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Estate agents

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    #92
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Mod Note

    Roisin76, posters to not have to divulge their profession. Stop asking.


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    #93
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,001 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Sono wrote: »
    Bought my house 3 years ago and I have to say if I could have avoided dealing with EA’s I would.

    Impossible to trust them, putting bids on houses through them and was not convinced the bid was being rejected by the vendor or not and often felt I was bidding against myself at times, no transparency whatsoever and I have no proof of what I am saying either but just a feeling I got.

    If we do decide to sell I would much rather do it alone than pay any of them a fee for something we could easily do ourselves. At this moment in time they are a necessary evil which in time will no longer be required thankfully.

    How many times over the years have we read accusations with nothing whatsoever to back them up? The vendor wasn’t being told of my bids and I was bidding against myself, but I have no proof. Jesus wept.


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    #94
    Sono
    Registered Users Posts: 2,376 ✭✭✭Sono


    Dav010 wrote: »
    How many times over the years have we read accusations with nothing whatsoever to back them up? The vendor wasn’t being told of my bids and I was bidding against myself, but I have no proof. Jesus wept.

    You can only base it on your own individual experience and that was mine. Cowboys the lot of em. There should be transparency with bids between buyer and seller to eliminate this element of doubt. Is it any wonder people don’t trust them?

    Edit: it is in the interest of the EA to have a more transparent bidding system also so people don’t doubt their credibility.


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    #95
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,001 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Sono wrote: »
    You can only base it on your own individual experience and that was mine. Cowboys the lot of em..

    Was the house you bought so unappealing that nobody else would be interested in bidding on it? Was your first offer so good that the seller could not have turned it down?


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    #96
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    utmbuilder wrote: »
    I believe auctioneera is a few people based out of Cork or Galway...
    They have a premises in Dublin, but its not a typical estate agent office with a big plate glass window. More like a commercial office building.
    jimwallace197 wrote: »
    People can make up their own minds but I'm pretty sure, the more people that try out these services, the more they will realize they are a waste of time when they see their property selling for less than what it could have but they managed to save 700/800 euros in estate fees.
    The saving is more than that. It could be €6K on a €400K house. There's a sliding scale on the website showing exactly what it would be.
    I think the selling price is usually set by whatever the neighbouring houses have sold for recently, not by the particular agent handling the sale.


    From the buyer's point of view, the more interesting thing is the fact that every bid goes up on the website in a fully transparent way. This could bring an end to all sorts of chicanery when it catches on.


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    #97
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,344 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Can I ask ye folks, how does the photography aspect work with your local estate agents?

    I'm a photographer and recently a friend of a friend sold their house. Asked me to take the photos for them. I didn't charge them as they're good friends with my brother, and as I don't know them well enough, I didn't want to be overly nosey. But I got the impression that the Estate Agent was charging extra/separately for photography (and I am guessing at a mark up price, as he's a middle man and will want a few euro on top of what the photographer gets).


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    #98
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,001 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    recedite wrote: »
    They have a big premises in Dublin, but its not a typical estate agent office with a big plate glass window. More like a commercial office building.

    The saving is more than that. It could be €7,500 on a €400K house. There's a sliding scale on the website showing exactly what it would be.


    From the buyer's point of view, the more interesting thing is the fact that every bid goes up on the website in a fully transparent way. This could bring an end to all sorts of chicanery when it catches on.

    Out of interest, is there anything to stop someone who isn’t actually interested putting a bid in, and the bid showing online, therefore pushing the price up?

    I’ve always thought one of the benefits of an EA is that through experience, they are often able to assess the buyer. EAs have told me at various times that a buyer is a messer/is struggling to sell their own property/ has bids on multiple properties etc which meant I considered other bidders.


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    #99
    Dolbhad
    Registered Users Posts: 782 ✭✭✭Dolbhad


    The only thing about the online bids on auctioneera was the countdown. I just found no one placed bids until the last few hours so not sure if that help seller or not as weeks of nothing happening.

    I’m trying to buy a house so yes I find auctioneers can be difficult to deal with. But they don’t work for me. They work for the seller. I found some auctioneers great to deal with and some not. But if you get a good one I think their worth the money (from a sellers point of view).

    I do find an issue at the moment with sellers generally where house can be on market for months and won’t reduce price as it’s overvalued. I think auctioneers should let sellers know it be be overpriced but generally sellers don’t budge. I’ve been under bidders in property and auctioneer has let me know when a similar price house is coming up. I’ve had auctioneers ask us about our circumstances and look for proof of funds to make sure our bids are genuine. I didn’t get this with a solely online place and as a seller that’s what I’d want. To have the time wasters weeded out and have an auctioneer with a list of potential purchasers at the ready to buy and quickly.

    Also had a friend buy a house in a probate sale. The children didn’t get on and one of them appointed a solicitor old school who was very difficult to deal with. Just refused to give the necessary paperwork and sure all the kids couldn’t agree. Her solicitor at the end when she got keys said the only reason it got through was the auctioneer. In the end when her solicitor neeed something, she want to the auctioneer who manage to keep his clients in line and agree - something the solicitor had no interest in doing. Auctioneer didnt just go my job is done as I’ve found the purchasers. So you get good auctioneers and bad. However like most things you pay for what you get.


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    #100
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Out of interest, is there anything to stop someone who isn’t actually interested putting a bid in, and the bid showing online, therefore pushing the price up?

    I’ve always thought one of the benefits of an EA is that through experience, they are often able to assess the buyer. EAs have told me at various times that a buyer is a messer/is struggling to sell their own property/ has bids on multiple properties etc which meant I considered other bidders.
    I can't say for sure, but AFAIK bids could be filtered in the usual way by the EA. Its not an online auction as such, open to random anonymous internet users. The EA would have already met the bidder at a viewing of the property.


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    #101
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,001 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    recedite wrote: »
    I can't say for sure, but AFAIK bids could be filtered in the usual way by the EA. Its not an online auction as such, open to random anonymous internet users. The EA would have already met the bidder at a viewing of the property.

    But in terms of transparency, is it actually anymore transparent? Isn’t it just a way of publishing bids rather than a check on their authenticity?


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    #102
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Dav010 wrote: »
    But in terms of transparency, is it actually anymore transparent? Isn’t it just a way of publishing bids rather than a check on their authenticity?
    Put it this way, if you are genuinely interested, and you make a bid, you can see the bid there, and that it has gone public. So you know the seller and any other bidders are definitely aware of your bid. Previously you had to trust the EA to make sure all that happened.


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    #103
    JoeA3
    Registered Users Posts: 7,406 ✭✭✭JoeA3


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Can I ask ye folks, how does the photography aspect work with your local estate agents?

    I'm a photographer and recently a friend of a friend sold their house. Asked me to take the photos for them. I didn't charge them as they're good friends with my brother, and as I don't know them well enough, I didn't want to be overly nosey. But I got the impression that the Estate Agent was charging extra/separately for photography (and I am guessing at a mark up price, as he's a middle man and will want a few euro on top of what the photographer gets).

    From my experience in recent weeks...
    Some of the smaller EA's just take the photos themselves and by and large seem to do a reasonable job of it.
    The slightly larger operators tend to give you the option - they'll do it or charge you a fee for as professional (about €140). I don't think they (the EA) was taking very much, if any cut, as I know the photographer himself quoted a friend of mine the same number when contacted directly.
    The big guns (Sherry Fitz, etc) only offer the professional photos option (along with glossy brochures, newspaper ads, etc).

    I felt the professional photos were worth the few quid outlay.


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    #104
    JoeA3
    Registered Users Posts: 7,406 ✭✭✭JoeA3


    Something else I've noticed personally when selling in the last few weeks...

    Buyers are very cagey and hesitant to "show their hand" - understandably enough. For example, I know my house has drawn strong interest from 2 neighbours, but I have no idea which neighbours! They never approached me directly and I have a feeling that if I was selling it myself (with no EA), that they would never have declared an interest.

    What I mean is, its a huge financial transaction for a potential buyer and dealing with an EA gives a buyer a certain degree of comfort that everything is "above board" and I think some people might find it extra awkward to show their hand to someone they actually know, a neighbour / acquaintance or whatever, particularly if it doesn't work out.


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    #105
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,001 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    recedite wrote: »
    Put it this way, if you are genuinely interested, and you make a bid, you can see the bid there, and that it has gone public. So you know the seller and any other bidders are definitely aware of your bid. Previously you had to trust the EA to make sure all that happened.

    Put it this way, what is stopping a Seller/EA from making up/getting an associate to make a bid which is then posted online to push up price? Again, posting bids online is no more proof of authenticity then an EA telling you what current high bid is, both could be truthful, both could be made up.

    I really don’t get why you think a seller isn’t told of bids, why are people so sure of this? The EA works for the seller, what is the benefit of not telling the seller? I have often told EAs not to bother me with bids below a certain level, they are the equivalent of tyre kickers on a car forecourt.


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    #106
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Dav010 wrote: »
    The EA works for the seller, what is the benefit of not telling the seller?
    Maybe the EA has a preferred buyer. Sometimes a developer or investor who is an old mate of the EA buys it. Then the EA gets the rental deal, or gets to sell it again later. Who knows what backhanders go on. Maybe none.


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    #107
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,001 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    recedite wrote: »
    Maybe the EA has a preferred buyer. Sometimes a developer or investor who is an old mate of the EA buys it. Then the EA gets the rental deal, or gets to sell it again later. Who knows what backhanders go on. Maybe none.

    Have you any evidence of this? Even a scintilla. How many EAs do this? This really is silly conspiracy stuff, capped off with the obligatory “who knows”, not you apparently.

    I’m sure there are bad EAs, there are bad people in every trade/profession, but to apply sweeping statements of dishonesty to a whole sector, is just well, moronic.


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    #108
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Have you any evidence of this? Even a scintilla. How many EAs do this? This really is silly conspiracy stuff, capped off with the obligatory “who knows”, not you apparently.
    You should have no problem with greater transparency so.


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    #109
    q85dw7osi4lebg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,502 ✭✭✭q85dw7osi4lebg


    recedite wrote: »
    Maybe the EA has a preferred buyer. Sometimes a developer or investor who is an old mate of the EA buys it. Then the EA gets the rental deal, or gets to sell it again later. Who knows what backhanders go on. Maybe none.

    :pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:


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    #110
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,001 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    recedite wrote: »
    You should have no problem with greater transparency so.

    I have absolutely no issue whatsoever with greater transparency, I welcome it, but I also understand that putting up bids online is no guarantee of transparency, in carries about the same authenticity guarantee as verbal information, you simply don’t know if it is real.


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    #111
    Roisin76
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 29 ✭Roisin76


    Dav010 wrote: »
    I have absolutely no issue whatsoever with greater transparency, I welcome it, but I also understand that putting up bids online is no guarantee of transparency, in carries about the same authenticity guarantee as verbal information, you simply don’t know if it is real.

    You're in a denial a here. Transparent bids could be made resistant to meddling and manipulation by either side.

    Transparency and openness vs secret and opacity. Traditional EAs chose the former to protect their turf. The new players try to bring transparency to the playground, so no wonder the old folks would do anything to keep the status quo. It is a lucrative business. The thing is, you can't stop the progress.


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    #112
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,001 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Roisin76 wrote: »
    You're in denial a here. Transparent bids could be made resistant to meddling and manipulation by either side.

    Transparency and openness vs secret and opacity. Traditional EAs chose the former to protect their turf. The new players try to bring transparency to the playground, so no wonder the old folks would do anything they can to stop these new folks. The thing is, you can't stop the progress.

    I really don’t think you understand.

    Posting the bids online for all to see allows buyers to see the bids, but what can’t be done is showing who the bidders are and if they are genuine. Put simply, if you feel sellers/EAs are manipulating the process, posting bids online would not change this.


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    #113
    Roisin76
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 29 ✭Roisin76


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Have you any evidence of this? Even a scintilla. How many EAs do this? This really is silly conspiracy stuff, capped off with the obligatory “who knows”, not you apparently.

    Anecdotal evidence by many who dealt with EAs in the recent months. Bad, dishonest practices like that are nearly impossible to prove and even when EA caught red handed it's unlikely client would push the case forward.

    The burden here should be on the vendor/EA to demonstrate honesty and integrity and not on the customer to try to prove otherwise. It's a no brainer really. Not sure why there's even a discussion about that.


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    #114
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    anecdotal statistics show 99.9% of potential purchaser assume underhand behaviour if they are ever outbid

    ;)


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    #115
    Roisin76
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 29 ✭Roisin76


    Dav010 wrote: »
    I really don’t think you understand.

    Posting the bids online for all to see allows buyers to see the bids, but what can’t be done is showing who the bidders are and if they are genuine. Put simply, if you feel sellers/EAs are manipulating the process, posting bids online would not change this.

    There are ways. First you verify the identity, do some basic background checks. If you sign up for an auction, you need to bring a deposit beforehand. Why not secure deposits from buyers before allowing the bids? I'm just throwing some ideas here. This is definitely doable and if current EAs like moovingo cannot do that properly, they will improve or be replaced by better ones. Simple.


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    #116
    Roisin76
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 29 ✭Roisin76


    Graham wrote: »
    anecdotal statistics show 99.9% of potential purchaser assume underhand behaviour if they are ever outbid

    ;)

    What do you think stats % would be if bids were made transparent?


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    #117
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Roisin76 wrote: »
    What do you think stats % would be if bids were made transparent?

    99% of potential purchasers outbid would assume underhand behaviour behind the transparent bids.


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    #118
    Roisin76
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 29 ✭Roisin76


    Graham wrote: »
    99% of potential purchasers outbid would assume underhand behaviour behind the transparent bids.

    But fake bids are fine as long as the seller is aware. If that's how the seller wants to play it then that's OK. What I suspect is that EAs play various dishonest games with no seller's knowledge or consent. Currently nor seller can be sure he gets the highest bid passed, nor buyer can be sure his bid goes to seller.

    As somebody else wrote some pages before. He was able to 'secure' a property cheap as he was a friend of an EA. Doesn't sound as an honest practice if true.


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    #119
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    While I have no doubt online agencies will grow, it is going to take more than a couple of anecdotes to convince me there are more corrupt EAs than paranoid buyers.


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    #120
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,001 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Graham wrote: »
    While I have no doubt online agencies will grow, it is going to take more than a couple of anecdotes to convince me there are more corrupt EAs than paranoid buyers.

    I think the benefit of online agencies will be that there will be a set price for all sales due to the fact that there will be virtually no offices and few staff costs. But their success will still be dependent on selling the property for the maximum amount, which in turn will leave them open to the same old accusations by disaffected underbidders. I won’t be long before people like Roisin76 believe that they are posting made up bids to push up the price or just because they didn’t get the property.


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    #121
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,146 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    jimwallace197 wrote: »
    Yah, you wonder, in other words you dont have a clue what you are talking about and unless you have some experience of actually working in the industry, then would be better off not promoting misinformed opinions.
    Have you evidence that proves my opinions misinformed?

    The only data I've ever seen on the industry was US based and indicated that realtors would tend to achieve a higher selling price when selling their own properties (Freakonomics).

    How much value does an estate agent quantifiably bring to the table? And does this value exceed their commission?


This discussion has been closed.
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