Surrogacy

jimmycrackcorm · 18-04-2021 10:36pm

volchitsa wrote:

Yes the kidney can't go on to suffer from being abused or neglected.

Creating a child away in order to give away to strangers is a far more serious thing to do.

Another absurd point. Why would a couple choose to go through the difficult process and enormous expense to have a child that they want to accuse and neglect.

I seriously doubt any surrogate child has ever been treated that way, yet plenty of children birthed from normal circumstances do.

Also it's poor form to include and condemn people who give up children for adoption when they aren't able to raise them

[Deleted User] · 18-04-2021 10:41pm

volchitsa wrote: »

Yes the kidney can't go on to suffer from being abused or neglected.

Creating a child away in order to give away to strangers is a far more serious thing to do.

By giving birth to it, you have some responsibility for its future happiness, and no control over that.

What about mothers who give their children up for adoption? They gave birth to that child yet for their own reasons they are giving over responsibility to someone else.

volchitsa · 19-04-2021 12:16am

and in the morning Diamonds of Frost wrote: »

What about mothers who give their children up for adoption? They gave birth to that child yet for their own reasons they are giving over responsibility to someone else.

It’s one of the reasons why adoption is often so hard for the woman. But usually they didn’t set out to get pregnant so it’s more a case of finding the les worst option. That’s why I said in surrogacy the child is deliberately created for that reason - to be sold for money.

YellowLead · 19-04-2021 12:29am

volchitsa wrote: »

It’s one of the reasons why adoption is often so hard for the woman. But usually they didn’t set out to get pregnant so it’s more a case of finding the les worst option. That’s why I said in surrogacy the child is deliberately created for that reason - to be sold for money.

I think the child is created because two people very badly want a child to love and raise. The surrogate, whatever her reasons, facilitates that.

kaymin · 19-04-2021 1:08am

Deleted User wrote: »

My second hand car sales person said my car is a fantastic buy. Has always been brilliantly looked after, apparently. Never even one single bump of a kerb! Previously owned by one extremely careful nun in an enclosed order.

So much judgement. I know of a couple that used a Ukrainian surrogate. They had video calls with her throughout the pregnancy when they could ask her any question they wanted including how she was being treated by the clinic and have maintained contact with her more than 2 years since the birth of their child.

The surrogate mother took great pride in giving the couple the opportunity to become parents. The money she earned has helped her buy a house for her own family - she's a single mother. She had zero interest in their son but was happy to see the odd picture and to know she played such a key role in other people's happiness. That's one experience and is the most common experience from everything I've read about it.

One eyed Jack · 19-04-2021 4:40am

volchitsa wrote: »

Most people are absolutely fine with only one kidney.
On the other hand my back has never got back to normal after pregnancy, and I have pretty much constant back pain now. The solution seems to be to put up with it, sh1t happens.

Your individual experience of pregnancy and giving birth is hardly a reasonable basis to counter the idea that most women who give birth do not suffer any adverse effects of pregnancy or giving birth? In any case I don’t think anyone has argued that any woman should just put up with the adverse effects of pregnancy and giving birth, in just the same way as I would suggest that people who avail of surrogacy in order to become parents would be unlikely to be satisfied with being told they can’t have children, shìt happens. Your individual circumstances are not an argument against surrogacy, but they’re certainly an argument for better treatment of women who are or were pregnant or have given birth.

machiavellianme wrote: »

Why? Biologically, it's their child. Would you expect your parents to tell you about the night they did the deed to create you in great detail?

As Maryanne pointed out, it’s not true in all circumstances that a child borne of surrogacy has a biological connection to their parents, but they are no different to any child in respect of the fact that every person has a right to know their origins as part of their identity. That doesn’t entail anyone explaining to their children their origins in great detail. What little evidence there is available suggests that the earlier people are aware of their origins, the long term outcomes are more favourable than if their origins are withheld from them. The same sort of arguments arise regarding adoption and IVF as regards individuals rights to their identity.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Heh. Maybe not. Maybe the kids will be strict vegan anti globalist climate warriors who dedicate their lives to protesting against the exploitation of poor enslaved banana and coffee farmers, and they might very well feel wtf if they find out their birth mother was in distressed financial straits owing rent for example and made the decision to rent their womb to provide a baby via an agency who was facilitating people from richer countries to buy surrogacy services in poorer countries. Whatcha gonna say to them then, much ado about nothing, be modern, open minded and freewheeling like me kiddo?

It will not be commonplace for economically better off people to rent poorer women's wombs or purchase babies in the future - I think on the contrary it will be widely understood to not be a value neutral activity.
In fact in spite of your seemingly bohemian attitude that all is groovy, and people who object are throwback cracpots, the truth is it is already completely illegal to do so in many places in the world. For good reason.

Do you honestly think it’s reasonable to suggest that the parents of children born by surrogacy will explain the origins of their children in the same way as you’re choosing to portray it? I doubt it very much that they would.

While it’s true to say that among people who have children, surrogacy is rare, it doesn’t hold true to say that among people who can’t have children via traditional methods, that surrogacy is rare, or that it’s likely to become any less common as a result of legislation to regulate surrogacy in other countries. In Ukraine seeing as that’s the most common example being used in this thread, surrogacy is only available to heterosexual couples. In the US, less than 2% of children in 2018 were born via surrogacy, and there are no federal laws regarding surrogacy, each State has its own laws, and most States legislation is favourable towards surrogacy.

In contrast to the picture of surrogacy you’re trying to convey, while it’s true that exploitation does exist, it’s not commonplace among people who avail of surrogacy, nor is it commonplace among people who provide surrogacy services. Surrogacy laws aren’t as simplistic as you’re trying to make out at all, with countries which prohibit surrogacy in their domestic laws having to recognise that international surrogacy is becoming more common than it once was, which means that they are now having to recognise the legal entitlement of children born via surrogacy to citizenship rights in the country of their parents, because it is determined to be in the best interests of the child or children in question.

I don’t think anyone has ever suggested surrogacy is a value neutral activity though, and you’ve already acknowledged this much from your opening post when you lament the idea of surrogacy being presented in favourable terms, overlooking the fact that it’s far more common that any mention of surrogacy invokes imagery of exploitation and all the negative aspects of surrogacy, the opposite of portraying surrogacy as having any positive value.

Mules · 19-04-2021 5:33am

Anyone who adopts a child from a poor country or uses a surrogate from one has no right to condemn mother and baby homes in Ireland. Does anyone seriously think the situation is any different in those countries as it was in Ireland? It seems that we will condemn wrong done to Irish women but women in other countries don't matter. Imo the government should ban foreign adoptions and surrogacy asap.

[Deleted User] · 19-04-2021 7:16am

I see the "Be nice" silencing arsenal has been deployed.
"Don't judge."

For what it's worth I already said infertility and couples longing for a baby is tragic.

Tragedy cannot obscure the reality that some issues have to be looked at from a wider demographic position, rather than from the emotive individual position. That was why I said in the OP that this was not about a personal response to recent cases.

I am reasonably sure that at the individual level everyone's surrogate is a mature, warm, responsible, well-adjusted person motivated to bring joy to others.

The wider demographic, however, tells a different story. Abuse and suffering is frequently recorded and reported. The lucrative nature of the surrogacy market and its concentration in poorer areas of the world leaves it wide open for exploitation, trafficking, baby farming etc. And it happens thusly.

Oul John Joe in Leitrim might burn his silage wrappers in a bin in the yard and get back from the pub safely every Saturday with a few pints in him, so don't be mean, don't judge, be kind and don't make a fuss. And on an individual level it seems rotten not to be nice to oul John Joe. But the fact is that on a wider demographic level if everyone burned plastic in a weekly burn barrel and drove home with a few pints we would all have significantly more polluted environments and a higher risk of death on the roads.

That is why societies regulate practices that are inherently exploitative or dangerous by looking at the wider picture - the desires of the individual cannot blind one to the demographic reality of cause and effect. That is why many many countries have made surrogacy illegal - because they looked at the broader demographic research. And being portrayed as a monster on the individual level is insufficient reason to be silent about the broader issue.

kaymin · 19-04-2021 7:33am

Deleted User wrote: »

I see the "Be nice" silencing arsenal has been deployed.
"Don't judge."

For what it's worth I already said infertility and couples longing for a baby is tragic.

Tragedy cannot obscure the reality that some issues have to be looked at from a wider demographic position, rather than from the emotive individual position. That was why I said in the OP that this was not about a personal response to recent cases.

I am reasonably sure that at the individual level everyone's surrogate is a mature, warm, responsible, well-adjusted person motivated to bring joy to others.

The wider demographic, however, tells a different story. Abuse and suffering is frequently recorded and reported. The lucrative nature of the surrogacy market and its concentration in poorer areas of the world leaves it wide open for exploitation, trafficking, baby farming etc. And it happens thusly.

Oul John Joe in Leitrim might burn his silage wrappers in a bin in the yard and get back from the pub safely every Saturday with a few pints in him, so don't be mean, don't judge, be kind and don't make a fuss. And on an individual level it seems rotten not to be nice to oul John Joe. But the fact is that on a wider demographic level if everyone burned plastic in a weekly burn barrel and drove home with a few pints we would all have significantly more polluted environments and a higher risk of death on the roads.

That is why societies regulate practices that are inherently exploitative or dangerous by looking at the wider picture - the desires of the individual cannot blind one to the demographic reality of cause and effect. That is why many many countries have made surrogacy illegal - because they looked at the broader demographic research. And being portrayed as a monster on the individual level is insufficient reason to be silent about the broader issue.

Your posts are dripping in judgement. What broader demographic research are you talking about? The sum of the individual experiences make up the entire experience so your argument is nonsense. As for your plastic burning analogy:rolleyes: Abuse is not frequent in Ukraine - you are portraying your prejudices as fact.

But then you think having rules to stop surrogate mothers from drinking and smoking during pregnancy is abuse :pac:

[Deleted User] · 19-04-2021 7:44am

kaymin wrote: »

Your posts are dripping in judgement. What broader demographic research are you talking about? The sum of the individual experiences make up the entire experience so your argument is nonsense. As for your plastic burning analogy:rolleyes:

They are not ''dripping in judgement''. But again this is the silencing technique - I am not being kind enough for your tastes or purposes. My posts are the firmly held position that is other side of the argument from the one you support. That's it.

The analogy was not between surrogacy and burning plastic - but you know that. The analogy was about regulating activities that at an individual level one can overlook but that have knock on consequences on a wider demographic that cannot be ignored.
As for the broader research, google will be helpful to you.

Jequ0n · 19-04-2021 8:10am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

They are not ''dripping in judgement''. But again this is the silencing technique - I am not being kind enough for your tastes or purposes. My posts are the firmly held position that is other side of the argument from the one you support. That's it.

The analogy was not between surrogacy and burning plastic - but you know that. The analogy was about regulating activities that at an individual level one can overlook but that have knock on consequences on a wider demographic that cannot be ignored.
As for the broader research, google will be helpful to you.

Nobody tried to silence you, posters asked you to tone down on the judgement.
This is not a discussion for you because you are only interested in having your opinion confirmed/ others devalued.

Your response to the thread this morning is telling and underlines what I tried to tell you a while back: you are too emotionally invested in this topic which prevents you from having a neutral discussion.

Good luck, I don’t think there is any point in continuing reading this thread

volchitsa · 19-04-2021 8:21am

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Another absurd point. Why would a couple choose to go through the difficult process and enormous expense to have a child that they want to accuse and neglect.

I seriously doubt any surrogate child has ever been treated that way, yet plenty of children birthed from normal circumstances do.

Also it's poor form to include and condemn people who give up children for adoption when they aren't able to raise them

I already gave examples. BTW the couples don't go through the difficult process, that's the surrogate. They just pay the money. Your notion that this makes it impossible that they will be abusive is undercut by what happened to some of the Irish children sent to America for adoption.

Oh and I haven't condemned anyone for giving up a child for adoption. Because I don't think they deserve condemnation.

But if your point was that the surrogate is more likely to be abused than the baby, yes I agree. Baby farms for wealthy couples have been discovered, and doubtless there are many more. That's another reason why foreign surrogacy is a dodgy business.

volchitsa · 19-04-2021 8:23am

Jequ0n wrote: »

Nobody tried to silence you, posters asked you to tone down on the judgement. This is not a discussion for you because you are only interested in having your opinion confirmed/ others devalued.

Your response to the thread this morning is telling and underlines what I tried to tell you a while back: you are too emotionally invested in this topic which prevents you from having a neutral discussion.

Good luck, I don’t think there is any point in continuing reading this thread

And you're not a moderator so it's not up to you to decree how other posters should post. It's a discussion forum, people give their opinions.

[Deleted User] · 19-04-2021 8:41am

volchitsa wrote: »

And you're not a moderator so it's not up to you to decree how other posters should post. It's a discussion forum, people give their opinions.

It is notable though how emotionally posters declare others to be emotional...

and yet I am at the very same time not emotional enough for others who wish for more kindness.

Tis hard to please all people.

One eyed Jack · 19-04-2021 8:42am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I see the "Be nice" silencing arsenal has been deployed.
"Don't judge."

For what it's worth I already said infertility and couples longing for a baby is tragic.

Tragedy cannot obscure the reality that some issues have to be looked at from a wider demographic position, rather than from the emotive individual position. That was why I said in the OP that this was not about a personal response to recent cases.

I am reasonably sure that at the individual level everyone's surrogate is a mature, warm, responsible, well-adjusted person motivated to bring joy to others.

The wider demographic, however, tells a different story. Abuse and suffering is frequently recorded and reported. The lucrative nature of the surrogacy market and its concentration in poorer areas of the world leaves it wide open for exploitation, trafficking, baby farming etc. And it happens thusly.

Oul John Joe in Leitrim might burn his silage wrappers in a bin in the yard and get back from the pub safely every Saturday with a few pints in him, so don't be mean, don't judge, be kind and don't make a fuss. And on an individual level it seems rotten not to be nice to oul John Joe. But the fact is that on a wider demographic level if everyone burned plastic in a weekly burn barrel and drove home with a few pints we would all have significantly more polluted environments and a higher risk of death on the roads.

That is why societies regulate practices that are inherently exploitative or dangerous by looking at the wider picture - the desires of the individual cannot blind one to the demographic reality of cause and effect. That is why many many countries have made surrogacy illegal - because they looked at the broader demographic research. And being portrayed as a monster on the individual level is insufficient reason to be silent about the broader issue.

But isn’t that what you’re doing when you’re invoking the kind of exploitative imagery you do with regards to surrogacy? You’re obscuring the reality of looking at the issues presented by surrogacy by using examples of exploitation and tragedy to support your argument that these are the reasons why as you put it “many many countries have made surrogacy illegal”.

In some countries yes, surrogacy in any form is illegal, but in the majority of countries, surrogacy is either unregulated as it is in Ireland, or legal with specific provisions. Only in a minority of European countries is there any outright prohibition on surrogacy, and in those countries, domestic laws have been proven to be ineffective in terms of addressing international surrogacy.

I take your point that the desires of the individual cannot blind one to the demographic reality of cause and effect, but focusing solely upon the negative aspects of cause and effect as it relates to both the individual and to society is unquestionably one-sided, which is why more objective guidance is not only required, but recognised in the form of the ECHR, which gives a much fuller perspective of the issues involved in surrogacy as to how they relate to both the individuals involved, and to society as a whole over which the ECHR has jurisdiction.

There are two cases in particular which stand out in relation to surrogacy which many people regard as the ECHR ruling in the best interests of the child, and offering guidance in relation to the welfare of children born via domestic and international surrogacy arrangements and the welfare of the legal parents and biological parents involved in the relationship with regards to an individual’s right to their identity.

Probably best to go get coffee before sitting down to read this tbh -

Parenthood and Cross-Border Surrogacy: What Is ‘New’? The ECtHR’s First Advisory Opinion

kaymin · 19-04-2021 8:52am

Deleted User wrote: »

They are not ''dripping in judgement''. But again this is the silencing technique - I am not being kind enough for your tastes or purposes. My posts are the firmly held position that is other side of the argument from the one you support. That's it.

The analogy was not between surrogacy and burning plastic - but you know that. The analogy was about regulating activities that at an individual level one can overlook but that have knock on consequences on a wider demographic that cannot be ignored.
As for the broader research, google will be helpful to you.

No one is trying to silence you. I've been asking you for evidence of this broader demographic sound-bite you refer to and counter your claims of abuse with the actual reason for certain rules and penalties being in place. You choose not to engage because of your 'firmly held position' - ie you're not open minded about the topic.

[Deleted User] · 19-04-2021 9:07am

kaymin wrote: »

No one is trying to silence you. I've been asking you for evidence of this broader demographic sound-bite you refer to and counter your claims of abuse with the actual reason for certain rules and penalties being in place. You choose not to engage because of your 'firmly held position' - ie you're not open minded about the topic.

Twice now people ( or one person twice) have reassured me that no one is trying to silence me. And yet I have not expressed any worry at all that I am being silenced. No need to fret that I feel silenced. As my husband and friends would attest, it would be a Herculean task to achieve.

kaymin · 19-04-2021 9:17am

Deleted User wrote: »

Twice now people ( or one person twice) have reassured me that no one is trying to silence me. And yet I have not expressed any worry at all that I am being silenced. No need to fret that I feel silenced. As my husband and friends would attest, it would be a Herculean task to achieve.

No-one is fretting, you have claimed multiple times that people are trying to silence you when pointing out your judgemental nature. This is what you posted above:
But again this is the silencing technique

That you need to refer to the fact you have a husband and friends when it is completely unnecessary and irrelevant strikes me as someone that is quite insecure.

I was going to ask you to address my points rather than deflect again but I get a sense I am wasting my time

[Deleted User] · 19-04-2021 10:00am

kaymin wrote: »

No-one is fretting, you have claimed multiple times that people are trying to silence you when pointing out your judgemental nature. This is what you posted above:
But again this is the silencing technique

I was going to ask you to address my points rather than deflect again but I get a sense I am wasting my time

Pointing out that people use a debating strategy to attempt to silence opposite viewpoints to their own - ie saying don't judge aka be kind - and feeling silenced personally, are two very different things.
If you call people you disagree with a horse in a discussion and I point out that calling people a horse is a debating strategy to attempt to undermine the other person and their position, it is not the same as me saying I feel like a horse now because the horse-calling strategy has been used.

kaymin · 19-04-2021 10:05am

Deleted User wrote: »

Pointing out that people use a debating strategy to attempt to silence opposite viewpoints to their own - ie saying don't judge aka be kind - and feeling silenced personally, are two very different things.
If you call people you disagree with a horse in a discussion and I point out that calling people a horse is a debating strategy to attempt to undermine the other person and their position, it is not the same as me saying I feel like a horse now because the horse-calling strategy has been used.

No one made any claims about how you were feeling. How about getting on topic and stop with the nonsense?

[Deleted User] · 19-04-2021 10:29am

kaymin wrote: »

No one made any claims about how you were feeling. How about getting on topic and stop with the nonsense?

It is not nonsense to illuminate the parameters of any debate and to note the debating strategies and fallacies employed.

Neyite · 20-04-2021 6:19pm

and in the morning Diamonds of Frost wrote: »

I'm not sure of my own position on surrogacy but I can't help but wonder what some of the stronger opinions holders here would feel if they were infertile.

Before I got pregnant, even knowing I was facing never having a family of my own, I was uncomfortable with the idea of surrogacy and I don't think I could ever live with a poor woman carrying my child for me, knowing all the health risks pregnancy and childbirth bring to the mother.Similarly with adoption, it requires going abroad to countries where the 'orphan' usually has at least one parent and almost always has an extended family that love them just too poor to rear them. It was never an option for me. If I didn't have my own baby I was headed towards counselling to come to terms with not being a mother. To me, motherhood was a privilege I hoped to experience, but it was never a right I felt entitled to.

I also remember that bond I had when I finally did get pregnant. It's bullshít to say that it's genetics that cause it. There could have been an embryo from anyone in there, but as far as my body cared, I was it's mother. And even the recognition of my voice after he was born, or him falling asleep on my heartbeat because it was familiar, or me being able to pick out my son out of dozens blindfolded by scent alone, my breasts leaking at his cry - none of those are genetics. It's all the mother-baby stuff that goes on in the 0-9months before birth.

If we take away the cash aspect of it, very few women would volunteer to be a surrogate to total strangers. So women are doing it for money because they are poor and struggling and it's quickly lucrative in comparison to other jobs. I also think the extortionate amounts charged to couples by agencies for surrogacy is preying on their desperation as well.

Surrogacy

Comments