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The Good Old Days
Comments
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That has to be the most depressing looking tournament I've ever seen.See photo of Round 1 of the championships here -> http://www.icu.ie/images/13170 -
I think by now that almost everyone (with the probable exception of Reunion) agrees that this year's Irish Championship is far from ideal and that something needs to be done to revive the event before it deteriorates even further. We have more than enough active players of over 1900 to make a decent championship possible so all we have to do is to create the conditions which would be likely to see them participate.
It is very evident that almost none of this year's field are married so obviously family commitments are a big obstacle for many people. Nine days of the summer holidays are not easy to explain away to a loved one unless you happen to be a school teacher or a student of some type. I am not sure how this problem can be addressed, nine rounds in five days perhaps would help and this would have the added advantage of making a hotel much more affordable but I don't know how acceptable this would be.
Location,location,location, another huge factor. My own preference is for somewhere on the outskirts of Dublin (Red Cow , Green Isle) that is easily accessible for people travelling from beyond the Pale but I know that some people prefer a city centre venue or at least somewhere that has a bit more to do for the players when they aren't playing chess. This is another advantage of the 9 rd in 5 day format, less time to be filled in away from the board.
A stronger tournament would undoubtedly attract more players but it is a chicken and egg situation. I am sure that if three or four of our titled players made an early commitment to play then many more strong players would follow suit. Rigidly adhering to an ICU 1900 rating floor would also make a big difference.
Decent grading prizes act as a juicy carrot for those of us with little chance of winning the title.
I am not saying that my proposals are the best possible but something needs to be done and the matter needs to be discussed at the next AGM. THE most important thing is that ONLY those eligible to play in an Irish Championship( ie 1900+players) should have any say in what is to be done. If you let every Tom, Dick and Harry vote then of course they are going to undermine the whole thing just to suit themselves or vote out of ignorance because they have no understanding of what it used to mean to play in an Irish Championship.0 -
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Hi Sodacat11,
You have made a perfectly reasoned argument on a valid discussion about our national chess championship.
You have considered the situation and its importance.
You have observed the trends historical and current.
You have identified failings and problems.
You have articulated alternatives and compromises.
Then just as you get me nodding in agreement to many of your proposals you go and obliterate your valid and reasoned argument with blinding arrogance. Your perception of democracy is different to mine and that of many others I would expect.
I believe everyone entitled to a vote should have a vote.
You believe only you and your mates should vote.
I believe the strength of a union comes from its size.
You believe a union s size comes from its strength.
To label the members of the Irish Chess Union under the elitist rating of 1900 as any Tom Dick or Harry is crass and grossly offensive. The vast majority of the ICU membership is under 1900 the ordinary base of the numerical pyramid that provides the finances that make the playing of the Championships feasible and possible. The event that you so desperately wish to keep away from the input of the ICU membership only exists because of that membership, such an undemocratic and elitist stance have no place in a progressive chess union.
Ask the union members, I m proud to be a Tom Dick and Harry because I m proud to be a member of the union. I agreed with many of your points, especially concerning a fixed criteria for entry. If they were proposed at a union meeting they would find my raised hand behind them in support, as I am sure the majority of Tom Dick and Harry s would. Have faith in your union to deliver what s best for Irish chess not an elitist buddies club with the potential agenda of self interest.
I'm confident that this is not what you desire or wish, that your campaign is aimed at a better championship in the future. However long term the failure to encourage and seek the support of the membership could encourage the opposite of what you yearn for.0 -
Ballynafeigh Chess wrote: »Hi Sodacat11,
You have made a perfectly reasoned argument on a valid discussion about our national chess championship.
You have considered the situation and its importance.
You have observed the trends historical and current.
You have identified failings and problems.
You have articulated alternatives and compromises.
Then just as you get me nodding in agreement to many of your proposals you go and obliterate your valid and reasoned argument with blinding arrogance. Your perception of democracy is different to mine and that of many others I would expect.
I believe everyone entitled to a vote should have a vote.
You believe only you and your mates should vote.
I believe the strength of a union comes from its size.
You believe a union s size comes from its strength.
To label the members of the Irish Chess Union under the elitist rating of 1900 as any Tom Dick or Harry is crass and grossly offensive. The vast majority of the ICU membership is under 1900 the ordinary base of the numerical pyramid that provides the finances that make the playing of the Championships feasible and possible. The event that you so desperately wish to keep away from the input of the ICU membership only exists because of that membership, such an undemocratic and elitist stance have no place in a progressive chess union.
Ask the union members, I m proud to be a Tom Dick and Harry because I m proud to be a member of the union. I agreed with many of your points, especially concerning a fixed criteria for entry. If they were proposed at a union meeting they would find my raised hand behind them in support, as I am sure the majority of Tom Dick and Harry s would. Have faith in your union to deliver what s best for Irish chess not an elitist buddies club with the potential agenda of self interest.
I'm confident that this is not what you desire or wish, that your campaign is aimed at a better championship in the future. However long term the failure to encourage and seek the support of the membership could encourage the opposite of what you yearn for.
*mod snip*
Oh you mean that you only joined the ICU as a paid up member for political reasons very late last year. *mod snip*
All because you are such a fan of "Democracy" that you thought it fair and proper for you to be able to vote at two AGM's for the price of one membership. *mod snip*
*mod snip*
Yes it would be great for the Irish Championships to be organised by you or every Tom Dick and Harry who has a vote.
Sodcat might be mad and way off with some of his notions but he has actually played in an Irish Championships a few times. Knows a thing or two about chess (the game that is)
Amusing to note how little or nothing is wrote here about the actual Irish Championships as a contest and the games played or results. Nice game yesterday by Jessel I thought? Looks like he is unstoppable but maybe Alex Lopez will put a stop to him in the coming rounds.
I dare say that Sodcat would do well to draw with almost any of the 16 players playing this year. And he could have entered the tournament when there was only a single player below 1900, one who nevertheless had a rating of 1847 and is a promising and fast improving junior.
Yes I agree the standard should be 1900 but I would like it clarified if people mean 1900 ICU or 1900 Fide or either. Given that it is the national championships one could argue that it should be ICU 1900, or maybe and 2000 Fide
Which is it to be? I see nothing fundamentally wrong with 1900 Fide or ICU so long as it is strictly followed with very very rare exceptions (that prove the rule)
However the biggest myth is that the event is weak or poor because there are so many players this year under the 1900 - some of whom only entered or were published as entrants at the last minute- thus they did not deter the entry of Sodcat or players higher rated.
The biggest problem (aside from apportioning blame -not the time fr this now) is the lack of good numbers of players 2000 plus playing. More notice of the event and proper ground work done could have made the event far better than it became.0 -
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CafollasCat wrote: »Amusing to note how little or nothing is wrote here about the actual Irish Championships as a contest and the games played or results. Nice game yesterday by Jessel I thought? Looks like he is unstoppable but maybe Alex Lopez will put a stop to him in the coming rounds.
Bit unlikely, I'd have thought.0 -
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CafollasCat wrote: »
Oh you mean that you only joined the ICU as a paid up member for political reasons very late last year.
All because you are such a fan of "Democracy" that you thought it fair and proper for you to be able to vote at two AGM's for the price of one membership.
Unfortunately the last executive made some big mistakes, this being one of them. They removed some paid members right to vote at the AGM as they opened membership for the next year too early. Though that's not for discussion here.CafollasCat wrote: »Yes it would be great for the Irish Championships to be organised by you or every Tom Dick and Harry who has a vote.
Sodcat might be mad and way off with some of his notions but he has actually played in an Irish Championships a few times. Knows a thing or two about chess (the game that is)
Playing in the Irish Championships or having a high rating mean nothing about organising the Irish Championships. When is the last time a high rated player organised the Irish Championships? It's paid for and run by the ICU members. The ICU members get to determine how THEY want to determine THEIR champion. It is not high rated elite getting to decide how to spend other people's money crowning themselves Irish Champion. If the members want an open then it will be an open; if they don't want an open it won't be an open. If the elite don't want to play, then they won't be Irish Champion. Our aim is to run a tournament ICU members are happy with.CafollasCat wrote: »Yes I agree the standard should be 1900 but I would like it clarified if people mean 1900 ICU or 1900 Fide or either. Given that it is the national championships one could argue that it should be ICU 1900, or maybe and 2000 Fide
Which is it to be? I see nothing fundamentally wrong with 1900 Fide or ICU so long as it is strictly followed with very very rare exceptions (that prove the rule)
I would argue for 1900 ICU or 2000 FIDE - considering FIDE ratings are higher than ICU in general by 100 points anyway. So if you have 1900 FIDE it's the same as essentially having an 1800 (or less) ICU rating but you can afford to play in FIDE rated events (which is typically abroad).CafollasCat wrote: »However the biggest myth is that the event is weak or poor because there are so many players this year under the 1900 - some of whom only entered or were published as entrants at the last minute- thus they did not deter the entry of Sodcat or players higher rated.
The biggest problem (aside from apportioning blame -not the time fr this now) is the lack of good numbers of players 2000 plus playing. More notice of the event and proper ground work done could have made the event far better than it became.
We don't know if this year is due to bad timing (David Fitzsimons is going for an IM norm so wouldn't have played irrespective of sub-1900 players) or rule changes. Last year was the first year with these rule changes and the tournament was fine. I would suspect this year is just bad timing (5 players turned down the Olympiad and 3 haven't played enough games so aren't really active in Ireland!). Taking the intermediate as an example - entry in the intermediate jumped from ~30 to ~40 (2014 - 2015) after the rule was implemented but has dropped this year to 17. The standard in that tournament is also about 100 points down (1585 this year, 1656 last year and 1605 in 2014). So I suspect timing could be an issue.
The Junior event seems to be holding stead at ~40 players.
I also feel the fact that the winner of this year's event doesn't get a spot at the Olympiad probably turned some away. Maybe in future it might make sense to move this event to before selections for the Olympiad?
*mod note* Attack the post not the poster. Thank you.Ballynafeigh Chess wrote: »I believe everyone entitled to a vote should have a vote.
You believe only you and your mates should vote.
I believe the strength of a union comes from its size.
You believe a union s size comes from its strength.
...
The vast majority of the ICU membership is under 1900 the ordinary base of the numerical pyramid that provides the finances that make the playing of the Championships feasible and possible. The event that you so desperately wish to keep away from the input of the ICU membership only exists because of that membership, such an undemocratic and elitist stance have no place in a progressive chess union.
THIS!!! Too many high rated players who are quite vocal, believe lower rating = no opinion. They truly fail to realise the 900 sub-1900 members pay for a tournament they aren't entitled to every play in (~75 are entitled to play in it). It cost €4.5k last year of members money to run this tournament, or everyone pays ~€4.65 of their membership fee to run this tournament.0 -
Why on earth should people rated below 1900 have a say in how the Irish Championship should be run when it does not concern them except as spectators? In football ,teams in the Championship and the first and second divisions do not get a vote on matters concerning the Premiership and nor should they.
Someone once said to me that the problem with democracy is that it only counts heads and not what is in those heads. At the time I was aghast at such a comment but following Brexit and the ICU AGM I now must concede that he had a point.
Someone made a silly point about my deciding not to play when there was only one non qualifier in the event. Well,all I can say is that it lucky that I didn't hand over 70 euro to play in a 1900+ event then turned up on the day to find a lot more underrated players playing.
Someone said that I would be lucky to get a draw against any of the participants LOL, I wonder then how I ever managed to beat seven of the eight participants that I have played? (I have a plus score against four of that 8)0 -
Has your account been hacked? Surely you didn't honestly write that above quote and post it here expecting it to be respected.Why on earth should people rated below 1900 have a say in how the Irish Championship should be run when it does not concern them except as spectators?
It's the Irish championship not the Sodacat11 championship! They (the members of the ICU) through their union pay for the venue, they have contributed to the equipment, they have paid for the prize money that you actually want increased and have openly stated so.
If this is the ghastly position you are determined to adopt on this matter I assure you that your appeals will fall on deaf ears and what support you have will quickly evaporate.0 -
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Why on earth should people rated below 1900 have a say in how the Irish Championship should be run when it does not concern them except as spectators? In football ,teams in the Championship and the first and second divisions do not get a vote on matters concerning the Premiership and nor should they.
The Premier league is determined by the FA council which has 10 Premier league reps and 82 non-premier league reps. So yes teams not in the premier league can decide how to run the premier league. For instance they reduced it from 22 to 18 teams in the 1992-93 season.
Your lack of basic research, knowledge and understanding is quite shocking. The Irish Championships is run on behalf of ALL members of the ICU to determine THEIR champion.Someone once said to me that the problem with democracy is that it only counts heads and not what is in those heads.
You would be one of those people that would be better left out of the room when it comes to voting as you are thinking for yourself and not the ICU as a whole.0 -
Someone said that I would be lucky to get a draw against any of the participants LOL, I wonder then how I ever managed to beat seven of the eight participants that I have played? (I have a plus score against four of that 8)
It's ok that means nothing by your own words. They were at a disadvantage and there will be some upsets. Not impressive at all.Before anyone starts banging on about low rated players getting some good results in the Irish Championship let me say that of course there will be some upsets. every dog has his day. I would also point out that the higher rated player is at a disadvantage in these games as he HAS to win, even as black, and often he can overpress in a position where he wouldn't risk it against a peer. Finally, it is hard to get motivated against someone you feel shouldn't even be playing especially when you know that even a draw is going to cost you a hat full of rating points.0 -
More excellent anoraking reunion LOL, you really should consider entering Mastermind!! If you think that Doncaster, Halifax and Grimsby have as much of a say as Chelsea, Man City and Man U then so be it but I can tell you that if any decision was made that didn't suit those big clubs then they would threaten to withdraw and form an elite European league and things would soon be reversed. That is actually what is happening in Irish chess, the people who aren't even eligible to play in The Championship brought in rules which weakened it and now most of the big fish are playing elsewhere e.g Fitzsimons in Budapest or not at all.
I really don't know why you and the righteous Ballynafeigh are even arguing, just look what the Irish Championsship has been reduced to, is that what you really want????
I don't know why I am arguing either because in all likelihood I have played my last Irish Championship and have been perfectly content this week fishing (I caught a pike), playing golf (Captain's prize this weekend), watching Wimbledon and Euro 16 and spending time with my girlfriend. There is more to life than chess!!0 -
If you think that Doncaster, Halifax and Grimsby have as much of a say as Chelsea, Man City and Man U pest or not at all.
When you or other over-1900 players start generating money for the ICU (such as the money generated by those clubs for the FA) then your opinion may carry more weight. At present your opinion is as valid as the beginner who just learned how to play.in all likelihood I have played my last Irish Championship
Oh then you can't comment on the Irish Championships anymore (using your logic). Glad to know you are taking my initial advice.If you can't handle being equal to a fat man or a small girl, don't play chess.0 -
Perhaps you two could do this over email?0
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CafollasCat wrote: »
Well I guess I'm used to seeing either a huge Open with hundreds of players, or when there an elite tournament with only a dozen players, you see lots of flags, logos, cameras and the like.
To be honest, the playing conditions look good for the players (they could maybe have provided separate tables for each board) but for anyone outside of chess (potential sponsors, for example), it's a bit austere looking.0
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