Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Alcohol Supply Laws - Dunnes Stores

  • 09-08-2018 11:52pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 5 caoi.mhe


    I was in popular Irish supermarket, Dunnes Stores, today in Cork City with a friend of mine who was buying alcohol. I never once handled the alcohol that she way buying anywhere in the store, except to maybe hold it for her for a brief second while she got her wallet, but we would have been nowhere near the till when this was done. However, when it came to paying for them, the store assistant asked for my friend's ID which is expected, we're both only 19, but she then also extremely rudely insisted that I show her mine too. I told her that I wasn't buying the alcohol and that I wasn't paying for it, my friend was, however she insisted that it was the law that I show her mine too.

    Surely this isn't actually the law surrounding buying alcohol in Ireland, that they have to see the ID of every person present at the till when it's being purchased and she had no right to insist on seeing my ID as well my friend's ID? I wasn't purchasing the alcohol, I hadn't even touched it, yet she was insisting it was the law that I must show her my ID as well even thought I had nothing to do with the transaction.

    If that is the case, then surely adults buying alcohol in the company of their own children shouldn't be allowed either, as none of their children have proof they are over eighteen?

    I have a strong mind to go back into the store tomorrow and ask to speak to a manager about the whole ordeal. The staff member was very curt and in no way polite about it, but surely this isn't actually law?


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,894 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    It is illegal to sell alcohol to under 18's and to sell to those who may supply it to under 18's. The shop was well within it's rights to ask you both for ID in this regard if they suspected that it may have been for you as well. You will find that some of the multiples sell drink to people over the age of 25 only. Some of them have tills set up to ask the staff at the till to confirm that they are old enough to purchase drink so you were lucky to have been sold drink on this instance.


  • Registered Users Posts: 433 ✭✭Lmklad


    It is illegal to sell alcohol to under 18's and to sell to those who may supply it to under 18's. The shop was well within it's rights to ask you both for ID in this regard if they suspected that it may have been for you as well. You will find that some of the multiples sell drink to people over the age of 25 only. Some of them have tills set up to ask the staff at the till to confirm that they are old enough to purchase drink so you were lucky to have been sold drink on this instance.


    As above. The store have a legal duty of care to ensure that alcohol purchased isn’t to be supplied to minors. Perfectly reasonable to ask you for ID.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,098 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    These policies are always handled extremely poorly by staff and often even management. Aldi say they must check ID of everyone in a group "by law", cite Scottish law if you query this, and then never check kids with parents. The Scottish law in question doesn't even mention the concept as far as I remember!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭TallGlass


    Always wondered about this. Surely if the alcohol is sold to you and you give it to someone else. The store is sure they have made there checks and all is above board.

    If that is the case. Then they should be following people off there property and seeing where they are going with the alcohol.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    There's two issues here.

    The first is that if two (or more) people present themselves at the checkout carrying goods and offering payment, the shop has no way of knowing whether this is a joint purchase that they are all involved in, or a purchase by just one of them, with the others having come along to watch because why not? The question isn't answered by the fact that the credit or debit card of just one person is offered; there may be an arrnagement or understanding whereby he is to be reimursed by the others, or he may already have been put in funds by them. He may, in short, be acting as the agent of the group in entering into the contract. If it's a group purchase, and any member of the group is under 18, the shop commits an offence in selling them alcohol.

    The second is that it is an offence for an over-18 year old to buy alcohol to provide to an under-18 year old. And if the circumstances suggest that that is what is happening, the shop risks being an accessory to the offence, or at least risks objections to the renewal of their licence, if they don't make investigations to exclude that possibility.

    Parents with their children aren't normally buying alcohol on behalf of their children, and there's no reason to think that they are buying alcohol to give it to their children. Whereas a group of young people all turning up and one of them who is over 18 is seeking to buy alcohol, both of these situations are obviously quite possible. Hence the shop will want to take steps to prevent either possibility. That's not unreasonable.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    L1011 wrote: »
    These policies are always handled extremely poorly by staff and often even management. Aldi say they must check ID of everyone in a group "by law", cite Scottish law if you query this, and then never check kids with parents. The Scottish law in question doesn't even mention the concept as far as I remember!
    The holder of any licence shall not—

    (a) sell or deliver or permit any person to sell or deliver intoxicating liquor to a person under the age of 18 years,
    This is pretty broad, and could potentially be interpreted as an obligation on the retailer to not sell to anyone whom they have good to reason believe will or may supply that alcohol to an under-18.

    When it comes to applying that rule to someone on the checkout, the legal team and the insurers won't be happy leaving it to the employee's judgement and so instead put a blanket policy in place.

    If a parent comes in with a ten year old you can be reasonably sure they're not buying alcohol for them. And even if they were, it's not an offence for a parent to supply alcohol to their child in their own home. So it's a grey area.

    Most likely it's all overprotective insurance and legal teams. "If someone were to get really drunk and die because their mate bought alcohol in LIDL, the parents might try and sue for negligence. So rather than deal with that bad publicity, just card everyone standing near alcohol who looks like they might be young".


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,157 ✭✭✭TheShow


    She was being responsible and doing her job well. We need more people like this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5 caoi.mhe


    It is illegal to sell alcohol to under 18's and to sell to those who may supply it to under 18's. The shop was well within it's rights to ask you both for ID in this regard if they suspected that it may have been for you as well. You will find that some of the multiples sell drink to people over the age of 25 only. Some of them have tills set up to ask the staff at the till to confirm that they are old enough to purchase drink so you were lucky to have been sold drink on this instance.

    I wasn't "lucky" to be sold drink, it wasn't mine in the first place anyway. There's also no law saying you're not allowed to buy alcohol unless you're over 25, the law is you have to be over 18, technically establishments have no right to refuse you if you're over 18.

    I actually work in retail myself, not a supermarket/off licence however, but in an establishment that occasionally sells alcohol throughout the year. We have never once been told to ID all parties present when someone is buying alcohol. We have to ID anyone we suspect of being under 30, yes, but if they're over 18 we can sell it to them. If a parent walked in with their teenage child I wouldn't ever dream of asking both parties for ID. If an adult was going to buy alcohol for a minor, obviously it's bad morals, but besides that, the minor isn't going to accompany them to the checkout while trying to buy the alcohol in question.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5 caoi.mhe


    seamus wrote: »
    If a parent comes in with a ten year old you can be reasonably sure they're not buying alcohol for them. And even if they were, it's not an offence for a parent to supply alcohol to their child in their own home. So it's a grey area.

    My mother has actually been refused buying alcohol before just because I was with her and didn't have any ID with me. Which is ridiculous, so they clearly only enforce half the rule whenever they feel necessary. If it was the law to have everyone present show their IDs they wouldn't be selling it to these adults with young children, regardless of their young age or not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    caoi.mhe wrote: »
    I wasn't "lucky" to be sold drink, it wasn't mine in the first place anyway. There's also no law saying you're not allowed to buy alcohol unless you're over 25, the law is you have to be over 18, technically establishments have no right to refuse you if you're over 18
    They do. Although discrimination between adults on the grounds of age is generally unlawful, there is an exception in the legislation relating to alcohol sales and licensed premises. Businesses are free to set a minimum sales or admission age which is higher than 18, if they wish to.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    caoi.mhe wrote: »
    I wasn't "lucky" to be sold drink, it wasn't mine in the first place anyway. There's also no law saying you're not allowed to buy alcohol unless you're over 25, the law is you have to be over 18, technically establishments have no right to refuse you if you're over 18.
    Actually they do.

    There is nothing in the law which obliges the sale of alcohol to someone over 18. The retailer always reserves the right to not sell produce.

    The equal status act requires that all adults are treated equally regardless of age, which by default means that a shop cannot sell to a 30 year old and refuse to sell to an 18 year old.

    However an exemption was added in 2003, which allows licenced sellers of alcohol to implement an age policy for alcohol, provided that the policy is displayed prominently and is implemented in good faith (e.g. they don't just card travellers and leave everyone else alone).


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,667 ✭✭✭whippet


    caoi.mhe wrote: »
    the law is you have to be over 18, technically establishments have no right to refuse you if you're over 18.


    if your argument is based upon this wrong assumption you are wasting your time here and with seeking out a manager to have a rant at.


    Also .. you might want to get your story straight before confronting a manager

    caoi.mhe wrote: »
    I never once handled the alcohol that she way buying anywhere in the store,

    never once?
    caoi.mhe wrote: »
    except to maybe hold it for her for a brief second while she got her wallet


    but you never touched it?

    caoi.mhe wrote: »
    I wasn't purchasing the alcohol, I hadn't even touched it, y



    In all fairness .. the cashier is looking at two young people (possibly underage) walking with alcohol to the counter .. one hands the booze to the other - as they are getting their wallet out .. of course the cashier will want to check that both parties are of legal age to purchase the booze.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5 caoi.mhe


    whippet wrote: »
    if your argument is based upon this wrong assumption you are wasting your time here and with seeking out a manager to have a rant at.


    Also .. you might want to get your story straight before confronting a manager




    never once?




    but you never touched it?






    In all fairness .. the cashier is looking at two young people (possibly underage) walking with alcohol to the counter .. one hands the booze to the other - as they are getting their wallet out .. of course the cashier will want to check that both parties are of legal age to purchase the booze.

    If you had quoted the correct part of the post you'd know that I said I might have handled it for a second while she got her wallet but I explicitly stated it wasn't anywhere near the till point. I had nothing to do with the transaction, I was merely standing near the checkout with my friend.


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    caoi.mhe wrote: »
    If you had quoted the correct part of the post you'd know that I said I might have handled it for a second while she got her wallet but I explicitly stated it wasn't anywhere near the till point. I had nothing to do with the transaction, I was merely standing near the checkout with my friend.
    It's kind of irrelevant anyway.

    The retailer is perfectly entitled to do this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 255 ✭✭mooonpie


    From what I've experienced previously, this is company policy.

    About 8 years ago, I (22 year old lad) was in Dunnes with my 14 year old sister on a Saturday morning buying ingredients for tiramisu - including a bottle of dark rum. As it happens, my sister was doing the baking so I guess I was technically buying booze for her, but I digress.

    At the till, we were both asked to provide ID. I thought the cashier was being friendly and having a joke with my clearly underage sister ... but turns out she was deadly serious. She politely explained it was store policy and offered to call a manager, an offer which I accepted. I got the impression she wasn't too enthused by the policy

    The manager was equally polite and explained their hands were tied, accepted it was quite likely, based on the other purchases, that I was buying the rum for baking with ... and not in fact for my sister to down as soon as we left the shop, but apologised and stood firm by their decision.

    I talked out a few hypothetical scenarios with the cashier and manager:
    * If my sister was in the car - obviously no problem
    * If my sister was in shop, but not at the till - not a problem
    * If my sister was in line, but with my mother or father - not a problem (I think the exact reasoning was "That's different, they're her parents" ??? )
    * If I paid for everything except the rum, left the rum at the till, brought my sister and the shopping to the car, and returned alone to purchase the rum - not a problem, they'd even keep the rum aside for me at the till.

    With that last scenario, we all accepted it was a bit of a daft policy ... and the cashier continued to apologise while explaining she had to follow the policy when I came back alone to pay for the rum ~ 2 minutes later.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5 caoi.mhe


    mooonpie wrote: »
    From what I've experienced previously, this is company policy.

    About 8 years ago, I (22 year old lad) was in Dunnes with my 14 year old sister on a Saturday morning buying ingredients for tiramisu - including a bottle of dark rum. As it happens, my sister was doing the baking so I guess I was technically buying booze for her, but I digress.

    At the till, we were both asked to provide ID. I thought the cashier was being friendly and having a joke with my clearly underage sister ... but turns out she was deadly serious. She politely explained it was store policy and offered to call a manager, an offer which I accepted. I got the impression she wasn't too enthused by the policy

    The manager was equally polite and explained their hands were tied, accepted it was quite likely, based on the other purchases, that I was buying the rum for baking with ... and not in fact for my sister to down as soon as we left the shop, but apologised and stood firm by their decision.

    I talked out a few hypothetical scenarios with the cashier and manager:
    * If my sister was in the car - obviously no problem
    * If my sister was in shop, but not at the till - not a problem
    * If my sister was in line, but with my mother or father - not a problem (I think the exact reasoning was "That's different, they're her parents" ??? )
    * If I paid for everything except the rum, left the rum at the till, brought my sister and the shopping to the car, and returned alone to purchase the rum - not a problem, they'd even keep the rum aside for me at the till.

    With that last scenario, we all accepted it was a bit of a daft policy ... and the cashier continued to apologise while explaining she had to follow the policy when I came back alone to pay for the rum ~ 2 minutes later.

    It's an absolutely ridiculous policy. I was thinking exactly the same, had I left the shop before her or went to pay for something myself at a different till, she wouldn't have followed me out of the shop and asked for my ID or asked me for it at a different till where I wasn't purchasing alcohol.

    The line "that's different, they're her parents" is hilarious beyond belief 😂 are they going to start asking for birth certificates now too to prove that they're your parents? Absolutely ludicrous, it's such a half assed policy that is only enforced when they want to enforce it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    mooonpie wrote: »
    With that last scenario, we all accepted it was a bit of a daft policy
    caoi.mhe wrote: »
    It's an absolutely ridiculous policy
    As I say above, this is mostly just arse covering by the company.

    Two girls rock up to the till, the company asks both for ID and they can say "we made a reasonable effort to prevent the supply of alcohol to a minor."

    One girl is outside? "Didn't know she was there, not my fault"
    Girls go to different tills? "Didn't know they were together, not my fault"
    Girl with her parent? "Reckoned it was her mother, not my fault".

    Whatever is the bare minimum they need to do to avoid getting sued.

    If you don't like it, shop somewhere else. Or stand outside while your mate is buying booze :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    caoi.mhe wrote: »
    It's an absolutely ridiculous policy. I was thinking exactly the same, had I left the shop before her or went to pay for something myself at a different till, she wouldn't have followed me out of the shop and asked for my ID or asked me for it at a different till where I wasn't purchasing alcohol.

    The line "that's different, they're her parents" is hilarious beyond belief �� are they going to start asking for birth certificates now too to prove that they're your parents? Absolutely ludicrous, it's such a half assed policy that is only enforced when they want to enforce it.
    Moonpie's story shows, surely, that they enforce it fairly consistently?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Wondered when this thread would get it's 6 monthly airing. Garda age card the only defence for off licences etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,088 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    And what about ID requirements?

    I work for company which employs plenty of young foreign people (in their early 20's) who live in employers premisses in rural location and we offer them a lift in a bus to town for their shopping/socialising. As I usually drive them there, I've seen multiple times many of them were refused purchase of alcohol in supermarkets due to them only having their national ID issued by other EU countries.
    Till person was requesting passport or Garda age card and saying that Romanian, Polish or French national ID is not good enough. Is this legal?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    CiniO wrote: »
    And what about ID requirements?

    I work for company which employs plenty of young foreign people (in their early 20's) who live in employers premisses in rural location and we offer them a lift in a bus to town for their shopping/socialising. As I usually drive them there, I've seen multiple times many of them were refused purchase of alcohol in supermarkets due to them only having their national ID issued by other EU countries.
    Till person was requesting passport or Garda age card and saying that Romanian, Polish or French national ID is not good enough. Is this legal?


    Not the passport, but the Garda age card covers them. I expect the passport has crept in as they can be as sure as possible it's the person whose document it is. They can't be as sure with other EU passports.


    Bottom line is the onle defence is that a garda age card was presented.


  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ Jon Shapely Inch


    Just curious if anyone knows how to resolve this issue; I am 37 and routinely get refused tobacco at one particular shop (also a chain supermarket). When asked for ID I always reply that I don't carry ID, I am 37. I asked if they really thought I was under 18? They said no, they didn't think I was under 18, but if you are under 25 you are required to show ID. But I am not under 25.

    I refuse to actually give them ID by now, because of the ludicrousness of the situation. I just buy tobacco elsewhere. But where does the rule become blurred on this under 25s thing?


  • Registered Users Posts: 433 ✭✭Lmklad


    CiniO wrote: »
    And what about ID requirements?

    I work for company which employs plenty of young foreign people (in their early 20's) who live in employers premisses in rural location and we offer them a lift in a bus to town for their shopping/socialising. As I usually drive them there, I've seen multiple times many of them were refused purchase of alcohol in supermarkets due to them only having their national ID issued by other EU countries.
    Till person was requesting passport or Garda age card and saying that Romanian, Polish or French national ID is not good enough. Is this legal?


    Not the passport, but the Garda age card covers them. I expect the passport has crept in as they can be as sure as possible it's the person whose document it is. They can't be as sure with other EU passports.


    Bottom line is the onle defence is that a garda age card was presented.

    The three acceptable forms of ID under the liquor licensing act are the Garda age card, passport or drivers licence.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    its a policy thing if they think you look u25 you need to be ided.

    an old looking 18 year old can be mistaken by 25 apparently.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Just curious if anyone knows how to resolve this issue; I am 37 and routinely get refused tobacco at one particular shop (also a chain supermarket). When asked for ID I always reply that I don't carry ID, I am 37. I asked if they really thought I was under 18? They said no, they didn't think I was under 18, but if you are under 25 you are required to show ID. But I am not under 25.

    I refuse to actually give them ID by now, because of the ludicrousness of the situation. I just buy tobacco elsewhere. But where does the rule become blurred on this under 25s thing?
    That's the shops own policy, and it's not if you factually are under 25, it's if you look under 25. As ciaran says above the assumption is that a 17 year old can look up to 25, so card everyone who looks up to that to be safe. The resolution is to carry ID if you want to buy tobacco there, or just don't go there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    They said no, they didn't think I was under 18, but if you are under 25 you are required to show ID. But I am not under 25.

    I refuse to actually give them ID by now, because of the ludicrousness of the situation. I just buy tobacco elsewhere. But where does the rule become blurred on this under 25s thing?
    The policy generally if you look under 25. How are you supposed to prove you're not under 25 unless you show ID?

    I think shops choose 25 so that they can take a more rigid approach to carding people. Plenty of 14 years olds can make themselves look 18, but making themselves look 25 or even 30 is much harder.

    So even if someone looks over 18, shops can still stick to their guns and ask to see ID.

    But the reason they have an age at all, is to give them a get-out clause at the far end - why did you ask me for ID and not the granny in front me?

    "That's not ageism sir, I just think you look younger than 25, whereas she clearly isn't".


  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ Jon Shapely Inch


    I find it pretty amusing that they have said they don't believe I am under 18, but refuse me all the same. I did also ask if they really thought a 17 year old would claim to be 37? Aren't they more likely to say they are 18, maybe 19? They agreed with me on that, too! Sheer idiocy if you ask me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    I find it pretty amusing that they have said they don't believe I am under 18, but refuse me all the same. I did also ask if they really thought a 17 year old would claim to be 37? Aren't they more likely to say they are 18, maybe 19? They agreed with me on that, too! Sheer idiocy if you ask me.
    Yes, but they believe you look under 26, so if they didn't look for ID they'd be going against policy and leaving themselves open to disciplinary action. Nobody wants to get fired over something as small as that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,303 ✭✭✭sexmag


    I find it pretty amusing that they have said they don't believe I am under 18, but refuse me all the same. I did also ask if they really thought a 17 year old would claim to be 37? Aren't they more likely to say they are 18, maybe 19? They agreed with me on that, too! Sheer idiocy if you ask me.

    Well by not giving them business you are showing them how their policy is effecting them and if enough people stop going maybe they will review it.

    Just thank yourself lucky you dont live in the states, everyone and absolutely everyone gets carded


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 907 ✭✭✭Under His Eye


    Lmklad wrote: »
    The three acceptable forms of ID under the liquor licensing act are the Garda age card, passport or drivers licence.
    No specification on who has issued the Driving Licence or Passport.


Advertisement