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Sub 2.50 - and beyond!

13567…17

Comments

  • #62
    seanynova
    Registered Users Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭seanynova


    heffsarmy wrote: »
    Running any race during a marathon program is not the same as training specifically for the race. If you train specifically for the race you would run it faster.

    id agree with this....in marathon training, if you were to sacrifice a weekend LSR for a 5m, 10k, 10m or 1/2 marathon race often then your kind of missing out on a lot of key sessions. also these pre-goal-races cannot be done with the proper rest periods, before and after so not only are you not racing to the best of your ability in the race, you have to recover from it which can take from quality sessions following the race...

    for me less is more when it comes to racing in a marathon programme, and when i do plan on racing, i plan a few days rest before hand, but 1 or 'maybe' 2 races in an 18week plan would be plenty for me(depends of the race/convenence)
    i regulary use short races as tempo/PMP runs as i find these easier for the mind to handle but i do run them strictly at required pace even when there is people sprinting past me to the finish line.


  • #63
    woodchopper
    Closed Accounts Posts: 806 ✭✭✭woodchopper


    seanynova wrote: »
    id agree with this....in marathon training, if you were to sacrifice a weekend LSR for a 5m, 10k, 10m or 1/2 marathon race often then your kind of missing out on a lot of key sessions. also these pre-goal-races cannot be done with the proper rest periods, before and after so not only are you not racing to the best of your ability in the race, you have to recover from it which can take from quality sessions following the race...

    for me less is more when it comes to racing in a marathon programme, and when i do plan on racing, i plan a few days rest before hand, but 1 or 'maybe' 2 races in an 18week plan would be plenty for me(depends of the race/convenence)
    i regulary use short races as tempo/PMP runs as i find these easier for the mind to handle but i do run them strictly at required pace even when there is people sprinting past me to the finish line.


    Ah now a twenty second sprint to the finish is not going to have an adverse effect on a tempo run. It would be another thing however if you ran the race 30 seconds a mile faster than targeted effort. A sprint at the end can develop running efficiency but more importantly improve ones confidence. The benefits of the tempo have been gained before the last 150 metres so really taking it easy in the run in makes no sense. Go for it unless you feel a twinge.

    Regards
    Woodchopper


  • #64
    seanynova
    Registered Users Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭seanynova


    woodchopper wrote: »
    Ah now a twenty second sprint to the finish is not going to have an adverse effect on a tempo run. It would be another thing however if you ran the race 30 seconds a mile faster than targeted effort. A sprint at the end can develop running efficiency but more importantly improve ones confidence. The benefits of the tempo have been gained before the last 150 metres so really taking it easy in the run in makes no sense. Go for it unless you feel a twinge.

    Regards
    Woodchopper

    funny you say that, i was actually thinking i would sprint to the finish of some of those, not for pride reasons but for repitition benifits....what do you think would be the appropriate distance for a fast finish to those tempo runs/races? (bearing in mind the races would be between 4m and 10k distance)


  • #65
    woodchopper
    Closed Accounts Posts: 806 ✭✭✭woodchopper


    seanynova wrote: »
    funny you say that, i was actually thinking i would sprint to the finish of some of those, not for pride reasons but for repitition benifits....what do you think would be the appropriate distance for a fast finish to those tempo runs/races? (bearing in mind the races would be between 4m and 10k distance)


    Id say about 2-3 minutes close to VO2 MAX


  • #66
    Gringo78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,120 ✭✭✭Gringo78


    seanynova wrote: »
    funny you say that, i was actually thinking i would sprint to the finish of some of those, not for pride reasons but for repitition benifits....what do you think would be the appropriate distance for a fast finish to those tempo runs/races? (bearing in mind the races would be between 4m and 10k distance)

    I think the benefit of ending a tempo in such a manner runs deeper in that you condition a mental automatic response of always speeding up at the end of a hard run. So at the end of a race you will naturally begin to speed up rather than fade


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  • #67
    thirstywork2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭thirstywork2


    Mc Cormaic can you give us some of your pb's for shorter distances?
    I don't think you can go 3.37 to 2.30 running a marathon each month.
    It doesnt matter what the pace is you run these marathons in wether you run them as a training run they will tax your body but if you plan on racing them you will be burnt out in no time.
    As another poster said would you not aim for sub 3hours.
    I also disagree with most posters that the average club runner can run sub 2.30 unless they have a some talent and are running in excess of 90miles per week.
    Just take a look at the marathon rankings in ireland,not too many ''club runners'' have ran sud 2.30
    11 in total in the Dublin Marathon ran sub 2.30

    My own goal is to run the marathon in sub 2.45 later in the year.Having not run one before my target is based on my shorter distance times.
    Good luck with your training but bring back that target unless there is something you arent telling us ;)


  • #68
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    thirstywork2 wrote: »
    Mc Cormaic can you give us some of your pb's for shorter distances?

    One is on his blog, first entry
    My fastest 5 mile race last year was 35 mins (7 min miles), though I hope to have this down to 6 min miles within the next three months.


  • #69
    Mac Cormaic
    Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭Mac Cormaic


    thirstywork2 wrote: »
    Mc Cormaic can you give us some of your pb's for shorter distances?
    I don't think you can go 3.37 to 2.30 running a marathon each month.
    It doesnt matter what the pace is you run these marathons in wether you run them as a training run they will tax your body but if you plan on racing them you will be burnt out in no time.
    As another poster said would you not aim for sub 3hours.
    I also disagree with most posters that the average club runner can run sub 2.30 unless they have a some talent and are running in excess of 90miles per week.
    Just take a look at the marathon rankings in ireland,not too many ''club runners'' have ran sud 2.30
    11 in total in the Dublin Marathon ran sub 2.30

    My own goal is to run the marathon in sub 2.45 later in the year.Having not run one before my target is based on my shorter distance times.
    Good luck with your training but bring back that target unless there is something you arent telling us ;)

    I'm merely putting the theory to the test whether an average runner can knock that much time off his marathons. My best times over the last two years would be around 6.40 min miles for 5 km and 7 min miles for 5 mile races. My fastest 10 mile was 74 mins (during Cork marathon), and my half marathon is about 1.38. While my times are slow, I attribute them to lack of training, diet and zero speed-work. Obviously my goal is to reduce my times little by little, and if a sub 3 is the best I can achieve over the 9 month training program (I'd be more than delighted), then that will be a fairly accurate summary on how fast an average runner can reduce his times. I wouldn't regard myself as an athletic person at this moment in time, 36 years of age, 13.5 stone and 5'10'', so I'd definitely fit into the category of say the average runner showing up to a 5 mile race (been neither competitive or totally out of shape).

    If anything I'm primarily setting this difficult challenge for myself to make training that be more interesting and enjoyable, and will hopefully pick up a few training techniques and hints along the way. It's interesting that there seem to be a fair amount of people who think its to big a challenge to achieve, but at the same time have that questionable doubt 'is there a slight possibility it can be'! I'll do a marathon run at the end of February somewhere, (possibly in Killarney national park as the track has already been measured before) and hopefully by then I'll be at my natural fitness of around 3.35/40. In my eyes that will be a great progression towards slowly reducing times over the next 9 months.

    Regarding burnout it's something I will have to be very careful about, that and making sure I don't get any serious injuries along the way.


  • #70
    zico10
    Registered Users Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭zico10


    I'm surprised it was January when this thread was last updated. But I'll bump it up and ask my question here, as the training I'd have in mind, would have sub 2.45 territory as a target time.

    What is the optimum distance that should be covered in an interval session? And what would be considered too much? I am only referring to the hard running done during the session, so leave out the recoveries, warm up and cool down.
    I'm not looking for specific advice on number of reps that should be ran either, but feel free to advise.
    To illustrate my point, is let's say 10km, the longest total distance that should be undertaken? The session itself could be 10 x 1km, or 5 x 2km. It is the total distance I'd like people's opinions on.

    Thanks,
    Zico


  • #71
    ecoli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,762 ✭✭✭✭ecoli


    zico10 wrote: »
    What is the optimum distance that should be covered in an interval session? And what would be considered too much? I am only referring to the hard running done during the session, so leave out the recoveries, warm up and cool down.
    I'm not looking for specific advice on number of reps that should be ran either, but feel free to advise.
    To illustrate my point, is let's say 10km, the longest total distance that should be undertaken? The session itself could be 10 x 1km, or 5 x 2km. It is the total distance I'd like people's opinions on.

    Thanks,
    Zico

    I think Daniels has it right with this as he puts volume of sessions as a percentage of you weekly mileage. It also comes down to exactly what pace you are running

    Here are rough figures I think fit for marathon training of 80mpw which should help give you

    Rep pace (roughly mile pace) 3-5% (roughly 5k worth )
    Interval Pace (5k-10k pace) 6-8 % (Roughly 5-6 miles worth)
    Threshold pace ( HMish pace) roughly 10% (6-8 miles)
    MP pace 12-15% (10-12 miles)

    These are more starting points on which you can progress ie add extra reps as you improve fitness etc but should be a decent enough guide

    (I know Rep pace does not place too much importance in many marathon training plans but of those who do add the emphasis is on short slightly slower reps with high volume which is why it may look a little excessive to many runners when they see mile pace)


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  • #72
    dev123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 420 ✭✭dev123


    Not sure if this thread is already included but I would nominate it as one that shouldn't slip through the cracks. I might need it in about 10 years!


  • #73
    pconn062
    Registered Users Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    I wonder could we get Mac Cormaic back on here to see if he achieved his sub 2.30 marathon?? :) I'm curious now...


  • #74
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    pconn062 wrote: »
    I wonder could we get Mac Cormaic back on here to see if he achieved his sub 2.30 marathon?? :) I'm curious now...

    He stopped updating his blog in February...


  • #75
    ecoli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,762 ✭✭✭✭ecoli


    RayCun wrote: »
    He stopped updating his blog in February...

    Last post was about the Portumna Ultra so maybe he thought sub 2.30 was too easy a target


  • #76
    pconn062
    Registered Users Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    Ah well that's not a good sign is it?! I suppose I was asking slightly tongue in cheek!


  • #77
    zico10
    Registered Users Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭zico10


    ecoli wrote: »
    I think Daniels has it right with this as he puts volume of sessions as a percentage of you weekly mileage. It also comes down to exactly what pace you are running

    Sorry, I'm not familiar with Daniels. But let's say my pace for a 1km interval is 3.40/km, does that help? Too Fast? Too Slow?
    ecoli wrote: »
    Here are rough figures I think fit for marathon training of 80mpw which should help give you

    Rep pace (roughly mile pace) 3-5% (roughly 5k worth )
    Interval Pace (5k-10k pace) 6-8 % (Roughly 5-6 miles worth)
    Threshold pace ( HMish pace) roughly 10% (6-8 miles)
    MP pace 12-15% (10-12 miles)

    This may be a stupid request, but could you clarify the above? You'll have to explain it to me like I'm a 6 year old.
    I'm not sure I've heard of rep pace before, what is it?
    Why don't the distances add up to 80 miles? And why don't the percentages add up to 100.
    Finally can I take it that 5-6 miles, is enough of a combined distance to cover, during an interval session?


  • #78
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    zico10 wrote: »
    I'm surprised it was January when this thread was last updated. But I'll bump it up and ask my question here, as the training I'd have in mind, would have sub 2.45 territory as a target time.

    What is the optimum distance that should be covered in an interval session? And what would be considered too much? I am only referring to the hard running done during the session, so leave out the recoveries, warm up and cool down.
    I'm not looking for specific advice on number of reps that should be ran either, but feel free to advise.
    To illustrate my point, is let's say 10km, the longest total distance that should be undertaken? The session itself could be 10 x 1km, or 5 x 2km. It is the total distance I'd like people's opinions on.

    Thanks,
    Zico

    Im training for Rotterdam in Spring.

    Will be doing 10k intervals, HM Intervals, M Intervals.

    17 weeks to Rotterdam:

    Next 4 weeks: 10k sessions, XC races
    Following 6 weeks: HM pace sessions starting at 12k building up to 22-23k

    eg 10 by 2k with 2 min jog between; 7 by 3k with 3 mins jog,

    Last 7 weeks:

    Marathon pace intervals:

    18k-26k: eg

    6 by 3k at MP 1k steady in between; 6 by 4k 1k steady in between.

    As i get closer to race day i will reduce my mileage and a higher percentage will be at race specific intervals, with more easy running in between.

    These paces are current 10k, HM and M pace fitness.


  • #79
    ecoli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,762 ✭✭✭✭ecoli


    zico10 wrote: »
    Sorry, I'm not familiar with Daniels. But let's say my pace for a 1km interval is 3.40/km, does that help? Too Fast? Too Slow?

    I am guessing that these are hard sessions where you are running @ roughly 95% (Basically the pace you can run for say a 5k race per km) with decent recovery
    zico10 wrote: »
    I'm not sure I've heard of rep pace before, what is it?

    Rep pace is effectively the pace you will hold for a 1 mile race. This would be used if you were say running 200m or 400m reps with equal recovery
    zico10 wrote: »
    Why don't the distances add up to 80 miles? And why don't the percentages add up to 100.

    They dont come up to 100% because these only make up a small bit of your overall weekly mileage. So if you run 80 miles a week you will run 2 sessions with the volume of each session coming up to the percentages I have mentioned. The harder the intensity the less volume. I have rough paces put in the brackets and the volume in relation to an 80mile week in the second bracket depending on the emphasis of the session. The rest of the week will be made up with easy aerobic running

    If you are running 5k-10k paced session I think that with marathon runners this is a good volume provided you are running enough mileage per week. The volume of sessions should be proportional to the volume of miles per week

    So a 80 mpw runner may do 2 sessions a week of any combination of these sessions:

    Mile race pace reps: 12/24 x 200m/400m off equal recovery
    5k-10k pace reps: 5-6 miles of work with shorter recoveries
    HM pace: 6-8 miles with very short recovery (or tempo runs of 5-6)
    Marathon pace: 10-15 miles @ MP with very short/no recovery


    Hope this helps give you an idea


  • #80
    --amadeus--
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,096 ✭✭✭--amadeus--


    T runner wrote: »
    Im training for Rotterdam in Spring.

    17 weeks to Rotterdam:

    Bloody hell I hadn't realised it was that close :eek:


  • #81
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    --amadeus-- wrote: »
    Bloody hell I hadn't realised it was that close :eek:

    Its sneaking up allright!


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  • #82
    ecoli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,762 ✭✭✭✭ecoli


    Gonna revive this thread as looking at the Forum over the last while there are atleast double if not treble the amount of people who are in this range as there was back in the days of the Sub 3 hour thread. Been the lack of training talk recently outside of the logs so I thought this may revive a little bit of discussion

    Given that you are roughly 24 weeks out from Dublin its not a bad time to start talking training methods for people to start to work out how they are going to approach it or try have questions answered by others who have been there and done that


  • #83
    tunguska
    Registered Users Posts: 3,545 ✭✭✭tunguska


    ecoli wrote: »
    Gonna revive this thread as looking at the Forum over the last while there are atleast double if not treble the amount of people who are in this range as there was back in the days of the Sub 3 hour thread. Been the lack of training talk recently outside of the logs so I thought this may revive a little bit of discussion

    Given that you are roughly 24 weeks out from Dublin its not a bad time to start talking training methods for people to start to work out how they are going to approach it or try have questions answered by others who have been there and done that

    Definitely been a lot more people breaking 2:45 compared to just two years ago. Our own nike Oregon project .....The idea has been suggested a good few times but never came to fruition but it'd be great to get a group of us together to train for a marathon. I mean regular sessions, not just the odd recovery run here and there, all of us on the same training program. I think we shoot ourselves in the foot by not making more of an effort to train as a group.


  • #84
    ecoli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,762 ✭✭✭✭ecoli


    tunguska wrote: »
    Definitely been a lot more people breaking 2:45 compared to just two years ago. Our own nike Oregon project .....The idea has been suggested a good few times but never came to fruition but it'd be great to get a group of us together to train for a marathon. I mean regular sessions, not just the odd recovery run here and there, all of us on the same training program. I think we shoot ourselves in the foot by not making more of an effort to train as a group.

    I'm not doing Daniels :D


  • #85
    ThePiedPiper
    Registered Users Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭ThePiedPiper


    Ecoli's revived the sub 2:45, which has great training ideas in there and will hopefully be added to by the many posters who've made big gains over the last couple of years.

    I've decided to start this sub 2:50 thread because for most, I would say that 2:49 would be the logical next target after a sub-3 marathon. The vast majority of sub-3 marathoners would be capable of running the half marathon in 1:24 or under, so there is a certain amount of speed there.

    From my own personal point of view, performances have levelled out since the first sub-3 I did, primarily down to work/college life factors preventing prolonged periods of high mileage training. I did another 2:58 last Autumn, and managed a 1:22 half on a fairly tough course this March. I've maintained reasonably good shape off modest enough training since the start of the year.

    I'm in for Chicago on October 13th. It's a fast course and if weather plays ball, could give me a good chance of running a decent time. 2:50 is definitely ambitious at this moment in time, but if things go according to plan, I'll be in a position to hit the marathon-specific training phase for that target in August/September.

    My plan of action is to ramp up the mileage fairly aggressively over the next month. June/July will be primarily low intensity, high mileage conditioning. I may do one or two races during this period, but the aim is really mileage.

    In August, I'll most likely do the National Halfs in Dublin. If I can run 1.21-1.22 there off the non-specific training, I'll commit myself fully to the time target, and start the specific work with PMP set at 6:28.

    Anyone else with similar targets, be great to get sharing some thoughts.


  • #86
    ecoli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,762 ✭✭✭✭ecoli


    I would say it is better pool the information and camaraderie for the sake of five minutes between the two threads. If you look to the start of the thread the person who started it was actually talking of moving from 2.58 - 2.50.

    Previously on the forum the likes of KC and some of the old guard pooled together on a thread which was hugely successful even for people slightly outside of target range. the aim of the thread is to have a natural progression on from Sub 3 targets.

    Perhaps it should be renamed but ultimately I think pooling the two would be more beneficial for everyone


  • #87
    ThePiedPiper
    Registered Users Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭ThePiedPiper


    No worries. Feel free to delete this thread, or move my post into the sub 2:45 thread. I suppose felt slightly out of my depth with the likes of some of the guys in the sub 2:45 thread, who are actually running in the 2:30 - 2:40 range, which would probably never be realistic for me personally.

    However, it does make more sense to keep it all together. Shut this one down if you want. Cheers.

    Actually, scratch that, I'll just copy it in there myself.


  • #88
    ecoli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,762 ✭✭✭✭ecoli


    RunForestRun wrote: »
    I suppose felt slightly out of my depth with the likes of some of the guys in the sub 2:45 thread

    To this I have one response

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=52935733&postcount=1

    We always look to guys running faster and think its not possible but to be honest alot of the time it is just us being a few steps behind them in our training life.


  • #89
    ThePiedPiper
    Registered Users Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭ThePiedPiper


    Good point Ecoli. I'm not big into putting limitations on myself, but realistically, getting down below 2:45 would take a hell of a lot more consistency than I've had for the last couple of years. The next couple of years should allow for steadier year-round training hopefully.

    I've probably relaxed a little into a relative comfort zone in the last couple of years. There is constant improvement with PBs at all distances last year, and so far this year in the 5k and the half. But, I think I need a big of a major target to get me moving a bit. Sub 2:55 would probably be a bit soft, and not much different from the 2:58 in reality. I'd love to have been doing more consistent training since January, but I suppose I am where I am. As it stands, the 10k I did two weeks ago was the exact same time as a July 10k last year, with this year's one on a much tougher course, so I'm well ahead of where I was in May last year.

    You plan on marathoning this Autumn yourself or are you giving it another year or two?


  • #90
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,495 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    ecoli wrote: »
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=52935733&postcount=1
    :D That's gas.


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  • #91
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    ecoli wrote: »

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=52935733&postcount=1

    Wow, That's one to bookmark!!


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