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16-04-2019, 01:30   #106
whisky_galore
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During the war the concentration camps were either transit camps or labour camps. The idea that there was mass gassing of the Jews doesn't hold up.
With respect, this is bollocks.
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16-04-2019, 01:33   #107
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What exactly are you talking about here? Israel not having a right to exist or the settlements.
I'm talking about the settlements. There is literally nothing that can ever justify their existence.

With regard to Israel's 'right to exist', personally I believe that it does have this right because the people who live there have now done so for multiple generations, and it would be incredibly unfair to those born into the state and alive there today to simply dissolve the state. However, given that the very existence of the state to begin with stems from an act of partition by the British empire following their usual bullsh!t of using violence to take control of territory miles away from their homeland and then royally f*cking life up for the inhabitants, I don't see it as this unquestionable sacred cow that so many do. If someone believes that Israel does not have a 'right to exist' because they do not believe in legitimising the actions of the British Empire in conquering foreign lands, I personally don't agree with them purely because I believe it to be unfair to the descendants of those alive at the time (much like how I genuinely wouldn't be happy to see a United Ireland unless a majority of Northern Ireland's citizens voted in favour of it) - but it's a perfectly valid and legitimate political viewpoint to have. It does not make an individual anti-semitic to question the legitimacy of a state founded entirely on the back of British colonialism.

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I certainly agree that Israel whould do more to make peace. But are they ever going to be left in peace? Iran has declared an intention to "wipe them off the face of the map". In 2017 Hamas's Mahmoud al-Zahar said:
“We have liberated Gaza, part of Palestine, but I am not prepared to accept just Gaza,” he said.
“Our position is: Palestine in its entirety, and not a grain of soil less,” added Zahar, a former Hamas foreign minister. “Allah did not define the 1967 borders or the 1948 borders. We will fight them wherever we can — on the ground, underground, and if we have airplanes, we will fight them from the skies.”


It is hard to make peace with that - at least you can understand the suspicion, skepticism and caution.
Of course I do, but again: Nothing justifies driving civilians from their homes by military force. Ever. Israel does not have any moral right to one square centimetre of land outside its internationally recognised border, nor does it have any moral right to literally bulldoze civilian homes in the occupied territories as a reprisal for someone's family member being a terrorist. How anyone could justify this is totally beyond me - especially in a country in which reprisals against civilians caused so much bloodshed and misery when practised by the British Army. It's absolutely inexcusable, and nothing can change that. Even if someone literally detonated a nuclear bomb in the middle of Tel Aviv, it still wouldn't justify innocent members of his or her family losing their home because the Israeli government decided to take revenge on them, and not just on the specific individual responsible.

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Anyway this is middle eastern politics. Nothing in it justifies current European anti-semitism.
The issue here is the actual definition of anti-semitism. I cannot find any references to anti-semitism in the UK's Labour Party, for instance, which do not make reference to Israel. Any time I've tried researching the actual nature of the alleged anti-semitism within that party, all I get is example of anti-Zionist / anti-Israeli sentiment. Not anti-semitism. That's the problem.
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16-04-2019, 01:46   #108
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I've often wondered about the history of anti semitism and the fact its goes back through history for thousands of years from 800 BC to the modern day

Here's the wiki

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expu...oduses_of_Jews

Jews have been expelled form European countries for up to 500 years. What is the reason? Different people, different cultures, different times in history all reacting the same way.

If you meet an a**hole in the morning, you've met an a**hole. If you meet a**holes all day, then you're the a**hole.
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16-04-2019, 02:54   #109
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The idea that there was mass gassing of the Jews doesn't hold up.
It says a lot that I'm not remotely surprised to be reading Holocaust denials on After Hours, at this point.
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16-04-2019, 05:42   #110
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During the war the concentration camps were either transit camps or labour camps. The idea that there was mass gassing of the Jews doesn't hold up.
Even if we use your logic, millions of Jews and Poles died in these "labour" camps.

Have you been to Auschwitz-Birkenau? Most of the prisoners were kept in horse stables, and weren't fed properly, so many died from the cold and starvation.

Then of course there was the gassings.

So I can accept perhaps most of the people died from the cold and starvation, but does it really matter?
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16-04-2019, 07:58   #111
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Hitler wanted the Jews out of Germany, not by mass extermination but by mass deportation. Even before the war had started most had already left in an orderly fashion, facilitated by the government. The Transfer Agreement of 1933 meant that many ended up in Palestine.

During the war the concentration camps were either transit camps or labour camps. The idea that there was mass gassing of the Jews doesn't hold up.
You are stating this as fact, but none of the above is true, you do know that right?
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16-04-2019, 07:59   #112
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For the rest of us who aren't denier sh1te like the troll posting old, worn out Holocaust denier memes, there are plenty of sites out there that give facts and details, and refute the denier talking points posted here recently. There's no debate about the Holocaust, what the Germans did, how, when and where. The Germans were meticulous record keepers, proud of their achievements.

One good site if you're interested in Holocaust denial: https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/

Remember that every one of these denier 'arguments' has been destroyed completely. The WUM posting them is just another anti-semite getting his/her jollies winding us up.
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16-04-2019, 08:01   #113
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Originally Posted by hatrickpatrick View Post
The issue here is the actual definition of anti-semitism. I cannot find any references to anti-semitism in the UK's Labour Party, for instance, which do not make reference to Israel. Any time I've tried researching the actual nature of the alleged anti-semitism within that party, all I get is example of anti-Zionist / anti-Israeli sentiment. Not anti-semitism. That's the problem.
The issue here, is Europe and the rise of antisemitism there. Personally don't think it's a rise, it's just a continuation of antisemitic tendencies in European character, driven by politics and religion. Nothing to do with settlements - you can complain about settlements and Israeli government policy all you want, that has nothing to do with painting swastikas on headstones in Romania.
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16-04-2019, 08:55   #114
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Every society seem to need an outgroup of some sort so it must have a function for society ( does not make it right )

In societies that are more or less homogeneous, it will be gay people basically because of an absence of any other political or religious group to turn on.
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16-04-2019, 09:05   #115
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It is possible to criticize the behaviour of the state of Israel , and to condemn Zionism without being anti-Semitic.
Similarly, it is possible to criticize ISIS-Hamas and Hezbollah without being an Islamaphobe.
I have no issue with those of the Jewish faith but I absolutely condemn Israel for its aggressive land grabbing and murderous behaviour.
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16-04-2019, 09:07   #116
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Originally Posted by mariaalice View Post
Every society seem to need an outgroup of some sort so it must have a function for society ( does not make it right )

In societies that are more or less homogeneous, it will be gay people basically because of an absence of any other political or religious group to turn on.
This is true.

It also works on a micro level.

When you're in a group of people in work, or on holidays, they need someone to point their aggression at.

One of the things I've learned is play things straight until the scapegoat has been chosen by the group.
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16-04-2019, 09:28   #117
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Moonage, get out of this thread and dont come back.
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16-04-2019, 09:44   #118
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It is possible to criticize the behaviour of the state of Israel , and to condemn Zionism without being anti-Semitic.
Similarly, it is possible to criticize ISIS-Hamas and Hezbollah without being an Islamaphobe.
I have no issue with those of the Jewish faith but I absolutely condemn Israel for its aggressive land grabbing and murderous behaviour.

Of course its ok to criticise Israeli policies and actions. I suspect that the term "anti-zionism" is often a code for anti-semitism or a denial of Israel's right to exist. Not all who espouse anti-zionism are anti-semitic but all anti-semites are anti-zionist - it gives them a "respectible" place to hide. Lots of the attacks in Europe have been cloaked in "anti-zionism". They are no different to the attacks that used to happen before Zionism was born.



People rarely criticise the likes of Hamas the way they criticise Israel - even though they (Hamas) make little effort to conceal their desire to deal with the "Jews" in the most bloodthirsty way.That is not to mention their treatment of their own people and their violent repression of any dissent. And their is no justice system to appeal to, no "natural justice", no "human rights.


I think lots of people who criticise Israel are genuinely motivated. But the larger movement is heavily infiltrated with anti-semites who use it as convenient cover.
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16-04-2019, 09:56   #119
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Originally Posted by Igotadose View Post
For the rest of us who aren't denier sh1te like the troll posting old, worn out Holocaust denier memes, there are plenty of sites out there that give facts and details, and refute the denier talking points posted here recently. There's no debate about the Holocaust, what the Germans did, how, when and where. The Germans were meticulous record keepers, proud of their achievements.

One good site if you're interested in Holocaust denial: https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/

Remember that every one of these denier 'arguments' has been destroyed completely. The WUM posting them is just another anti-semite getting his/her jollies winding us up.
Straight out of the gate I am no Holocaust denier, it is beyond clear that there was a concerted campaign of demonisation and the "removal" by any means necessary towards Jews and other "undesirables" across fascist Europe in that time period and millions were displaced, worked to death and murdered because of it.

However I'm always concerned when it's stated that there's no debate around history and historical events(there are a couple of rebuttals in that link that could be viewed just as debatable as the denials). Doubly so when it's wrapped up in politics of all kinds. Triply so when it's illegal in some jurisdictions to debate it. That's not far off declaring a heresy in religious terms. No history should fear debate. And there are some issues in the details. Take for example official eye witness accounts of gas chambers at Belsen, a horror that was still in play when western allies and their press and researchers showed up, where they recorded no gas chambers or any of that.

WW2 was a strange war in some ways. The propaganda machine never really switched off after it. Few today would be aware of over a million German men died from exposure, starvation and execution in Allied camps after the war. Never mind the "cleansing" of the old regimes across previously fascist Europe. Well it doesn't suit the post war narrative. People want to see the Spitfires flying over the white cliffs of Dover(commemorating a battle the British would have had a hard time losing).

Hard to fathom today, but even the systematic persecution of the Jews, or the wholesale displacement and butchery of the Slavs wasn't discussed in the post war years, because of the new politics of the rise of the Iron Curtain and the requirement for a de Nazied Germany to be a European buffer against it. It wasn't until one Dr Raul Hilberg wrote pretty much the definitive book on the Holocaust as part of his doctoral theses in the late 50's that the historical narrative was collected in one place(a book well worth reading). Even then it was very much resisted. Even the Israeli Holocaust memorial organisation were wary of it and distanced themselves from it. Publisher after publisher turned his book down and it was finally published by a small printing house in a tiny run with private money behind it. And that was in the early 60's. It would be the late 60's early 70's before it got widespread attention and it didn't get printed in German until the 80's.

The politics also shaped the horror in generational minds too. Because Auschwitz lay behind the Iron Curtain(along with other extermination camps) Belsen on the Western side had been the horror for a generation, the others only really gaining in the public mind as the Soviet Union fell. Today most people under say 60 would think of Auschwitz way before Belsen. It also helps that Auschwitz remained more intact so that horror has a focus whereas Belsen was burnt and bulldozed into the ground.
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16-04-2019, 10:03   #120
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Moonage, get out of this thread and dont come back.
Why, what's he said?
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