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No Tokens for Washing Machine - Landlord not replying
Comments
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what are the other tenants doing?
It’s ridiculous practice if you ask me. We alrady overpaying for flat itself and now
Last month LL decided to install coin operated comunial washing machine between 7 flats.
Also he changed the model for a smaller load.
So now each and every time you want to do a wash it will cost you 2€ (10 times more if you would use your own electricity)0 -
what are the other tenants doing?
It’s ridiculous practice if you ask me. We alrady overpaying for flat itself and now
Last month LL decided to install coin operated comunial washing machine between 7 flats.
Also he changed the model for a smaller load.
So now each and every time you want to do a wash it will cost you 2€ (10 times more if you would use your own electricity)0 -
It’s ridiculous practice if you ask me. We alrady overpaying for flat itself and now
Last month LL decided to install coin operated comunial washing machine between 7 flats.
Also he changed the model for a smaller load.
So now each and every time you want to do a wash it will cost you 2€ (10 times more if you would use your own electricity)
Yeah it's quite frustrating alright. Ours are €2. Sometimes you'll get 1 load sometimes 2. If you can get a load for €1 it's probably not the worst. But it's the inconvenience of getting the tokens from your LL when you run out!0 -
It’s ridiculous practice if you ask me. We alrady overpaying for flat itself and now
Last month LL decided to install coin operated comunial washing machine between 7 flats.
Also he changed the model for a smaller load.
So now each and every time you want to do a wash it will cost you 2€ (10 times more if you would use your own electricity)
You need the facilities I get that,
But Youre only looking at the cost from your own perspective, and while I get that, no one wants to pay more than they want or expect a service costs.
But you dont know how much it costs to provide the service, if there was unlimited access theres an almost certainty that someone would start a laundrette with it or abuse it somehow, think not possible?
I rented out a house once to a couple, one of them not working, anytime I went there were stacks of clothes, they had 2 kids, I didnt cop it until the washing machine, a good brand and in reasonable condition clapped out relatively quickly, bearing went in it, when I had to clean out the filter, it was clogged with lint to an extent I never saw before, I concluded they were using it excessively, could only have been using it to do washinh for other people, another person managed to break a fridge inside a year, but didnt tell me while it was still inside a warranty.
So tenants treat white goods fairly poorly compared to if you own them and had to buy it and pay to replace it yourself, in the end I came to the result, buy the cheapest white goods as people will treat them badly. If you had a good quality item it will just get wrecked anyway.
Multiply that by a number of tenants, end result.
The law around the matter is a joke, people want euro style standards but with Irish restrictive legislation it will never happen,
there should be a thriving business of laundrettes around certain areas for certain size flats, Id prefer have my own white goods, but some units just dont suit and professional industrial washer/dryers would work all the time, plus they can be run by a person, dont have to sit there and watch them.
2 euro may well be the cost of electricity and paying for repairs and replacement, that its a smaller load probably doesnt make sense, as usually a slightly larger load/size washing machine will not be significantly greater in price.0 -
They are not tenants though, but licensees.Phoebe Cold Fog wrote: »It's the norm for college accommodation to openly charge per wash on a similar system. For example:
http://www.dcuaccommodation.ie/living-on-campus/apartment-living/laundry-facilities
Therefore it can be taken that it's not illegal. Deliberately avoiding payment for a service obviously is illegal on the other hand. Saving a couple of euro a week doesn't strike me as worth risking being kicked out of your apartment or being refused a reference, given the current climate.0 -
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You need the facilities I get that,
But Youre only looking at the cost from your own perspective, and while I get that, no one wants to pay more than they want or expect a service costs.
But you dont know how much it costs to provide the service, if there was unlimited access theres an almost certainty that someone would start a laundrette with it or abuse it somehow, think not possible?
I rented out a house once to a couple, one of them not working, anytime I went there were stacks of clothes, they had 2 kids, I didnt cop it until the washing machine, a good brand and in reasonable condition clapped out relatively quickly, bearing went in it, when I had to clean out the filter, it was clogged with lint to an extent I never saw before, I concluded they were using it excessively, could only have been using it to do washinh for other people, another person managed to break a fridge inside a year, but didnt tell me while it was still inside a warranty.
So tenants treat white goods fairly poorly compared to if you own them and had to buy it and pay to replace it yourself, in the end I came to the result, buy the cheapest white goods as people will treat them badly. If you had a good quality item it will just get wrecked anyway.
Multiply that by a number of tenants, end result.
The law around the matter is a joke, people want euro style standards but with Irish restrictive legislation it will never happen,
there should be a thriving business of laundrettes around certain areas for certain size flats, Id prefer have my own white goods, but some units just dont suit and professional industrial washer/dryers would work all the time, plus they can be run by a person, dont have to sit there and watch them.
2 euro may well be the cost of electricity and paying for repairs and replacement, that its a smaller load probably doesnt make sense, as usually a slightly larger load/size washing machine will not be significantly greater in price.
Nonsense. A typical domestic washing machine is about €250 (it's not industrial types going into these communal laundry sheds) and an expensive unit of electricity is 17c. Low end machines are rated for 4000 cycles. So a machine would be expected to take in €8k before it breaks. A washing machine uses about 1.5kwh for a 2hr cycle, Google a total electrical cost of €1050 for the life of this machine. Total cost of providing the facility is €1300
So yeah, the landlord is creaming it here.0 -
MrMusician18 wrote: »Nonsense. A typical domestic washing machine is about €250 (it's not industrial types going into these communal laundry sheds) and an expensive unit of electricity is 17c. Low end machines are rated for 4000 cycles. So a machine would be expected to take in €8k before it breaks. A washing machine uses about 1.5kwh for a 2hr cycle, Google a total electrical cost of €1050 for the life of this machine. Total cost of providing the facility is €1300
So yeah, the landlord is creaming it here.
That is some biased maths, but nothing surprises me anymore in Ireland. A decent washing machine goes for at least 400 or more. The electricity unit price of your post does not take into account all the electrical bills fixed costs and taxes and so is underestimating at least by 50% the real electricity cost. It is not clear if the washing machine is a washer dryer which consumes much more than 1.5kwh. Maintenance costs: vast majority of tenants (and I had tens of them) do not care about white goods which have to be provided by law (another Irish joke). Every 6-12 months I had to send handyman to perform a cleaner filter and a checkup. Just the call ou time for a cheap handyman in Dublin is at least 45 eur (non urgent), since most tenants have no f...g clue (or better don't care) on how to properly drain the washing machine and clean the filter and run an empty cycle (all while clock of handyman is ticking). Most just (wrongly) assume it is not their problem.
It is the usual back of the envelope calculation I receive from most tenants who have no clue how much Irish labour costs. Is the landlord making some profit in this case? In my opinion probably yes. Is it creaming it? Most likely NO!
Just one question for you? How much would you spend in a laundrette for a full load? Compare it with the 2eur and you will see that nobody is creaming anything! I am sick and tired of this type of generic anti-landlord posts in this forum.0 -
I know what I'd be doing.0
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That is some biased maths, but nothing surprises me anymore in Ireland. A decent washing machine goes for at least 400 or more. The electricity unit price of your post does not take into account all the electrical bills fixed costs and taxes and so is underestimating at least by 50% the real electricity cost. It is not clear if the washing machine is a washer dryer which consumes much more than 1.5kwh. Maintenance costs: vast majority of tenants (and I had tens of them) do not care about white goods which have to be provided by law (another Irish joke). Every 6-12 months I had to send handyman to perform a cleaner filter and a checkup. Just the call ou time for a cheap handyman in Dublin is at least 45 eur (non urgent), since most tenants have no f...g clue (or better don't care) on how to properly drain the washing machine and clean the filter and run an empty cycle (all while clock of handyman is ticking). Most just (wrongly) assume it is not their problem.
It is the usual back of the envelope calculation I receive from most tenants who have no clue how much Irish labour costs. Is the landlord making some profit in this case? In my opinion probably yes. Is it creaming it? Most likely NO!
Just one question for you? How much would you spend in a laundrette for a full load? Compare it with the 2eur and you will see that nobody is creaming anything! I am sick and tired of this type of generic anti-landlord posts in this forum.
Ok well we will use your figures so.
€400 machine (the Beko machines that you see in these common laundries aren't €400 but anyway)
€45 maintenance cost every 6 months
Short lifespan of 4000 cycles, (i.e. cheap machine) 3 cycles a day between 7 apartments, so a 3.5 year lifespan.
2x my electric cost (it isn't that high and there's a landlord account for common areas anyway)
€2/wash
So that's €8000 in revenue.
Less
€400 machine
7x45 Maintenance €315
€2100 electricity
Total costs €2815, so €5185 in pure profit in cash. Although I'm sure every landlord would of course fully declare that income to the tax man.
Even if costs were twice that again, landlords are creaming it on laundry.0 -
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knee jerk reaction much? I'd say you were a bit annoyed reading my post and just had to fire a shot back?MrMusician18 wrote: »You need the facilities I get that,
But Youre only looking at the cost from your own perspective, and while I get that, no one wants to pay more than they want or expect a service costs.
But you dont know how much it costs to provide the service, if there was unlimited access theres an almost certainty that someone would start a laundrette with it or abuse it somehow, think not possible?
I rented out a house once to a couple, one of them not working, anytime I went there were stacks of clothes, they had 2 kids, I didnt cop it until the washing machine, a good brand and in reasonable condition clapped out relatively quickly, bearing went in it, when I had to clean out the filter, it was clogged with lint to an extent I never saw before, I concluded they were using it excessively, could only have been using it to do washinh for other people, another person managed to break a fridge inside a year, but didnt tell me while it was still inside a warranty.
So tenants treat white goods fairly poorly compared to if you own them and had to buy it and pay to replace it yourself, in the end I came to the result, buy the cheapest white goods as people will treat them badly. If you had a good quality item it will just get wrecked anyway.
Multiply that by a number of tenants, end result.
The law around the matter is a joke, people want euro style standards but with Irish restrictive legislation it will never happen,
there should be a thriving business of laundrettes around certain areas for certain size flats, Id prefer have my own white goods, but some units just dont suit and professional industrial washer/dryers would work all the time, plus they can be run by a person, dont have to sit there and watch them.
2 euro may well be the cost of electricity and paying for repairs and replacement, that its a smaller load probably doesnt make sense, as usually a slightly larger load/size washing machine will not be significantly greater in price.
Nonsense. A typical domestic washing machine is about €250 (it's not industrial types going into these communal laundry sheds) and an expensive unit of electricity is 17c. Low end machines are rated for 4000 cycles. So a machine would be expected to take in €8k before it breaks. A washing machine uses about 1.5kwh for a 2hr cycle, Google a total electrical cost of €1050 for the life of this machine. Total cost of providing the facility is €1300
So yeah, the landlord is creaming it here.
I never said the likes of the washing machines operated were industrial types, maybe cool your jets, I said laundrettes should be a thriving business, they have industrial machines, if one is out of action it can have a maintenance person out to fix it, and still have a number running in a business,you don't necessarily have to stay at the machine, I've seen very few laundrettes around but I'd say you drop off your washing like in a dry cleaners, anyway, as I said, people want European/continental style conditions except where it doesn't suit them) but with Irish regulations it's not possible legally, you can't have both. Some places are too small to have a washing machine (I wonder how Eoghans new micro accommodation will work out in that regard?) Economies of scale suggest having an attended wash business (laundrette) rather than having a load of smaller inefficient of variable quality machines dotted around a building. As for cost, most landlords aren't creaming it, i wasnt creaming it before I decided to get out, I was just lucky I decided for other reasons and more regulations were being piled on, with no measures to deal with problems on the tenant end.The same reason it's costs more to buy a sandwhich then it does to make it yourself, people in the chain have to be paid, another poster commented on it, I tried to highlight that the cost of electric, maintenance and ultimately replacement does not make 2 euro a wash seem unscrupulous or criminal, I see some garages that have machines and they charge a lot more.
As for your costs, no average? whats average? washing machine vosts 250, i did my own calcs and came up with running costs of 1500 based on your cycles, but does not include parts or maintenance or any water rates? im nit sure where multi units stand in that, but they will likely have an excess water use charge, so no costs for that! have you ever bought parts? not always cheap, and certainly you will not have any garauntee of any money or duration before maintenance is needed, one person that is careless or dim and that could be one cycle or one week. Not all as cut and dry as you suggest imo.0 -
where are you getting 45 maintenance for every 6 months? that covers nothing, you wouldn't get someone to turn up and look at a machine for that, how you even think you only need 2 maintenance visits a year in a multi unit property is astonishing, I'd be lucky if I had that in a place let to one couple. The absolute minimum cost for what you may describe as average washing machine is 385 not including delivery imo, that's the guts of 400 whatever way you look at it. add 25 to 45 for delivery, haven't looked in a while but that's my recollection.MrMusician18 wrote: »That is some biased maths, but nothing surprises me anymore in Ireland. A decent washing machine goes for at least 400 or more. The electricity unit price of your post does not take into account all the electrical bills fixed costs and taxes and so is underestimating at least by 50% the real electricity cost. It is not clear if the washing machine is a washer dryer which consumes much more than 1.5kwh. Maintenance costs: vast majority of tenants (and I had tens of them) do not care about white goods which have to be provided by law (another Irish joke). Every 6-12 months I had to send handyman to perform a cleaner filter and a checkup. Just the call ou time for a cheap handyman in Dublin is at least 45 eur (non urgent), since most tenants have no f...g clue (or better don't care) on how to properly drain the washing machine and clean the filter and run an empty cycle (all while clock of handyman is ticking). Most just (wrongly) assume it is not their problem.
It is the usual back of the envelope calculation I receive from most tenants who have no clue how much Irish labour costs. Is the landlord making some profit in this case? In my opinion probably yes. Is it creaming it? Most likely NO!
Just one question for you? How much would you spend in a laundrette for a full load? Compare it with the 2eur and you will see that nobody is creaming anything! I am sick and tired of this type of generic anti-landlord posts in this forum.
Ok well we will use your figures so.
€400 machine (the Beko machines that you see in these common laundries aren't €400 but anyway)
€45 maintenance cost every 6 months
Short lifespan of 4000 cycles, (i.e. cheap machine) 3 cycles a day between 7 apartments, so a 3.5 year lifespan.
2x my electric cost (it isn't that high and there's a landlord account for common areas anyway)
€2/wash
So that's €8000 in revenue.
Less
€400 machine
7x45 Maintenance €315
€2100 electricity
Total costs €2815, so €5185 in pure profit in cash. Although I'm sure every landlord would of course fully declare that income to the tax man.
Even if costs were twice that again, landlords are creaming it on laundry.0 -
where are you getting 45 maintenance for every 6 months? that covers nothing, you wouldn't get someone to turn up and look at a machine for that, how you even think you only need 2 maintenance visits a year in a multi unit property is astonishing, I'd be lucky if I had that in a place let to one couple. The absolute minimum cost for what you may describe as average washing machine is 385 not including delivery imo, that's the guts of 400 whatever way you look at it. add 25 to 45 for delivery, haven't looked in a while but that's my recollection.
You'd need over 5 Grand in maintenance to make a loss on that communal machine.
In fact at €2 a wash, and a machine costing a grand And you binned it as soon as it broke would break even after 600 washes or 200 days at three washes a day.
Every single wash after that is at least €1.60 pure profit per wash.
Just another shakedown of tenants for services that should be provided in-apartment.0 -
MrMusician18 wrote: »You'd need over 5 Grand in maintenance to make a loss on that communal machine.
In fact at €2 a wash, and a machine costing a grand And you binned it as soon as it broke would break even after 600 washes or 200 days at three washes a day.
Every single wash after that is at least €1.60 pure profit per wash.
Just another shakedown of tenants for services that should be provided in-apartment.
is it a shakedown? how does that price compare to elsewhere? it is a service provided, you don't know the apartment size suits that though? you're saying it in a way that sounds like you want it to be provided for free? Im all for fair and reasonable, but I'm not convinced 2 euro is a rip off, maybe it should be a washing machine with a larger load capacity or a small one costing less, maybe the OP should bring it up with the landlord or management company if so, but you can hardly expect it for free!0 -
No one is expecting to use the machine for free but It absolutely is a shakedown. It's somewhere between 5x and 10x the cost of running a machine in your own apartment. And to be honest if the apartment isn't big enough to have a washing machine, it not big enough for human habitation. But if it is big enough and the landlord provides a communal machine at €2/wash this is just another revenue opportunity, another chance to fleece the tenants.is it a shakedown? how does that price compare to elsewhere? it is a service provided, you don't know the apartment size suits that though? you're saying it in a way that sounds like you want it to be provided for free? Im all for fair and reasonable, but I'm not convinced 2 euro is a rip off, maybe it should be a washing machine with a larger load capacity or a small one costing less, maybe the OP should bring it up with the landlord or management company if so, but you can hardly expect it for free!
If the charge was 20-50c/wash I'd be saying fair enough0 -
MrMusician18 wrote: »No one is expecting to use the machine for free but It absolutely is a shakedown. It's somewhere between 5x and 10x the cost of running a machine in your own apartment. And to be honest if the apartment isn't big enough to have a washing machine, it not big enough for human habitation. But if it is big enough and the landlord provides a communal machine at €2/wash this is just another revenue opportunity, another chance to fleece the tenants.
If the charge was 20-50c/wash I'd be saying fair enough
The same reason a sandwich you buy is dearer than one you can make yourself, and you suggest you'd want that service at the absolute minimum cost you could provide it yourself for, well go demand a sandwich in a shop at the cost you can provide for it yourself?? Even after all your posts, you have a figure from x (20c) to 150% greater than x (50c), you cant even pin that down, just being unrealistic, thats the only way you are looking at it.
That there's regulation to have to provide white goods at all is ridiculous, a standard that is not present in Europe or elsewhere as far as Im aware, the much hyped European standard/set up everyone wants to go is prevented here by legislation. In that situation there would be nothing to prevent a tenant having all their own stuff (as is common on the continent) The legislation here hamstrings landlords and tenants in numerous ways, blinds tenants to this and is rabidly anti landlord.
A property too small for a washing machine in each unit is not necessarily too small for habitation and a communal washing machine is easily the logical result, the fact that the outcome is worse for tenants (and landlords) proves that the legislation (legislation written and led by clueless morons like the current minister in charge of dealing with such issues,ie an out of touch idiot) forces the landlord to provide the minimum standard and then due to the way things are here, the landlord provides that and only that, the absolute minimum.0 -
The same reason a sandwich you buy is dearer than one you can make yourself, and you suggest you'd want that service at the absolute minimum cost you could provide it yourself for, well go demand a sandwich in a shop at the cost you can provide for it yourself?? Even after all your posts, you have a figure from x (20c) to 150% greater than x (50c), you cant even pin that down, just being unrealistic, thats the only way you are looking at it.
That there's regulation to have to provide white goods at all is ridiculous, a standard that is not present in Europe or elsewhere as far as Im aware, the much hyped European standard/set up everyone wants to go is prevented here by legislation. In that situation there would be nothing to prevent a tenant having all their own stuff (as is common on the continent) The legislation here hamstrings landlords and tenants in numerous ways, blinds tenants to this and is rabidly anti landlord.
A property too small for a washing machine in each unit is not necessarily too small for habitation and a communal washing machine is easily the logical result, the fact that the outcome is worse for tenants (and landlords) proves that the legislation (legislation written and led by clueless morons like the current minister in charge of dealing with such issues,ie an out of touch idiot) forces the landlord to provide the minimum standard and then due to the way things are here, the landlord provides that and only that, the absolute minimum.
No, when there is no machine provided in apartment it is more like saying that you can't make a sandwich at home because I won't prove the equipment, you can only hire the equipment from me though at extortionate rate or be more inconvenienced by getting one from a third party.
The ability to wash your clothes is a fairly basic need that's why extortionate prices are immoral even if not illegal. Metered washing machines that are costing the user 5 to 10 times it what it costs the landlord to provide the service should be considered to not meeting the minimum standard. They are certainly against the spirit of the law.
This is not about being anti landlord. Rents are at all all time high, and some landlords not happy with this see laundry as a way to gouge further and keep their costs down.0 -
MrMusician18 wrote: »No, when there is no machine provided in apartment it is more like saying that you can't make a sandwich at home because I won't prove the equipment, you can only hire the equipment from me though at extortionate rate or be more inconvenienced by getting one from a third party.
The ability to wash your clothes is a fairly basic need that's why extortionate prices are immoral even if not illegal. Metered washing machines that are costing the user 5 to 10 times it what it costs the landlord to provide the service should be considered to not meeting the minimum standard. They are certainly against the spirit of the law.
This is not about being anti landlord. Rents are at all all time high, and some landlords not happy with this see laundry as a way to gouge further and keep their costs down.
Rents are high, and so are taxes, you seem to think its all going into the landlords pocket, more than half goes to the State, should remember that, the landlord has to fund everything out of the balance and the write off from tax is small to make allowances for white goods, the allowance for writing off white goods is over 8 years, a washing machine these days might be lucky to last 4 or 5, depending on the use or abuse it gets, in a multi unit place thats got to be less. Added to that, so long as the service is provided there is nothing to stop anyone going elsewhere if the cost is significantly less, Ive already mentioned why, but landlords typically provide the cheapest products and in my direct experience this is because tenants generally treat landlords property poorly either through negligence or abuse and then complain when it isnt working. The legislation limits the opportunity and incentive to provide a better service.0 -
Only if the landlord is earning at the higher rate of tax, that and the rest go for any other self employed business.Rents are high, and so are taxes, you seem to think its all going into the landlords pocket, more than half goes to the State, should remember that, the landlord has to fund everything out of the balance and the write off from tax is small to make allowances for white goods0 -
TheChizler wrote: »Only if the landlord is earning at the higher rate of tax, that and the rest go for any other self employed business.
what does that even mean? that and the rest? I think you're confusing the issue here,
A big problem about upgrading facilities is that after tax take in a lot of cases there isnt enough (or anything) left to fund anything but the least costly options, with the stroke of a pen, the Govt could have landlords apply for lower tax if it mean returning that benefit back as reduced rent/better facilities/structural upgrades for energy efficiency in set proportions, but there is simply not a benefit (even when you can offset the cost) against current tax, and there may not even be a possibility to fund it by a landlord, added to that legislation which places strict conditions on landlords has very weak conditions and limited or no enforcement when a tenant fails to uphold their obligation (such as paying rent), that landlords dont want to take the risk.
You seem to be saying there are different rates of tax for self employed and PAYE workers? if thats the case can you show that, I thought they were all the same.
I would say most landlords make little or nothing month to month from renting and its more likely they are in the red and are employed in some way like everyone else, either PAYE or self employed. I dont believe taxation of landlords is treated like taxation of self employed, I dont see why you are mixing it into things? there are differences between PAYE and Self employed, but Im fairly sure the rates are still the same, I still dont think its relevant,
I would say the majority of landlords are PAYE likely in line with the percentage of employed people that are PAYE and Self Employed,
You seem to be suggesting there is some preferential tax treatment of landlords??
Im not self employed, but my understanding is self-employed are taxed on profits,
landlords are taxed on income.0 -
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Maybe it's just me but I think quite often on here things come across like landlords have it much worse than the rest of us when it comes to tax, as if there's a special landlord tax of >50% on all related income.what does that even mean? that and the rest? I think you're confusing the issue here,
I'm making the point that a non-landlord self employed person, or even a PAYE person on the upper rates of income tax, USC and PRSI would already be paying similar rates on equivalent income. Also if all someone does for income is rent out one or two properties they could be paying very little tax.0 -
TheChizler wrote: »Maybe it's just me but I think quite often on here things come across like landlords have it much worse than the rest of us when it comes to tax, as if there's a special landlord tax of >50% on all related income.
I'm making the point that a non-landlord self employed person, or even a PAYE person on the upper rates of income tax, USC and PRSI would already be paying similar rates on equivalent income. Also if all someone does for income is rent out one or two properties they could be paying very little tax.
You seemed to imply there is a difference in taxation rates or some differences for self employed and landlords previously, now you are agreeing they are the same, which is what I stated,
What you seemed to have missed that I was suggesting is, that at no cost to anyone the State could with the stroke of a pen, offer private landlords the opportunity of lower tax rates (for rental income) if they passed that on in rent reductions (such a suggestion would benefit the tenant, it will no doubt raise peoples shackles, but if potential landlords are to be encouraged to stay in or enter the market there has to be some incentive, this offers the landlord the opportunity to pass on the tax reduction as a rent decrease).
Percent reductions of tax paid could be given for rent reductions, general upgrades, thermal efficiency upgrades.
IF the State was in anyway concerned about how much rent tenants were paying they could think outside the box a little and rents could actually fall, with no one losing out except the State, they already offer such incentives to REITS, significant incentives.
The State (Revenue) might realise a paltry reduction in income tax incoming but the potential benefits are enormous, and as Ive already suggested
I think that landlords are treated differently from self employed and businesses for tax in that they are taxed (USC and PRSI too) on income, ie the lot, which means this causes commensurate increases for tenants rents, because somewhere along the line (usually at the beginning) the mortgage and other costs have to be paid immediately on a regular basis and taxes not long after that, annually on a regular basis.
Whereas businesses have better protections from rogue customers and criminals, and pay tax only on the profit after costs, which seems to present the opportunity for a much lower tax bill.
Note* the greater the tax bill, the greater the need to have the rent at a level that pays all costs.
I doubt very much many people who rent a property or two could manage to live on the rental of two properties all their potential working lifetime and foot their bills, when all costs have to be paid also (mortages, tax, USC, PRSI, Insurances, maintenance, etc etc), what you're suggesting is if they have no costs, which isnt realistic for the entire duration of ownership, thats more an exception than the rule. I'd say its more typical that landlords have to supplement what is coming in from rent to cover the costs.0 -
TheChizler wrote: »Maybe it's just me but I think quite often on here things come across like landlords have it much worse than the rest of us when it comes to tax, as if there's a special landlord tax of >50% on all related income.
I'm making the point that a non-landlord self employed person, or even a PAYE person on the upper rates of income tax, USC and PRSI would already be paying similar rates on equivalent income. Also if all someone does for income is rent out one or two properties they could be paying very little tax.
You seemed to imply there is a difference in taxation rates or some differences for self employed and landlords previously, now you are agreeing they are the same, which is what I stated,
What you seemed to have missed that I was suggesting is, that at no cost to anyone the State could with the stroke of a pen, offer private landlords the opportunity of lower tax rates (for rental income) if they passed that on in rent reductions (such a suggestion would benefit the tenant, it will no doubt raise peoples shackles, but if potential landlords are to be encouraged to stay in or enter the market there has to be some incentive, this offers the landlord the opportunity to pass on the tax reduction as a rent decrease).
Percent reductions of tax paid could be given for rent reductions, general upgrades, thermal efficiency upgrades.
IF the State was in anyway concerned about how much rent tenants were paying they could think outside the box a little and rents could actually fall, with no one losing out except the State, they already offer such incentives to REITS, significant incentives.
The State (Revenue) might realise a paltry reduction in income tax incoming but the potential benefits are enormous, and as Ive already suggested
I think that landlords are treated differently from self employed and businesses for tax in that they are taxed (USC and PRSI too) on income, ie the lot, which means this causes commensurate increases for tenants rents, because somewhere along the line (usually at the beginning) the mortgage and other costs have to be paid immediately on a regular basis and taxes not long after that, annually on a regular basis.
Whereas businesses have better protections from rogue customers and criminals, and pay tax only on the profit after costs, which seems to present the opportunity for a much lower tax bill.
Note* the greater the tax bill, the greater the need to have the rent at a level that pays all costs.
I doubt very much many people who rent a property or two could manage to live on the rental of two properties all their potential working lifetime and foot their bills, when all costs have to be paid also (mortages, tax, USC, PRSI, Insurances, maintenance, etc etc), what you're suggesting is if they have no costs, which isnt realistic for the entire duration of ownership, thats more an exception than the rule. I'd say its more typical that landlords have to supplement what is coming in from rent to cover the costs.
There is absolutely no way a reduction in tax would be passed on to tenants.
Businesses have less protection and also pay Vat, Emp Prsi, Rates etc etc..
Income is tax adjusted profit, if LL's don't want to pay down their finance, they can source interest only mortgages. Then they can stop feeling that they are being victimised by not deducting capital repayments.0 -
There is absolutely no way a reduction in tax would be passed on to tenants.
Businesses have less protection and also pay Vat, Emp Prsi, Rates etc etc..
Income is tax adjusted profit, if LL's don't want to pay down their finance, they can source interest only mortgages. Then they can stop feeling that they are being victimised by not deducting capital repayments.
The technology exists to support that easily, ie computerisation,
Easy to record it, flag it automatically, highlight complaints, search and check what has been paid.
Businesses have more protection in terms of dealing with customers who go become criminals and steal, landlords dont.
There are no doubt unscrupulous landlords but the people who tenants (and landlords) have to thank for the mess that exists are politicians, who have made an ass of circumstances and compounded problems for good tenants and good landlords by not having a fast track to deal with non paying tenants, this and poorly thought out legislation has hamstrung landlords and cost tenants more in the short and longterm. Non payment is the thing I'd say that concerns landlords most followed by serious damage or deterioration due to vandalism or poor care of a property. There is no way a business would tolerate that once it started happening.
There were already landlords passing on reductions through recognising good tenants, the legislation to limit rent increases isnt a bad thing, but some aspects of it forced landlords to increase to the maximum they might achieve or they would never be able to increase it in anyway other than the set percentages.0 -
The technology exists to support that easily, ie computerisation,
Easy to record it, flag it automatically, highlight complaints, search and check what has been paid.
Businesses have more protection in terms of dealing with customers who go become criminals and steal, landlords dont.
There are no doubt unscrupulous landlords but the people who tenants (and landlords) have to thank for the mess that exists are politicians, who have made an ass of circumstances and compounded problems for good tenants and good landlords by not having a fast track to deal with non paying tenants, this and poorly thought out legislation has hamstrung landlords and cost tenants more in the short and longterm. Non payment is the thing I'd say that concerns landlords most followed by serious damage or deterioration due to vandalism or poor care of a property. There is no way a business would tolerate that once it started happening.
There were already landlords passing on reductions through recognising good tenants, the legislation to limit rent increases isnt a bad thing, but some aspects of it forced landlords to increase to the maximum they might achieve or they would never be able to increase it in anyway other than the set percentages.
There is absolutely no way that tax reductions would be passed onto tenants, because it's not the taxes that determine rents but the market. And when you introduce controls and interference in the market other ways for landlords to attain the real market rent state to arise.
So you see that when we have controls and interference in the market like now landlords seek other ways to maximize the rent. So the carpark space no longer comes with the house or the tenant is charged an extortionate amount to wash their laundry.0
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