegally when it was pointed out, which I would be conveying to the LL.


  • #10
    voluntary
    Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭voluntary


    Tar.Aldarion wrote: »
    ^^ I imagine the law would look poorly on somebody who tried to raise rent illegally and then tried to remove tenants illegally when it was pointed out, which I would be conveying to the LL.

    Changing mind isn't illegal.


  • #11
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users Posts: 1,761 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    is the tenant legally obliged to dispute the incorrect amount within 28 days from the notice or date the new rent is due? what happens if there is no dispute raised in the time allowed


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  • #12
    not yet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,008 ✭✭✭not yet


    If you have a decent relationship with your LL maybe suggest you meet him half way..?

    Just a heads up, A LL I know wanted her tenants out, she pretended she had to sell Property, got them out and put property on the market for 30% above market value, obviously no takers. It's now rented out for 400euro above what tenants were paying.


  • #13
    Browney7
    Registered Users Posts: 3,098 ✭✭✭Browney7


    not yet wrote: »
    If you have a decent relationship with your LL maybe suggest you meet him half way..?

    Just a heads up, A LL I know wanted her tenants out, she pretended she had to sell Property, got them out and put property on the market for 30% above market value, obviously no takers. It's now rented out for 400euro above what tenants were paying.

    I hope it stays fine for her and her previous tenants don't know...


  • #14
    voluntary
    Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭voluntary


    Browney7 wrote: »
    I hope it stays fine for her and her previous tenants don't know...

    What's the price tag these days? 10,000 Euro plus damages paid to the ex tenant?


  • #15
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Mod Note

    voluntary, do not post in this thread again.


  • #16
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,278 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    McGiver wrote: »
    That's 37% hike which is illegal. Maximum he can do for the initial rent review is 8% assuming you never had rent review as per the new law done before. Otherwise it could be less.

    Check the RTB calculator but based on what you've said max rent should be 1350.

    My reading is that its not an initial rent review- there have been 3 thus far- but there hasn't been one in the last 2 years. Still 8% is the allowable.

    OP- the percentage increase- depends on exactly when the tenancy started, when the rent was last reviewed- and other prevailing rents (which must be supplied by the landlord- even if he/she is not allowed to seek similar rents).

    Use the RTB calculator here to calculate the maximum permissable increase.


  • #17
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,623 ✭✭✭Fol20


    The ll was foolish in this case. Legally the ll cannot increase the rent that much. Even if your a good tenant, it would have been safer to evict you and spend 20k+ to get the property to market rate. He would make that money back within 2 years and have a better property, resale value would be better and have rent at market rate.


  • #18
    Atlas_IRL
    Registered Users Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭Atlas_IRL


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    My reading is that its not an initial rent review- there have been 3 thus far- but there hasn't been one in the last 2 years. Still 8% is the allowable.

    OP- the percentage increase- depends on exactly when the tenancy started, when the rent was last reviewed- and other prevailing rents (which must be supplied by the landlord- even if he/she is not allowed to seek similar rents).

    Use the RTB calculator here to calculate the maximum permissible increase.

    The last increase was frozen for two years so that's why its coming up again now.
    I have used the calculator and the max it should be raised is €1350.

    We haven't actually bothered him once in over 5 years, we just fix things our-self. The place does need a lot of work done though, balcony wooden slabs are rotting, it needs a paint job and a few other things done.

    I've looked at what's out there and there is **** all and everything is mad prices so we may have to try meet him somewhere lower possibly. Kicking up a massive row, falling out and getting evicted is just going to make us pay a lot more..


  • #19
    not yet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,008 ✭✭✭not yet


    Atlas_IRL wrote: »
    The last increase was frozen for two years so that's why its coming up again now.
    I have used the calculator and the max it should be raised is €1350.

    We haven't actually bothered him once in over 5 years, we just fix things our-self. The place does need a lot of work done though, balcony wooden slabs are rotting, it needs a paint job and a few other things done.

    I've looked at what's out there and there is **** all and everything is mad prices so we may have to try meet him somewhere lower possibly. Kicking up a massive row, falling out and getting evicted is just going to make us pay a lot more..

    If he really wants you out it'll happen, as I said earlier maybe meet him half way.
    If you are good tenants he may prefer the devil he knows etc even if it means a few euro less per month.


  • #20
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Atlas_IRL wrote: »
    The landlord now wants 1750
    Did he tell you this via text, verbally, or by letter? If verbally, say naught, and ask for it in writing.

    And then tell him that it's over the 4%.


  • #21
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,366 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Atlas_IRL wrote:
    I've looked at what's out there and there is **** all and everything is mad prices so we may have to try meet him somewhere lower possibly. Kicking up a massive row, falling out and getting evicted is just going to make us pay a lot more..

    I understand but what this means is that you are allowing and empowering the LL to break the law. And he will keep doing it with you in the future and with future tenants. What is the point of having any law then?

    And if more people allow LLs break the law then this completely undermines the rule of law.

    Also, I think "meet in the middle" strategy doesn't work. You can't appease bullies. Person who is willingly breaking law willing not likely negotiate much and as I said, in year's two year's time he will break the law again. You don't negotiate with the Mafia (exaggerating but you know what I mean).


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  • #22
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,366 ✭✭✭McGiver


    The_Conductor wrote:
    My reading is that its not an initial rent review- there have been 3 thus far- but there hasn't been one in the last 2 years. Still 8% is the allowable.

    Correction - if it's initial review then it's 2% pa, so if the tenancy has been in the place for 5 years that's 10% increase. After the initial review it's 4% pa counted from the time of the initial review.


  • #23
    Atlas_IRL
    Registered Users Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭Atlas_IRL


    the_syco wrote: »
    Did he tell you this via text, verbally, or by letter? If verbally, say naught, and ask for it in writing.

    And then tell him that it's over the 4%.

    Text message - then showed a nearby property for 2250...
    McGiver wrote: »
    I understand but what this means is that you are allowing and empowering the LL to break the law. And he will keep doing it with you in the future and with future tenants. What is the point of having any law then?

    And if more people allow LLs break the law then this completely undermines the rule of law.

    Also, I think "meet in the middle" strategy doesn't work. You can't appease bullies. Person who is willingly breaking law willing not likely negotiate much and as I said, in year's two year's time he will break the law again. You don't negotiate with the Mafia (exaggerating but you know what I mean).

    Noted! We are going to get advice today from prtb

    Also i checked there and he is not registered with them either.

    Thanks for all replies.


  • #24
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,366 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Atlas_IRL wrote:
    Also i checked there and he is not registered with them either.

    Registering tenancy is his legal duty. Not doing so is an issue. I'd advise contacting Threshold and get an advice.


  • #25
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,366 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Atlas_IRL wrote:
    Text message - then showed a nearby property for 2250...

    I must be in writing i.e. a letter. And the letter must have specific information otherwise not valid. But given that they failed to register the tenancy which is an offence, no surprise here.
    It is a legal requirement that landlords must registertenancies with the PRTB. Landlords failing to registera tenancy may be issued with a notice to register from the PRTB. If a landlord fails to comply they may be convicted and fined up to €4,000 and/or up to 6 months in prison.


  • #26
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,278 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    McGiver wrote: »
    Registering tenancy is his legal duty. Not doing so is an issue. I'd advise contacting Threshold and get an advice.

    Before you go in all guns blazing- please note the RTB database of registered tenancies is riddled with errors- and even when a tenancy is correctly registered- it may not be up on the database at all- or it may take an inordinate length of time before its put up (6 months + isn't unusual- they claim they're short staffed).

    Don't assume that if its not up- that your tenancy isn't registered- it might not be- but it also could be a screwup on the part of the RTB.


  • #27
    overkill602
    Registered Users Posts: 267 ✭✭overkill602


    McGiver wrote: »
    Registering tenancy is his legal duty. Not doing so is an issue. I'd advise contacting Threshold and get an advice.


    A late fee will suffice, the property is owned by the LL he will in time sell or renovate and will get market rate eventually ur sense of entitlement to cheaper rent than others is tenant greed...


  • #28
    Browney7
    Registered Users Posts: 3,098 ✭✭✭Browney7


    overkill602 wrote: »
    eventually ur sense of entitlement to cheaper rent than others is tenant greed...

    Or the law of the land as passed by elected politicians....


  • #29
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,278 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Cop on. If you disagree with another person's post- refute it factually- without resorting to slinging abuse at one another. Its not that difficult to remain civil.


  • #30
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,623 ✭✭✭Fol20


    Browney7 wrote: »
    Or the law of the land as passed by elected politicians....

    I disagree with the law and it will have knock on consequences for the rental industry which in my opinion are bad for both tenants and ll alike. You are right though that you have to work with the cards your dealt with as best as possible and either fight it legally if you have a big war chest or vote for people who align to your views.


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  • #31
    dudara
    Registered Users Posts: 33,519 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    Atlas_IRL wrote: »

    Noted! We are going to get advice today from prtb

    Also i checked there and he is not registered with them either.

    Not all tenancies appear online. Your landlord could well have registered the tenancy. If your tenancy was registered with the RTB, then you would have received a letter from the RTB advising you of such. Did you receive that letter?

    Either way, it doesn't matter to you. You will still have all the protection, regardless of whether your tenancy is registered or not.


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