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Why would you vote SF?

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 19,385 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    I’ve no idea why anyone in the south would vote SF. In the north they have a clearly defined purpose and role. Unless you’re a life long dole head then they offer absolutely nothing and even then given their Zaney “economics” such people are better off under FG FF regimes which have broadly offered economic stability


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    bilbot79 wrote: »
    Presumably they hold the only real hope of reuniting the country, a romantic idea that few want to let go of
    No unionist is going to vote for an 32 county Ireland if they think SF will be in power. We've tried the IRA approach of ethnic slaughter of unionists to force them into a United Ireland and it failed. A Marxist republic isn't going to be attractive either.

    The best hope for getting unionists to agree (and it has to an agreement) is through convincing them that they will be economically better off & their culture will be respected in a United Ireland, neither of which are SF strong points.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭bilbot79


    christy c wrote: »

    Personally I wouldn't go near them due to the nonsense they proposed around the time of the bailout. If we had taken that approach we would be in a far worse position than we are now IMO, even taking in to account our current problems.

    Theres no way of knowing that. There was definitely an argument at the time for burning bondholders and only Gerry Adams was advocating it. We would definitely have had the 'nuclear winter's of job losses etc that Brian Lenihan predicted but lots of problems would have been solved.

    Today's economy seems great because millennials are spending deposit money on coffee and burgers. The bottom will soon fall out of that and we may wish we'd gone Icelandic


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭bilbot79


    hmmm wrote: »
    No unionist is going to vote for an 32 county Ireland if they think SF will be in power. We've tried the IRA approach of ethnic slaughter of unionists to force them into a United Ireland and it failed. A Marxist republic isn't going to be attractive either.

    The best hope for getting unionists to agree (and it has to an agreement) is through convincing them that they will be economically better off & their culture will be respected in a United Ireland, neither of which are SF strong points.

    100% agree. But we're it not for SF the moderate Irish parties would probably just drop the idea of a United ireland


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,799 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    bilbot79 wrote:
    Today's economy seems great because millennials are spending deposit money on coffee and burgers. The bottom will soon fall out of that and we may wish we'd gone Icelandic


    Bond holders should have taken some sort of hit, and austerity is failing, not only in this country, we should be asking ourselves some serious questions regarding our financial sector, but we re largely not. This approach has lead to events such as trump, Brexit and a rise of the right. Millennials are getting screwed by these actions, as they have lead to further asset price inflation, low wage inflation and overall increasing worker insecurity, but thankfully some millennials have had enough, and are taking action, it ll be interesting to see how successful they are.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭christy c


    bilbot79 wrote: »
    Theres no way of knowing that. There was definitely an argument at the time for burning bondholders and only Gerry Adams was advocating it. We would definitely have had the 'nuclear winter's of job losses etc that Brian Lenihan predicted but lots of problems would have been solved.

    True, there's no way of knowing what would have happened, we can only make reasonable assumptions based on what we were told they would do.

    I don't remember Gerry saying his proposals would lead to any nuclear winter of job losses or anything of the sort, maybe I missed that but I do remember soundbites like "a fairer way".


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,064 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    I agree with SF's desire for a united Ireland.

    I agree with them that housing, healthcare and income inequality are problems.

    I don't agree with their planned solutions.

    They plan fairly large income tax increases on many earners over 35k approx.

    OK, I would be reluctantly willing to agree to this if the funds were spent on infrastructure.

    Not welfare increases for able-bodied adults.

    Not excessive increases in PS numbers.

    However, I can't trust them on that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭BalcombeSt4


    Whataboutery much? :p

    Yes, and? If the point is true so what? That's a SF came up with no? I don't support Sinn Fein.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    bilbot79 wrote: »
    100% agree. But we're it not for SF the moderate Irish parties would probably just drop the idea of a United ireland

    SF don't own the idea of a united Ireland. Enda Kenny was getting all teary eyed at the prospect on his way out. If it looks to be popular FF/FG will start to get louder about it.
    road_high wrote: »
    I’ve no idea why anyone in the south would vote SF. In the north they have a clearly defined purpose and role. Unless you’re a life long dole head then they offer absolutely nothing and even then given their Zaney “economics” such people are better off under FG FF regimes which have broadly offered economic stability

    Yet we keep forgiving FF for actually destroying the economy and FG for overseeing record breaking societal crises. A car careening off a cliff is stable until it runs out of road.
    Also do you truly believe any party advocates welfare for those, to quote Ned Flanders, 'Just don't want to work, God bless 'em'?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭BalcombeSt4


    christy c wrote: »
    That's the usual "look over there" response when SF's economic policies are mentioned. What's your view on them leaving aside your views on FF & FG?

    Personally I wouldn't go near them due to the nonsense they proposed around the time of the bailout. If we had taken that approach we would be in a far worse position than we are now IMO, even taking in to account our current problems.

    I would vote Sinn Fein over FF & FG but I'd rather vote for a real Labour party that actually benefits the working class & unions.

    A lot of people are slamming SF's economic policy but haven't actually said pointed out what parts will "bankrupt" us. Could it be worse than Dev's backward trade war with Britian, or the policies that led to mass immigration from the 1950's - 80's.

    Like does SF support
    • Nationalization of industries
    • Workers councils
    • Collectivism
    • Mixed economy
    • Workers control over production
    • Calculation in Kind
    • State capitalism
    • Cooperatives
    • Planned economy
    Like what is there economic philosophy?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    It goes back to options. Pre 2011 I was full on Labour and a few Indies. Often I might give SF a nod. Went Lab/FG in 2011. Now I'm pretty much anyone but FF/FG. I've written off Labour. So I'd be more inclined to vote Indies/SD/SF these days. That's based on the performance and track records of FF/FG. That's why I'd vote SF. It's tough to sit back and read about the disaster of a SF in government from people often advocating support for the bulls**t 'stability' con of FF/FG*.
    Labour really blew it. They could have been a close third in the current running if they showed political ethics.

    *Disclaimer: I am not for one minute suggesting any person in this forum or thread supports Fine Gael. No insult intended.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭bilbot79


    christy c wrote: »
    True, there's no way of knowing what would have happened, we can only make reasonable assumptions based on what we were told they would do.

    I don't remember Gerry saying his proposals would lead to any nuclear winter of job losses or anything of the sort, maybe I missed that but I do remember soundbites like "a fairer way".

    Gerry said burn the bondholders, Lenihan said no because he refused to impose a nuclear winter of job losses on the country..cue bailout


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭christy c


    bilbot79 wrote: »
    Gerry said burn the bondholders, Lenihan said no because he refused to impose a nuclear winter of job losses on the country..cue bailout

    Did I pick you up wrong? I thought you said that Gerry's plan would definitely have led to the nuclear winter...? If thats not what you meant then apologies, but I don't remember Gerry mentioning any of the downsides of his approach.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,174 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    bilbot79 wrote: »
    Theres no way of knowing that. There was definitely an argument at the time for burning bondholders and only Gerry Adams was advocating it. We would definitely have had the 'nuclear winter's of job losses etc that Brian Lenihan predicted but lots of problems would have been solved.

    Today's economy seems great because millennials are spending deposit money on coffee and burgers. The bottom will soon fall out of that and we may wish we'd gone Icelandic


    https://business.financialpost.com/news/economy/a-decade-after-financial-collapse-iceland-faces-a-new-economic-crisis


    "Just as Iceland looks back at a decade of recovery since its financial and economic collapse, the north Atlantic island is once again grappling with an existential challenge for one of its key industries."

    https://grapevine.is/mag/articles/2018/12/18/cruising-or-crashing-icelands-economy-in-2019/

    "The double-digit growth rates of the past few years were unsustainable and undesirable. The state and industry have failed to build infrastructure and regulate effectively. This has led to a severe housing shortage, labour abuses and environmental damage."


    https://skift.com/2019/01/16/why-icelands-tourism-boom-may-finally-be-over/

    https://www.ccn.com/wtf-wowair-tailspin-threatens-to-tank-icelands-economy

    "According to a local government task force, Wow Air’s bankruptcy could impact Iceland’s GDP by 3 percent and weaken the Króna by as much as 13 percent. Other forecasts claim as much as a 10 percent drop in exports and a 6 percent increase in inflation."

    Iceland appears to have made the same mistakes all over again. It put all its apples in the banking basket and paid a price, to recover, it put all its apples in the tourism basket which is now quickly running out of steam.

    I am amazed that people still try to point to Iceland as a success.


  • Registered Users Posts: 329 ✭✭The_Fitz


    People vote SF in the north mostly in line with their political aspiration. This political aspiration has been at the forefront of their minds for 50 years. Watching the destruction of a sectarian state, and the resulting economic stagnation (and then Brexit) has left the most passive of small 'n' nationalists as supporters of SF.

    People of voting age who know nothing of violence except for a few mortar tubes found behind a Centra will vote SF mainly due to their desire for a UI but also what they see as a progressive party (obviously extremely debatable, but that is how they are viewed). Same sex marriage/abortion/flags etc all take their toll on people who were once happy to keep the status quo.

    Their militant history happens to have taken place more recently than other political parties, hence the closer scrutiny and criticism.

    A lot of people vote for SF even though they disagree with them, as a vote for them is perceived as a vote for a UI. It would be interesting if a UI did happen where these votes would go (if anywhere).

    They also vote for them on an abstentionist ticket, and for them to enter a 'foreign' parliament would not go down well.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,167 ✭✭✭Good loser


    If they're going to abstain from Westminster why don't they just not put up candidates?


    Of course that would be logical - not something they major in.


  • Registered Users Posts: 88 ✭✭John2136


    Wtf ? wrote: »
    They were voted into Stormont, They pulled out ?, They have seats in House of Commons, They don't attend (But collect expenses) They could be in London now downing the DUP and helping the no border brexit thing but they aint. They talk the talk etc. Why bother with them really. Flushing your ballot paper down the toilet would be better methinks. They are a wasted vote

    SF were more than just a political party in the north of Ireland during the troubles they were even the police service from 1975/76 (can't remember which) since the police weren't accepted in nationalist areas and they literally could not police in them areas it was agreed between the British government and the IRA that SF incident centers would be set up so the Catholic areas could keep some sort of law and order which made SF/IRA the police in Catholic areas, for matters within the community, like burglary, threats etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Good loser wrote: »
    If they're going to abstain from Westminster why don't they just not put up candidates?


    Of course that would be logical - not something they major in.

    Because by not putting up candidates they don't give a voice to the nationalist community who show their disdain for the UK's position in Ireland by voting for abstentionist candidates.

    There is nothing stopping people in those constituencies voting for any number of of other parties. But they choose to vote for an abstentionist party. Who have had the same policy for over 100 years.

    PEOPLE VOTE FOR SF IN THE NORTH BECAUSE THEY ABSTAIN!

    I know the logic is tough for some to get into their heads. But sure, here we are. Explaining the same thing on a weekly basis has become de rigueur around these parts.


  • Registered Users Posts: 88 ✭✭John2136


    Good loser wrote: »
    If they're going to abstain from Westminster why don't they just not put up candidates?


    Of course that would be logical - not something they major in.

    Because if you knew anything about Northern Ireland you would know why but you don't have a clue so it would be logical if you don't talk about the subject.


  • Registered Users Posts: 66,822 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Good loser wrote: »
    If they're going to abstain from Westminster why don't they just not put up candidates?


    Of course that would be logical - not something they major in.

    It's entirely logical imo.

    It is a constant 'poll' which says that a significant amount of people want a future that does not involve being ruled from Westminster.

    That's 100 years of a consistent position.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 554 ✭✭✭Creol1


    Because by not putting up candidates they don't give a voice to the nationalist community who show their disdain for the UK's position in Ireland by voting for abstentionist candidates.

    There is nothing stopping people in those constituencies voting for any number of of other parties. But they choose to vote for an abstentionist party. Who have had the same policy for over 100 years.

    Actually the Provisionals only started contesting Westminster Elections with the election of Bobby Sands.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    Good loser wrote: »
    If they're going to abstain from Westminster why don't they just not put up candidates?


    Of course that would be logical - not something they major in.

    You might find this article very informative.
    For 100 years now, Irish republicans have refused to validate British sovereignty over the island of Ireland by sitting in the parliament of Westminster. As an abstentionist Sinn F MP, I can provide an Irish republican perspective on this issue.

    To the British public, it may seem strange to stand for election to an institution and then refuse to participate in that institution. For British citizens with a progressive world view, and those with an anti-Brexit disposition, it might appear logical to take these seats, and for British MPs that is entirely logical – because the Westminster parliament is the democratic institution that makes decisions on behalf of the British people.

    In recent weeks, in the light of Brexit negotiations and the Conservatives’ fragile majority propped up by the Democratic Unionist party, there have been calls from various quarters for Sinn F MPs to abandon the Irish republican principle of abstentionism and take part in the British parliament. A debate has opened up around this principle, particularly for a British audience which may not be aware of its political significance in Ireland.

    Westminster does not now act – and never has acted – other than in the interests of Britain. As our difficult and troubled history tells us, the interests of the Irish people have rarely been the concern of the British government or parliament. In fact, these institutions have often acted against the interests of the Irish people – not just in the past, but as we are seeing now, through the efforts to drag us out of Europe against the democratically expressed wishes of the people in the north of Ireland.

    The crucial point here is that we are not British MPs. We are Irish MPs and we believe the interests of the Irish people can only be served by democratic institutions on the island of Ireland. Sinn F goes to the electorate seeking a mandate for that position. We are elected as MPs by people who vote for Sinn F not to take seats at Westminster.

    As MPs, therefore, we take no part in the Westminster parliament but in every other way we provide active representation for our constituents. We engage with British political parties, civic society and the Irish diaspora in Britain. We challenge the British government directly in our meetings with them. We lobby on constituents’ issues, and on all the political matters that affect the Irish people. We do all of this without drawing a salary from Westminster, or by taking our seats in the British parliament.

    Fundamentally, we believe that Britain and its political institutions should have no part in governing the people of Ireland. Why then, as Irish citizens, would we want to make decisions on behalf of the people of Britain?

    The nature of the political and economic implications of British rule in Ireland has changed during this century, but the desire of Irish people to determine our own fortunes has not wilted.

    The view of Westminster from Belfast is profoundly different to the view from Brighton or Bradford. Many Irish citizens in the north of Ireland view Westminster as a parliament that facilitated and supported 50 years of anti-Irish apartheid and supremacist sectarian rule in their towns and villages. They see a parliament that excused and endorsed the murder of Irish citizens by the British state during a period of conflict.

    They see Westminster as the parliament that has denied them basic economic and political sovereignty, and decimated public services and social protections for the most vulnerable citizens.

    Westminster is not their parliament, and never will be. That was demonstrated most cynically when, in 1981, the people of Fermanagh and South Tyrone elected the hunger striker Bobby Sands as their MP. Rather than recognise him as a political prisoner (how much more political can you get?), the Westminster parliament voted to stop this happening again. The lesson for the electorate of Fermanagh and South Tyrone, and the Irish people more widely, was clear: if we don’t like who you elect, we will change the rules to prevent you doing this.

    The Irish people now see a parliament that runs roughshod over the integrity of their democratically expressed decision by enforcing Brexit upon them, threatening disruption to their border communities, and to their most basic rights and livelihoods.


    The people of Ireland will not find a solution to Brexit in the parliament that is imposing it. On Brexit, Irish people in the north look to Sinn F, to the Irish government, the Irish parliament and to Europe to defend their interests.

    Westminster cannot provide the solutions when Westminster is the problem. Its role in Ireland has never been positive. Numerically, culturally and politically, the people of Ireland are inconsequential to Britain’s ambitions.

    Westminster has always turned its back on the people of Ireland, so the people have turned their backs resolutely on the British parliament.

    This year republicans and progressives in Ireland celebrate the election of the first female MP to the British parliament 100 years ago. Her name was Constance Markievicz. She never sat in the Westminster parliament. She was an Irish republican, a feminist, a socialist, and a member of Sinn F elected on an abstentionist mandate – rejecting Britain’s claim to sovereignty over Ireland.

    One hundred years later I am proud to follow in the footsteps of radical pioneers such as Markievicz.

    In 2017, I and other MPs were elected on a mandate to actively abstain from Westminster. We intend to honour that mandate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭RainNeverBow


    To vote out corruption and for progress. Simple enough really


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,831 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    To vote out corruption and for progress. Simple enough really
    Looking at the current government, how have they been corrupt?
    What do you mean by progress?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Looking at the current government, how have they been corrupt?
    What do you mean by progress?

    There's no proven corruption currently, a little inappropriate behaviour and dinners is all. Some 'looking after our own' and the like.
    As regards progress I would cite any of the worsening societal crises that break records. Or if we are talking moving forward with projects or new builds, I'd cite the childrens hospital with both a health minister and finance minister claiming they knew nothing about any over spend, well an over spend but not the bigger figure. But still 'the others would be worse' and so on.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,831 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Are you the official spokesperson for RainNeverBow?
    There's no proven corruption currently, a little inappropriate behaviour and dinners is all. Some 'looking after our own' and the like.
    So no corruption then :rolleyes:
    As regards progress I would cite any of the worsening societal crises that break records. Or if we are talking moving forward with projects or new builds, I'd cite the childrens hospital with both a health minister and finance minister claiming they knew nothing about any over spend, well an over spend but not the bigger figure.
    I'd put that down to the incompetence provided by the civil servants rather than political incompetence but I doubt we'll ever know the full facts.
    Nonetheless I don't see it changing with a different government, SF or otherwise.
    But still 'the others would be worse' and so on.
    Are you trying to quote something that I didn't say?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Are you the official spokesperson for RainNeverBow?


    So no corruption then :rolleyes:


    I'd put that down to the incompetence provided by the civil servants rather than political incompetence but I doubt we'll ever know the full facts.
    Nonetheless I don't see it changing with a different government, SF or otherwise.

    Are you trying to quote something that I didn't say?

    No. If you want a private one on one there's the PM option.
    No corruption shown so far, no.
    There needs to be accountability not some lads who are happy with the salary and prestige but not being accountable.
    I do. Somethings may be worse but then again others would need Olympian effort to be worse, (re: record breaking).
    If I was quoting you I'd quote you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 880 ✭✭✭JPCN1


    Looking at the current government, how have they been corrupt?
    What do you mean by progress?

    Same type of Venezuelan progress I'd imagine.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    JPCN1 wrote: »
    Same type of Venezuelan progress I'd imagine.

    Bankrupt the country, bailout the banks and wealthy, while leaving the average person to deal with austerity and the bill coupled with growing record breaking crises year on year? SF wanting to give social housing a good spin is enough for me to put them above the failed policies of FF/FG.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 88 ✭✭John2136


    There is actually one very good reason to vote Sinn Fein, Sinn Fein MPs only take the average wage of an adult which is about 30,000 a year, this is so they can be on more of a level with the problems and life most people in the country live.

    Then you have the rest of the MPs of other parties voting to give themselves a raise when they are already on around a hundred grand a year.


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