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Cats

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭Eddie B


    I'm interested in the basis for this. Cats have been on this island for thousands of years; mink only about 70. I don't understand the basis for comparison.

    Or is it the case that cats are supposed to be domesticated, and that it's when they go feral that they count as invasive and non-natural in whatever habitat they happen to be operating in?

    Well for me, that's exactly it. House cats are not seen as part of our wildlife species. You won't find them in any wildlife books, so for me, it is unnatural to have them in the wild. They are here a long time yes, but like dogs, have been kept as pets. We don't have true wild cats here in Ireland. In Scotland, the wild cat is in danger of extinction partly because of inter breeding with feral cats. We wouldn't be ok with feral dogs going around, so why would we with feral cats.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 3,067 Mod ✭✭✭✭OpenYourEyes


    I'm interested in the basis for this. Cats have been on this island for thousands of years; mink only about 70. I don't understand the basis for comparison.

    Or is it the case that cats are supposed to be domesticated, and that it's when they go feral that they count as invasive and non-natural in whatever habitat they happen to be operating in?

    Mink are having a negative effect on our native wildlife. Cats are having a negative effect on our native wildlife. Grey Squirrels are having a negative effect on our native wildlife. That's the commonality.

    Some species such as Fallow Deer and Rabbits have been here for a long time and aren't observed to have much of a negative effect on our native wildlife (though I'm sure there are botanists who would disagree) so they're considered 'naturalised'. Sika, on the other hand, are increasing hugely in numbers and distribution and are hybridising with our Red Deer so are seen to have more of a negative impact than Fallow Deer, hence why there's generally more of a negative opinion of Sika than Fallow Deer.

    (that's my attempt at succinctly describing something that's quite complex and not necessarily consistent)

    I'm not sure if there's much evidence for cats existing in Ireland in a feral and widespread state until relatively recently?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,473 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    Mink are having a negative effect on our native wildlife. Cats are having a negative effect on our native wildlife. Grey Squirrels are having a negative effect on our native wildlife. That's the commonality.

    Some species such as Fallow Deer and Rabbits have been here for a long time and aren't observed to have much of a negative effect on our native wildlife (though I'm sure there are botanists who would disagree) so they're considered 'naturalised'. Sika, on the other hand, are increasing hugely in numbers and distribution and are hybridising with our Red Deer so are seen to have more of a negative impact than Fallow Deer, hence why there's generally more of a negative opinion of Sika than Fallow Deer.

    (that's my attempt at succinctly describing something that's quite complex and not necessarily consistent)

    I'm not sure if there's much evidence for cats existing in Ireland in a feral and widespread state until relatively recently?

    I've no evidence, but I'd be surprised if there haven't been feral cats in Ireland as long as there have been domestic. That said, there has surely been an explosion in numbers of cats held domestically, which must surely imply a concomitant explsion in numbers of ferals.

    But I think the negative effect thing migt be overestimated; it's certainly contested. The argument seems to be, yes, cats kill loads and loads of stuff, but not enough to negatively affect overall population balance in prey species. Ref the RSPB thing on wild birds in the UK I linked to before, and the stats on Blue Tit population. [From post 20: (https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wi...ird-declines/). Again, to put this in context, and to take Blue Tits alone, it is estimated that 25 million more Tits hatch each year than are necessary to sustain the Blue Tit population as it stands. That many die anyway.]

    There's also this, which I found persuasive: American researchers put cat-cams on a sample of domestic cats to track their activies. They concluded that "only 30% of [cats] ever caught anything. The number of victims was 2.1 per cat each week, 13% of them birds. This suggested that house cats kill about 500m birds every year in the United States. Feral, or ‘stray’, cats were not included in the study."

    Extrapolated to Ireland, the writer of this piece (https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-20231047.html) suggested that "If the predatory behaviour of US and Irish cats is similar, we have between nine and 25m bird casualties here annually".

    However, "The domestic cat is more of an alien at the far side of the Atlantic than it is here ... On our side of the Atlantic birds have ‘co-evolved’ with wild cats over millennia. They have learned to cope with them. In America, the house cat was introduced by Europeans comparatively recently so the native birds may be less well equipped to deal with it. It takes time to establish equilibrium between species."

    That said, "scientists at the Smithsonian Conservation Biology Institute and the US Fish and Wildlife Service have come up with new estimates; they argue that cats do much more damage than was previously thought".

    In the US, "stray cats, living wild, do much more damage than domestic ones, according to the new report. They account for 69% of all bird deaths due to cats and 89% of mammal deaths. Between 1.4 and 3.7bn birds are killed annually by cats in the US and the number of mammal victims may be as high as 20.7bn."

    So, in terms of human-introduced factors in the US, "More birds and mammals die as a result of cats than are poisoned, collide with windows or are struck by vehicles and wind-turbines."


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,473 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    Eddie B wrote: »
    Well for me, that's exactly it. House cats are not seen as part of our wildlife species. You won't find them in any wildlife books, so for me, it is unnatural to have them in the wild. They are here a long time yes, but like dogs, have been kept as pets. We don't have true wild cats here in Ireland. In Scotland, the wild cat is in danger of extinction partly because of inter breeding with feral cats. We wouldn't be ok with feral dogs going around, so why would we with feral cats.

    That's fair enough!


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭blackbox


    Horses - they're not native.

    Coming over here and eating our grass...

    .


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,204 ✭✭✭dodderangler


    blackbox wrote: »
    Horses - they're not native.

    Coming over here and eating our grass...

    .

    Horses arent running rampant killing species already in decline!!! Try again!


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,991 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    I've heard plenty of anecdotal evidence of cats learning to hunt with the bell/collar - altering their movements to ensure it doesn't give them away. I've even heard one person say their cat had learned to cope with two bells! They're better than nothing, but certainly not the perfect solution to the whole problem.

    This recent paper on cat predation says only 18% of kills were brought home!
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2351989420307393

    It also says that most hunting was at night, so if you keep your cat in at night, you've reduced the issue dramatically.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭✭BloodBath


    Wrong. Foxes despite the fact they do come to chucken coops they hardly take more than they need. A feral cat will and keep in mind yet again we ARE talking about FERAL CATS!! Feral cats are ten times worse than a house cat when it comes to killing. Tell you what. Why don't you go out and get close to a feral cat. Let me know how you get on then seeing as they're so sweet natured as you seem to believe!!! You clearly have no contact with the outside world mate.

    Right calm down. I've never heard of it happening and I know a few farmers who keep chickens. Must be some crazy wild cats out in the sticks.

    I don't think they are sweet natured. They are predators with hunting instincts and they breed like rabbits. They need to be neutered to control the numbers.

    Having millions of them as pets causes problems. I'm not saying they don't.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,204 ✭✭✭dodderangler


    BloodBath wrote: »
    Right calm down. I've never heard of it happening and I know a few farmers who keep chickens. Must be some crazy wild cats out in the sticks.

    I don't think they are sweet natured. They are predators with hunting instincts and they breed like rabbits. They need to be neutered to control the numbers.

    Having millions of them as pets causes problems. I'm not saying they don't.

    Sorry I thought it was ankther fella.
    Neutering them will only stop them breeding but it won't stop them coming out and killing mate. And then you've got house cats etc that'll meet them and mate and maybe they won't go back home then you'll still have feral kittens about.
    Wont stop them killing


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,224 ✭✭✭zerosugarbuzz


    Sorry I thought it was ankther fella.
    Neutering them will only stop them breeding but it won't stop them coming out and killing mate. And then you've got house cats etc that'll meet them and mate and maybe they won't go back home then you'll still have feral kittens about.
    Wont stop them killing

    As you call yourself dodder angler it’s not a huge leap of faith to assume you fish. Do you not see the irony in a man complaining about cats killing when he himself enjoys killing for sport.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭Eddie B


    Another thread that is going nowhere, and could do with locking up.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 76,207 Mod ✭✭✭✭New Home


    Mod: And locked it shall be.

    Just a few reminders, applicable to everybody:

    1. Be civil. If you can't be civil, don't bother posting.
    2. No backseat moderation. The report function is there for a reason.


This discussion has been closed.
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