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15-04-2019, 22:29   #91
seasidedub
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To posters complaining about people with private health insurance getting access/drugs/treatment faster than public patients - almost all EU countries including Scandinavian countries (I know because I worked there) have robust private health insurance and private hospitals. Those who have either insurance or cash to pay get faster access and treatment in those countries too.

The difference is that the waiting times for access to consultants and elective operations on the public system is very long in Ireland, less so in other countries. But people need to cop on - relative wealth has always been a determinant of health and always will be. And if you work hard, sacrifice to pay insurance (thus removing the burden from the taxpayer....) surely you have a right to fast, efficient care?
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15-04-2019, 22:31   #92
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To posters complaining about people with private health insurance getting access/drugs/treatment faster than public patients - almost all EU countries including Scandinavian countries (I know because I worked there) have robust private health insurance and private hospitals. Those who have either insurance or cash to pay get faster access and treatment in those countries too.

The difference is that the waiting times for access to consultants and elective operations on the public system is very long in Ireland, less so in other countries. But people need to cop on - relative wealth has always been a determinant of health and always will be. And if you work hard, sacrifice to pay insurance (thus removing the burden from the taxpayer....) surely you have a right to fast, efficient care?
Why would you assume that people who can't afford private healthcare don't work hard?
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15-04-2019, 22:34   #93
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Originally Posted by seasidedub View Post
To posters complaining about people with private health insurance getting access/drugs/treatment faster than public patients - almost all EU countries including Scandinavian countries (I know because I worked there) have robust private health insurance and private hospitals. Those who have either insurance or cash to pay get faster access and treatment in those countries too.

The difference is that the waiting times for access to consultants and elective operations on the public system is very long in Ireland, less so in other countries. But people need to cop on - relative wealth has always been a determinant of health and always will be. And if you work hard, sacrifice to pay insurance (thus removing the burden from the taxpayer....) surely you have a right to fast, efficient care?
I work alongside Mexican cleaners who can barely afford insurance. Some can't at all. Who do you think works more hours me or them?
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15-04-2019, 22:39   #94
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I work alongside Mexican cleaners who can barely afford insurance. Some can't at all. Who do you think works more hours me or them?
Are you talking about the States? Different thing - no real public system there. We do have o e and by and large it provides good care.
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15-04-2019, 22:42   #95
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Why would you assume that people who can't afford private healthcare don't work hard?
I'm not presuming- but some people prioritise it over other things and sacrifice a lot to have it.
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15-04-2019, 22:43   #96
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Are you talking about the States? Different thing - no real public system there. We do have o e and by and large it provides good care.
OK who works harder in Ireland. Me or an social worker? I make a lot more than a social worker (which shouldn't be the case).
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15-04-2019, 22:48   #97
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OK who works harder in Ireland. Me or an social worker? I make a lot more than a social worker (which shouldn't be the case).
Sometimes that's just how it is. Are you going to voluntarily take a pay cut?
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15-04-2019, 22:49   #98
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Sometimes that's just how it is. Are you going to voluntarily take a pay cut?
No but I'm not going to spout garbage like someone whose already on less pay than me for what may be equally hard work should also receive less health care than me.
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15-04-2019, 22:52   #99
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OK who works harder in Ireland. Me or an social worker? I make a lot more than a social worker (which shouldn't be the case).
I still think there's lessons to be learnt from China.
They are scoring their citizens by "social credits", good citizens are rewarded.
Sounds a bit like earning "stamps" to get the dole years ago?

Score people based on their contribution to society.
That determines housing, health care etc.

No point on wasting good money on criminals and spongers.
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15-04-2019, 23:26   #100
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It is a bit disturbing that there are people who think just because they are paying they should get access to life-extending treatment that those on the public system would not get, and its evening worse if they think that is what health insurance is for.

That’s exactly what VHI are offering to their customers though? Access to earlier treatments in the event that one should develop a particular form of cancer that they offer earlier treatments for than are available from the HSE, and that’s somehow disturbing? No, that’s simply how private health insurance works, and initiatives like this attract new customers.

I don’t know what to make of people who expect that the HSE should be able to offer the same level of services to the public as private health insurance providers can, certainly not when we’re paying as little for our public health services as we are. I really don’t know what to make of people who expect the HSE to fund niche drugs for a small group of people at the expense of many thousands of other public patients who will have to go without treatments or will have their healthcare significantly cut to allow for the budget to stretch to afford the millions spent on these new wonderdrugs that nobody can be sure are all that effective.

But people who pay privately for their own health insurance are immoral? How the hell does that work?


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They're only saying that because they can currently afford it. Increase the costs so only high earners could afford it and they'd change their views on the morality of healthcare.

I could never afford private health insurance ed. I had to sacrifice many other things to be able to pay for it. I can afford it now, but my views on the morality of healthcare are the same. This has nothing to do with who can or cannot afford private healthcare, it has everything to do with a small number of people who demand the same levels of service of our public healthcare system as there are in the private healthcare system, but don’t want to pay for it themselves. Most people are satisfied with the standard of healthcare they receive in the public healthcare system, because they aren’t actually paying a whole lot for it. Everyone pays a small contribution. When one group demands that nearly all of the HSE budget be spent on wonderdrugs for them, then it really does beg the question -

Where the hell are their morals?
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16-04-2019, 07:26   #101
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Originally Posted by seasidedub View Post
To posters complaining about people with private health insurance getting access/drugs/treatment faster than public patients - almost all EU countries including Scandinavian countries (I know because I worked there) have robust private health insurance and private hospitals. Those who have either insurance or cash to pay get faster access and treatment in those countries too.

The difference is that the waiting times for access to consultants and elective operations on the public system is very long in Ireland, less so in other countries. But people need to cop on - relative wealth has always been a determinant of health and always will be. And if you work hard, sacrifice to pay insurance (thus removing the burden from the taxpayer....) surely you have a right to fast, efficient care?
In most European countries they have robust private health insurance that everyone pays into, and may get a discount on according to their means. In Ireland there is a weird, nhs wannabe system whereby you buy priority with health insurance- which is paid for by some who can afford it and some who can't. Some choose not to buy it even if they can well afford it.

It's just a ridiculous and unfair system from start to finish. Make health insurance mandatory and means tested, and slap a few co-pays on for things like a+e visits for things that can be handled by the gp. Everyone needs to have a base of responsibility for their own health and everyone deserves the highest level of care- but this needs to be bankrolled somehow and has to be equally accessible to everyone. It shouldn't just be for those who can afford it, but everyone should pay what they can afford, even if it's nominal.
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16-04-2019, 09:04   #102
seasidedub
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In most European countries they have robust private health insurance that everyone pays into, and may get a discount on according to their means. In Ireland there is a weird, nhs wannabe system whereby you buy priority with health insurance- which is paid for by some who can afford it and some who can't. Some choose not to buy it even if they can well afford it.

It's just a ridiculous and unfair system from start to finish. Make health insurance mandatory and means tested, and slap a few co-pays on for things like a+e visits for things that can be handled by the gp. Everyone needs to have a base of responsibility for their own health and everyone deserves the highest level of care- but this needs to be bankrolled somehow and has to be equally accessible to everyone. It shouldn't just be for those who can afford it, but everyone should pay what they can afford, even if it's nominal.
Yes - I would like to see a better system in Ireland. I've worked in the health systems of 2 EU countries (Not the UK) and they are far better. But those countries still have fully private systems too and if you have private insurance you get fast tracked - just as in Ireland. I'm simply pointing out that private insurance and fast track access is not a uniquely Irish issue.

Also - for a more european type system - so no GP fees, healthcare centres instead of GP offices etc, would Irish people want to pay additional taxes? (They won't pay for water which Europeans all do) and would GPs agree to become salaried public employees or just leave for the US/Can/Oz as they already do?
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16-04-2019, 09:28   #103
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Faster more convenient accesses in the private health insurance system is not denying anyone in the public system accesses even though they will have to wait for it and it will not be as convenient.

Actually giving one group something that is denied to another group is a different issue.
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16-04-2019, 09:31   #104
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Does anyone have any insight into the basis of this very strange decision by the VHI?

The media have shown little interest in this critical decision apart from the emotive angle of suffering patients.
This is an organisation owned by the citizens of this country.
The VHI are singularly unqualified to decide what drugs should should or should not be reimbursed.
The NCP is the body tasked with the unenviable job of deciding what drugs will be available to patients.
We do not need another body messing around in this critical area.
We already have politicians making knee jerk decisions that play into the money grabbing tactics of the pharma industry.

So the question remains how and why the VHI have gone on this solo run:

A mistake.
A marketing stunt.
A new direction decided at board level.
A new direction decided at board level reviewed and agreed with the Government.

The VHI need to be held to account.

Last edited by paddy19; 16-04-2019 at 09:37.
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16-04-2019, 09:35   #105
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I don’t know what to make of people who expect that the HSE should be able to offer the same level of services to the public as private health insurance providers can, certainly not when we’re paying as little for our public health services as we are. ?
Public health exp is not low in Ireland.

It is relatively high, given the age-profile of our population.
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