Why would you vote SF?

daveob007 · 28-03-2019 3:49pm

Wtf ? wrote: »

Still a wasted vote tho, Nobody down here would go into Government with them and I see why. Their history does them no favors either. Their current mouthpiece does not help either, They just oppose everything and do nothing. Waste of space of a hopefully gone era.

All the parties in the south have a history but they try to forget that and bash SF for the same thing, shower of hypocrites. SF are the only party which didn't abandon the people in the six counties or gave up on getting a united Ireland.

daveob007 · 28-03-2019 3:52pm

maccored wrote: »

The DUP were caught with their hand in the till - thats why theres no stormont

They get elected on the simple fact they wont go to Westminister. No idea how you think an handful of SF mps will equal the couple of hundred votes the british government are short when it comes to 'downing the dup and helping with the no border brexit thing'.

Then again, surely you'd be aware of these things before starting a thread about it ... no?

By taking seats in Westminster they would be accepting the six counties as part of the UK. They are part of Ireland occupied by the UK. Big difference.

daveob007 · 28-03-2019 3:56pm

blanch152 wrote: »

To be fair, both are opinions based on certain facts and assumptions and are not facts in and of themselves.

(1) In the case of bringing down Stormont, you are correct that the actions of the DUP were cited by SF as the reason why they were bringing down Stormont. However, that does not lead to a fact that the DUP brought down Stormont. The facts allow you to have the opinion that SF brought down Stormont or that the DUP brought down Stormont. Both opinions are valid, which is more valid is a matter for debate.

(2) In the second case, again you are correct that Sinn Fein have a policy of not taking up their seats at Westminister. However, it is not necessarily true that they got elected on that basis. People have myriad reasons for voting for political parties. Maybe Sinn Fein did get elected by those who voted for them to abstain from Westminister, maybe not. It is valid to hold an opinion that if you only include the votes for Sinn Fein that were on the basis of boycotting Westminister, then Sinn Fein would not have been elected to any of the seats. Therefore, you can have the opinion that they were not elected on that basis. Again, how much weight you give that opinion is up to you, but it is a valid opinion.

I vote SF for many reasons including not taking seats in London, if they changed their policy on that issue alone it would be enough for me not to vote them as is the same for most of their voters.

maccored · 28-03-2019 4:10pm

Laois_Man wrote: »

But Stormont really collapsed because the timing really suited SF's agenda to push for a border poll within the environment created by Brexit - an agenda also made easier with the absence of a devolved parliament.

jaysus talk about conspiracy theories

maccored · 28-03-2019 4:12pm

daveob007 wrote: »

By taking seats in Westminster they would be accepting the six counties as part of the UK. They are part of Ireland occupied by the UK. Big difference.

There is a big difference between being occupied and swearing allegiance to a foreign power. Are you saying there isn't?

devlinio · 28-03-2019 4:33pm

I wouldn't they're all talk, and oppose everything. Fine Gael may have problems, but they're still a solid party to lead the next government.

BluePlanet · 28-03-2019 4:37pm

Wtf ? wrote: »

They were voted into Stormont, They pulled out ?, They have seats in House of Commons, They don't attend (But collect expenses) They could be in London now downing the DUP and helping the no border brexit thing but they aint. They talk the talk etc. Why bother with them really. Flushing your ballot paper down the toilet would be better methinks. They are a wasted vote

My understanding is that no, they do not collect ministerial full salaries from Westminister nor expenses and are very transparent about what they receive:

https://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/16460

blanch152 · 28-03-2019 4:38pm

BluePlanet wrote: »

My understanding is that no, they do not collect ministerial full salaries from Westminister nor expenses and are very transparent about what they receive:

https://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/16460

Yes, they were very transparent about only getting the industrial wage in the South, forgetting to tell us that there were a large number of exceptions and that they took the amount as a net figure when it is only a gross figure.

BluePlanet · 28-03-2019 4:43pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Yes, they were very transparent about only getting the industrial wage in the South, forgetting to tell us that there were a large number of exceptions and that they took the amount as a net figure when it is only a gross figure.

Oh goodness me, what a horrible thing to do, they must be awfully nasty people. :eek: /sarcasm

James Brown · 28-03-2019 5:27pm

devlinio wrote: »

I wouldn't they're all talk, and oppose everything. Fine Gael may have problems, but they're still a solid party to lead the next government.

Even if that were the case I'd rather all talk than record breaking crises led by the 'solid' willful incompetence of the people of Fine Gael and Fianna Fail.

Seth Brundle · 28-03-2019 5:31pm

laoch na mona wrote: »

Sinn Fein MPs are elected on an abstentionist basis, their voters know this

I understand this SF's stance.
I just don't get why people would rather have no representation in NI when it matters.
People in NI complain about Brexit for example yet voted for a group that would not defend the views of the majority in NI on the matter. Now they're complaining that whilst NI voted to remain,it looks like they're being forced to leave against their wishes. Someone should be representing these people, not necessarily SF but someone!

laoch na mona wrote: »

The idea that Irish MPs can have any influence in Westminster is a fantasy Sinn Fein are proactive on Brexit where it counts in Brussels

In fairness representation for nationalists counts in Westminster also.
Due to the lack of engaged representation for nationalists in NI wihtin Westminster, the DUP are now actively seeking the removal of NI from Europe!

joe swanson · 28-03-2019 5:52pm

I would never vote for them. Underneath the or machine they are still the sectarian, murder supporters they always have been.

They are good at appealing to the welfare classes who want everything for nothing and someone to blame for their predicament

James Brown · 28-03-2019 5:54pm

joe swanson wrote: »

I would never vote for them. Underneath the or machine they are still the sectarian, murder supporters they always have been.

They are good at appealing to the welfare classes who want everything for nothing and someone to blame for their predicament

Yet SF never brought in any welfare changes, increases or the like. If I wanted something, for anything including nothing, I'd be voting FG/FF.

blanch152 · 28-03-2019 6:04pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Yet SF never brought in any welfare changes, increases or the like. If I wanted something, for anything including nothing, I'd be voting FG/FF.

I've never seen a hurler on the ditch score a point so that isn't surprising.

When faced with difficult decisions in the North, they ran away, citing some scandal, hoping for direct rule to be brought back.

Laois_Man · 28-03-2019 6:39pm

maccored wrote: »

jaysus talk about conspiracy theories

OK, the institutions collapsed due to the Renewable Heat Incentive scandal - which first became a concern in 2013 (and which SF initially tried to prevent an injury on - until they discovered that wouldn't work). It went ahead and in December 2018 completed its hearings - The final report is expected to be published in a couple of months. If the Foster/DUP are cleared of wrongdoing (as they probably will be - because everybody except shinners knows it was only an excuse to bring down Stormount), will SF accept that the devolved parliament can then restart?

Not a chance....coz they have a backup of a problem with the DUPs lack of respect for women, the Irish language and ethnic minorities - but they waited 19 years to decide it was worthy of collapsing the Parliament, and it's a pure coincidence that it happened to occur just as Article 50 was about to be triggered.

Alrighty then

Sunny Disposition · 28-03-2019 6:44pm

Never have before but possibly will now.
The IRA haven't been active for more than 20 years, a long time. It's actually 25 years since the first ceasefire prior to the talks. I abhor what they did, but there was a certain amount of context (not enough to justify bombing and killing civilians) and I don't believe there is any risk of more violence. Plus I feel partition is an important issue that no other party will push, at least not unless a party whose raison d'etre is fighting it becomes prominent. I probably won't vote for them, but they've a good enough candidate over here and he'll get one of my higher preferences.

tipptom · 28-03-2019 6:52pm

joe swanson wrote: »

I would never vote for them. Underneath the or machine they are still the sectarian, murder supporters they always have been.

They are good at appealing to the welfare classes who want everything for nothing and someone to blame for their predicament

No you prefer the sectarian murder machine that the British government brought to Ireland and executed by their army,mi5 spooks while running loyalist murder machines with guns and information to murder Catholics cheered on from the sidelines by the Unionist partys.

You are good at blaming someone else for your predicament when nationalists say enough to the real murder machine and fight back..

Interesting that you say about certain classes want everything for nothing while Stormont was rightly brought down because of a certain wealthy class attempting to divvy up hundreds of millions among themselves for nothing.

BluePlanet · 28-03-2019 6:57pm

I would like to see SF take their seats in WM too, however it would take a seriously strong party leader to abruptly change a policy that the party has since it's creation!

And if Gerry Adams wouldn't do it (or couldn't?) then there is just no way that Mary Lou or Michelle G could.

maccored · 28-03-2019 7:51pm

Laois_Man wrote: »

OK, the institutions collapsed due to the Renewable Heat Incentive scandal - which first became a concern in 2013 (and which SF initially tried to prevent an injury on - until they discovered that wouldn't work). It went ahead and in December 2018 completed its hearings - The final report is expected to be published in a couple of months. If the Foster/DUP are cleared of wrongdoing (as they probably will be - because everybody except shinners knows it was only an excuse to bring down Stormount), will SF accept that the devolved parliament can then restart?

Not a chance....coz they have a backup of a problem with the DUPs lack of respect for women, the Irish language and ethnic minorities - but they waited 19 years to decide it was worthy of collapsing the Parliament, and it's a pure coincidence that it happened to occur just as Article 50 was about to be triggered.

Alrighty then

I cant see the DUP getting cleared. Arlene introduced it and they were basically paying people to burn the fuel (may as well have been since the price was cheaper than the cost) - absolute con or complete stupidity one of the two. Where SF meant to sit there and say nothing?

March 2017 was when article 50 was triggered. This whole hoohaa came to light in Oct/Nov 2016. you'll be telling me SF are psychic next

McMurphy · 28-03-2019 8:49pm

Laois_Man wrote: »

OK, the institutions collapsed due to the Renewable Heat Incentive scandal - which first became a concern in 2013 (and which SF initially tried to prevent an injury on - until they discovered that wouldn't work). It went ahead and in December 2018 completed its hearings - The final report is expected to be published in a couple of months. If the Foster/DUP are cleared of wrongdoing (as they probably will be - because everybody except shinners knows it was only an excuse to bring down Stormount), will SF accept that the devolved parliament can then restart?

Not a chance....coz they have a backup of a problem with the DUPs lack of respect for women, the Irish language and ethnic minorities - but they waited 19 years to decide it was worthy of collapsing the Parliament, and it's a pure coincidence that it happened to occur just as Article 50 was about to be triggered.

Alrighty then

Why do you think they probably will be?

Is it probably, or hopefully?

Laois_Man · 28-03-2019 9:28pm

maccored wrote: »

I cant see the DUP getting cleared. Arlene introduced it and they were basically paying people to burn the fuel (may as well have been since the price was cheaper than the cost) - absolute con or complete stupidity one of the two. Where SF meant to sit there and say nothing?

March 2017 was when article 50 was triggered. This whole hoohaa came to light in Oct/Nov 2016. you'll be telling me SF are psychic next

The scheme had already been closed 9 months before that in February 2016 - due to people abusing it! It came to light in the Summer of 2015...investions started.....and it was closed due to abuse four and a half months before the Brexit referendum. Then after "leave" won, SF suddenly got antsy about it!

January 2017 was when Stormont went down! SF must have been the only people in the entirety of the developed world who didn't know Article 50 was soon to be triggered! Psychic? :rolleyes:

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Why do you think they probably will be?

Is it probably, or hopefully?

I am not in the slightest but arsed about the DUP!

McMurphy · 28-03-2019 9:39pm

Laois_Man wrote: »

I am not in the slightest but arsed about the DUP!

I didn't say you were arsed about the DUP, but there's what I can only describe as an emerging pattern around here where posters want to see things happen (or not as in some cases) as long as it's seen a getting one over on the shinners regardless of what it is.

McMurphy · 28-03-2019 9:49pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I understand this SF's stance.
I just don't get why people would rather have no representation in NI when it matters.
People in NI complain about Brexit for example yet voted for a group that would not defend the views of the majority in NI on the matter. Now they're complaining that whilst NI voted to remain,it looks like they're being forced to leave against their wishes. Someone should be representing these people, not necessarily SF but someone!

In fairness representation for nationalists counts in Westminster also.
Due to the lack of engaged representation for nationalists in NI wihtin Westminster, the DUP are now actively seeking the removal of NI from Europe!

You don't get it because you probably don't want to get it.

Nationalists/Republican people in the north do not wish to be represented by a party in what they see as a foreign government.

S.F as an all island party abstain from what they view as a foreign Parliament, people vote for them (overwhelmingly up there) with full knowledge of that.

The SDLP do take their seats, they're also a Nationalist party, but they're roundly rejected by the electorate.

Why this is frequently "misunderstood" is quite bemusing to me to be honest.

Why don't people understand that some folk on the island view the British govt as a foreign govt, and do not wish their chosen political party to partake in same is beyond me.

Apart from that, it has been done to death on here already that their seats taken/untaken would mean shag all anyway in parliament, and for by that, nationalists already have representation in Brexit talks regardless.

Aren't both the EU and Irish govt representing them?

Seth Brundle · 28-03-2019 10:06pm

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

You don't get it because you probably don't want to get it.

Nationalists/Republican people in the north do not wish to be represented by a party in what they see as a foreign government.

S.F as an all island party abstain from what they view as a foreign Parliament, people vote for them (overwhelmingly up there) with full knowledge of that.

The SDLP do take their seats, they're also a Nationalist party, but they're roundly rejected by the electorate.

Why this is frequently "misunderstood" is quite bemusing to me to be honest.

Why don't people understand that some folk on the island view the British govt as a foreign govt, and do not wish their chosen political party to partake in same is beyond me.

Apart from that, it has been done to death on here already that their seats taken/untaken would mean shag all anyway in parliament, and for by that, nationalists already have representation in Brexit talks regardless.

Aren't both the EU and Irish govt representing them?

Ok then they've absolutely no right to complain that they're leaving the EU. The nationalist people of NI want to engage with the UK via both referenda and elections but don't want to go any further. That's their choice and that's fine, in fact both sides of the dysfunctional place is that both sides are choosing the more extreme parties creating a more polarised society politically.
But because nationalists choose someone that won't represent them, let's not hear them complain about the difficulties arising from leaving the EU because that is, as you say, exactly what they want.

Laois_Man · 28-03-2019 10:14pm

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

I didn't say you were arsed about the DUP, but there's what I can only describe as an emerging pattern around here where posters want to see things happen (or not as in some cases) as long as it's seen a getting one over on the shinners regardless of what it is.

I don’t usually partake in Shinner bashing - but at the same time, I can call their current stance regarding devolved parliament as the tactical positioning I see it as!

McMurphy · 28-03-2019 10:25pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Ok then they've absolutely no right to complain that they're leaving the EU. The nationalist people of NI want to engage with the UK via both referenda and elections but don't want to go any further. That's their choice and that's fine, in fact both sides of the dysfunctional place is that both sides are choosing the more extreme parties creating a more polarised society politically.
But because nationalists choose someone that won't represent them, let's not hear them complain about the difficulties arising from leaving the EU because that is, as you say, exactly what they want.

But they have someone representing them - the EU and Irish govt (I already said this) even if SF took their seats it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference in Westminster, you seem to be ignoring this fact, even though it has been posted over and over and over again in the various Brexit threads.

The nationallists/Republicans consider themselves Irish citizens first and foremost, so what's wrong with them being represented by the Irish govt and EU collectively, who undoubtedly have more clout in the negotiations than SF could ever have in Westminster anyway?

The shinners are playing a blinder imo by sitting back, doing exactly what they said they'd do and watch the DUP make a haimes of things, and the UK self implode.

Seth Brundle · 28-03-2019 10:31pm

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

But they have someone representing them - the EU and Irish govt (I already said this) even if SF took their seats it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference in Westminster, you seem to be ignoring this fact, even though it has been posted over and over and over again in the various Brexit threads.

I didn't suggest they vote for SF or that SF shoukd take their seats in WM. I questioned why NI nationalists chose an abstentionist party knowing the Brexit car crash was coming rather than a party such as the SDLP who would echo their concerns within WM.
Now the nationalists have made their bed, they can lie in it despite the efforts by the EU pushed by (somewhat ironically) FG.

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

The nationallists/Republicans consider themselves Irish citizens first and foremost, so what's wrong with them being represented by the Irish govt and EU collectively, who undoubtedly have more clout in the negotiations than SF could ever have in Westminster anyway?

Because as well they know it, Dublin and Brussels does not oversee their day to day lives.

jm08 · 28-03-2019 10:37pm

Laois_Man wrote: »

The scheme had already been closed 9 months before that in February 2016 - due to people abusing it! It came to light in the Summer of 2015...investions started.....and it was closed due to abuse four and a half months before the Brexit referendum. Then after "leave" won, SF suddenly got antsy about it!

January 2017 was when Stormont went down! SF must have been the only people in the entirety of the developed world who didn't know Article 50 was soon to be triggered! Psychic? :rolleyes:

I actually think its to Sinn Fein's credit that they hung that long with the DUP in an effort to make the Assembly work. I think Arlene (who wasn't long in the job) got a bit too arrogant and should have stepped aside while the enquiry was going on. She refused. In the meantime, there were other problems as well with the Irish Language Act. I think Sinn Fein would have hung in there, but for the mean spirited way the Liofa grants were withdrawn a few days before Christmas (all of about £60Ks worth) was the straw that broke the camel's back with Irish Language supporters and moderate nationalists.

Lets not forget that Sinn Fein had agreed a deal with the DUP to go back into Stormont, but for the DUP to back out (apparently the Orange Order and the Loyalists had a word in their ear).

McMurphy · 28-03-2019 10:41pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I didn't suggest they vote for SF or that SF shoukd take their seats in WM. I questioned why NI nationalists chose an abstentionist party knowing the Brexit car crash was coming rather than a party such as the SDLP who would echo their concerns within WM.
Now the nationalists have made their bed, they can lie in it despite the efforts by the EU pushed by (somewhat ironically) FG.

Because as well they know it, Dublin and Brussels does not oversee their day to day lives.

Which was answered already,

Nationalists/Republican people in the north do not wish to be represented by a party in what they see as a foreign government.

S.F as an all island party abstain from what they view as a foreign Parliament, people vote for them (overwhelmingly up there) with full knowledge of that.

You are seemingly questioning why people in the north wont put aside their principles and suddenly seek representation in a government they view as foreign and having no right to be in Ireland (in their view)

SF receive many of their votes because they choose abstenionism from Britains Parliament, I don't think anyone, not even you would suggest that they suddenly either discard that policy, or alternatively, U-turn on it once elected.

It's not hard to understand IMO.

Seth Brundle · 28-03-2019 10:59pm

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Which was answered already,

You are seemingly questioning why people in the north wont put aside their principles and suddenly seek representation in a government they view as foreign and having no right to be in Ireland (in their view)

SF receive many of their votes because they choose abstenionism from Britains Parliament, I don't think anyone, not even you would suggest that they suddenly either discard that policy, or alternatively, U-turn on it once elected.

It's not hard to understand IMO.

Not once in this thread have I suggested that SF discard their policy of abstention yet you choose to read it that way.
What I said was that I don’t understand why the people of NI chose a party that would not attend WM given what is currently happening.
Now the people of NI face exclusion from the EU partly because of their elected choices.

Why would you vote SF?

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