What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

suicide_circus · 17-06-2020 1:58pm

RyanthePirate wrote: »

Wibbs you were once an incredibly insightful, knowledgeable poster who many looked up to.

how do you know that? you're only just registered

KaneToad · 17-06-2020 2:00pm

RyanthePirate wrote: »

Now you are implying that people of certain religions are more likely to engage in sexual abuse.

What do you think about the religious practice of circumcising male infants?

Wibbs · 17-06-2020 2:01pm

RyanthePirate wrote: »

Wibbs you were once an incredibly insightful, knowledgeable poster who many looked up to.

Now you are implying that people of certain religions are more likely to engage in sexual abuse.

Wouldn't that mean that Irish catholics would be one of the most feared groups for other countries considering the long and established history of Irish Catholics raping young children both here, in America and in Missionaries around the world?

Wow, it's amazing how your politic affects your reading comprehension.

1) it's not a religious thing as such, outside of the usual Abrahamic women are lesser beings stuff which doesn't help.

2) It's more a cultural thing. The grooming gangs of "Asian"(as the UK describes them) men are nearly always of Pakistani extraction. No Iranian, Saudi gangs involved, who are also Muslims.

3) Yes Catholic priests and Irish ones were more likely to be involved in sexual abuse and not just in Ireland. I have no problem with that position. Does this mean all even most Catholic priests or laypeople condoned this? Of course not, but it doesn't take away from the fact that Irish Catholic priests were more of a risk for sexual abuse.

RyanthePirate · 17-06-2020 2:01pm

biko wrote: »

No, Muslim immigration doesn't automatically lead to child grooming gangs.
Happy?

Feel free to report any post where I have said grooming gangs are Muslims.

I am still waiting for your Irish sources btw.

I see you deleted your post saying the opposite in the Dijon thread and even had my post quoting yours scrubbed.

Its good to hear that you have retracted your previous position that Muslim Immigration = Child grooming gangs.

It seems you are learning Biko.

biko · 17-06-2020 2:02pm

OP is right that immigration has a positive effect on the economy.
There are thousands of people here that work for Irish, British or US companies.
"Immigration" itself isn't bad.

17-06-2020 2:02pm

endacl wrote: »

Hard to imagine a dish that can’t be improved by adding a dash of spice.

Good thing.

You mean like if the dish is the middle East and the spice is Jews from eastern Europe?

Or the dish is south Africa and the spice is the white descendents of Dutch and British settlers?

El_Duderino 09 · 17-06-2020 2:02pm

Wibbs wrote: »

I disagree too.

Because it doesn't work out too well long term and this is repeated in every European nation that tried it, or were forced into it by their history of colonialism. It doesn't work out too well for the immigrant population, even many generations in and unrest on the back of disenfranchisement is a given to kick off. It nearly always also depends on the demographics involved. Those who look the least like "natives" get the worst end of the deal. Find me a European nation where those of African origin don't overwhelmingly cluster at the lower end of their societies.
...

It worked out for Irish people even when they didn't do much to assimilate. Irish people are grand in the UK and America now. I often meet North English people through work and I think they have a better first Impression of an Irish person than someone from southern England. They often telle they have an Irish grandparent and how much they enjoyed their holiday in Ireland or they'd like to go to Ireland one day.

It can work out grand if the host nation forgets to be racist towards the I migrating cultures as the English did with Irish people. It remains to be seen if Irish people will be determined to see Multiculturalism as poor, dirty people who are here to cause crime and steal our jobs and our women. Or if we help them assimilate and treat them fairly - though we treat poor Irish people pretty badly in a lot of ways too.

RyanthePirate · 17-06-2020 2:03pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Wow, it's amazing how your politic affects your reading comprehension.

1) it's not a religious thing as such, outside of the usual Abrahamic women are lesser beings stuff which doesn't help.

2) It's more a cultural thing. The grooming gangs of "Asian"(as the UK describes them) men are nearly always of Pakistani extraction. No Iranian, Saudi gangs involved, who are also Muslims.

3) Yes Catholic priests and Irish ones were more likely to be involved in sexual abuse and not just in Ireland. I have no problem with that position. Does this mean all even most Catholic priests or laypeople condoned this? Of course not, but it doesn't take away from the fact that Irish Catholic priests were more of a risk for sexual abuse.

Well using your own logic Wibbs if its not a religious thing then I suppose you agree saying that Irish people are more likely to be paedophiles considering its no longer Catholics or clergy but a cultural thing.

So culturally Irish people have a higher likelihood of being paedophiles?

biko · 17-06-2020 2:03pm

RyanthePirate wrote: »

I see you deleted your post saying the opposite in the Dijon thread and even had my post quoting yours scrubbed.

Its good to hear that you have retracted your previous position that Muslim Immigration = Child grooming gangs.

It seems you are learning Biko.

Now you're just acting like a troll.

Either you have something concrete to say and can back it up, or you're just being purposely obtuse and inflammatory.

Wibbs · 17-06-2020 2:04pm

KaneToad wrote: »

What do you think about the religious practice of circumcising male infants?

And pubescent girls. Though both have their background in cultural practice, the religion stuff is more of an overlay. EG Jews and Muslims circumcise boys, but Christians don't have to by religious decree. Why? Because the new Abrahamic faith was absorbed by the Classical world where it was seen as something only the primitives beyond the gates did, so it was dropped. Same for the food restrictions of the other two faiths. Even today, try separating an Italian from his pork foodstuffs. Good luck. I'll bring grapes to you in hospital.

na1 · 17-06-2020 2:07pm

This is the same as asking: are Irish people good citizens?

It all depends on WHO is immigrating.
The refugee who is living in a council house with a large family with no intention to find a job?
Or the highly skilled doctor or IT professional?

completedit · 17-06-2020 2:08pm

I lived in Prague. Seems a multicultural city that does well. Huge Vietnamese population who seemed integrated. Big Russian population too and I've heard they can stick to themselves but I wasn't able to tell the difference. Then you have huge amounts of random immigrant groups and everyone gels together but it's all through English. You can live there and never utter a word of Czech. If English wasn't so dominant that would probably cause problems but Czechs are happy to adapt

ELM327 · 17-06-2020 2:10pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Allowing our EU friends in has proved to be a positive for Ireland, high employment rates, compatible culture, a lot of integration and very friendly people who put roots down and contribute to the community.

Some non EU migrants such as tech workers from the states and Asia work pretty well, although integration into our customs is pretty low among among the asian community but there are no real negatives associated with such.

migration from South America, Africa, the Middle East and some west asian nations (Pakistan etc..) has proven disastrous. High Unemployment, High welfare dependance, low education, high levels of criminality, almost no integration, remunerating a lot of money to their home countries and not spending in the local economy, complete cultural incompatibility and a lack of co-operation with gardai. We were promised their doctors and engineers, we got their equivalent to 'Anto from the flats'

I agree.
In my team at work, I am the only irish person on it. We had to "import" the rest (often at the company's expense) as the required skills were not available here. That type of skilled immigration is quite frankly needed. It would be worth noting that, due to the specialization involved, those who immigrate here for specific roles like in my example are likely to be highly remunerated and thus contribute much to the tax take.

On the other hand, places like direct provision centres, local authority housing schemes, HAP houses, council houses etc are occupied by groups of people (including lazy irish people too, this isnt a race thing) who are leeching from the system, who we don't want or need.

I'd have no problem with unlimited access for the former group and no access at all to anyone looking to move here to fit into the latter group.

Shakey_jake · 17-06-2020 2:10pm

Good if our cultures are mostly aligned

Bad if our cultures are not

Wibbs · 17-06-2020 2:11pm

Deleted User wrote: »

You mean like if the dish is the middle East and the spice is Jews from eastern Europe?

Or the dish is south Africa and the spice is the white descendents of Dutch and British settlers?

Well, like I noted it seems only White cultures need the "spice". It's never suggested for non White cultures, indeed fought against.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It worked out for Irish people even when they didn't do much to assimilate. Irish people are grand in the UK and America now. I often meet North English people through work and I think they have a better first Impression of an Irish person than someone from southern England. They often telle they have an Irish grandparent and how much they enjoyed their holiday in Ireland or they'd like to go to Ireland one day.

It can work out grand if the host nation forgets to be racist towards the I migrating cultures as the English did with Irish people. It remains to be seen if Irish people will be determined to see Multiculturalism as poor, dirty people who are here to cause crime and steal our jobs and our women. Or if we help them assimilate and treat them fairly - though we treat poor Irish people pretty badly in a lot of ways too.

Well it depends on a few things too. The US was a colony based on and needing immigrants. Secondly Irish people can "pass" as local far more easily than African, or Asian. Indeed that was one point of bitterness between African and Irish Americans in the 19th century, that the latter had an advantage out of the box over their darker brethren looking for employment.

RyanthePirate wrote: »

Well using your own logic Wibbs if its not a religious thing then I suppose you agree saying that Irish people are more likely to be paedophiles considering its no longer Catholics or clergy but a cultural thing.

So culturally Irish people have a higher likelihood of being paedophiles?

It certainly seems that for a time at least - between independence and the 90's - that something in Irish culture mixed with the byzantine protection and influence of the Catholic religion and its organisation did lead to a higher incidence of sexual abuse in Irish clergy. And they exported it too. If you look at the cases in the US for example too many are Irish names. Being Irish it's easy to forget that other mostly Catholic nations don't have "priests are kiddie fiddlers" as a meme to nearly the same extent.

KaneToad · 17-06-2020 2:12pm

Wibbs wrote: »

And pubescent girls. Though both have their background in cultural practice, the religion stuff is more of an overlay. EG Jews and Muslims circumcise boys, but Christians don't have to by religious decree. Why? Because the new Abrahamic faith was absorbed by the Classical world where it was seen as something only the primitives beyond the gates did, so it was dropped. Same for the food restrictions of the other two faiths. Even today, try separating an Italian from his pork foodstuffs. Good luck. I'll bring grapes to you in hospital.

I couldn't care less about what food restrictions apply to various faiths. I do have a problem with sexual assaults on children for cultural/religious reasons.

Rodney Bathgate · 17-06-2020 2:14pm

endacl wrote: »

Hard to imagine a dish that can’t be improved by adding a dash of spice.

Good thing.

Mayonnaise will do the job, thanks.

Eric Cartman · 17-06-2020 2:14pm

completedit wrote: »

I lived in Prague. Seems a multicultural city that does well. Huge Vietnamese population who seemed integrated. Big Russian population too and I've heard they can stick to themselves but I wasn't able to tell the difference. Then you have huge amounts of random immigrant groups and everyone gels together but it's all through English. You can live there and never utter a word of Czech. If English wasn't so dominant that would probably cause problems but Czechs are happy to adapt

https://ec.europa.eu/employment_social/empl_portal/SSRinEU/Your%20social%20security%20rights%20in%20Czech%20Republic_en.pdf

When are you entitled to unemployment benefits?
The Czech social insurance scheme provides earnings-related unemployment benefits for a maximum of five months (eight months for those aged 50-55, 11 months for those over 55). All Czech and EU citizens are eligible for this benefit, as long as they meet the following conditions:
 recipients must not be working or studying;
 they must be registered as a jobseeker with the Regional Labour Office and must
not meet the conditions for eligibility for old-age benefits;
 they must have 12 months of basic pension insurance in the past two years,
gained from being in employment or some other working activity (or from the substitute periods of employment – e.g. personal care of child).
Jobseekers who fail to comply with certain conditions (mainly cooperation with the Regional Labour Office) are suspended from the Labour Office register. They may register again after six months. They must also return all benefits that were wrongly paid.
Unemployment benefit is not paid as long as you are entitled to severance pay. Once severance pay comes to an end (e.g. after 3 months), unemployment benefits will be paid.

They don't have a giveaway welfare state which attracts the issues Western Europe faces.

steves2 · 17-06-2020 2:15pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Allowing our EU friends in has proved to be a positive for Ireland, high employment rates, compatible culture, a lot of integration and very friendly people who put roots down and contribute to the community.

Some non EU migrants such as tech workers from the states and Asia work pretty well, although integration into our customs is pretty low among among the asian community but there are no real negatives associated with such.

migration from South America, Africa, the Middle East and some west asian nations (Pakistan etc..) has proven disastrous. High Unemployment, High welfare dependance, low education, high levels of criminality, almost no integration, remunerating a lot of money to their home countries and not spending in the local economy, complete cultural incompatibility and a lack of co-operation with gardai. We were promised their doctors and engineers, we got their equivalent to 'Anto from the flats'

Do you have any stats to back any of that up particularly the last paragraph? Did Irish people not renumerate a lot of money home from UK and elsewhere?

CageWager · 17-06-2020 2:15pm

There are plenty of arguments for and against multiculturalism but the one thing I’m positive about is that the Irish government’s approach of closing their eyes and pretending the negative stuff doesn’t exist for fear of be called racist is the biggest threat to us all.

biko · 17-06-2020 2:15pm

In the last thread about this issue I said look at UK.
If people are happy with how UK have managed it's immigration then I understand why they want it here too.
Those that see issues with the way UK has handled immigration might be less inclined to accept the same type of immigration.

Perhaps we should just have a referendum so the people can speak its will?
It would help guide the politicians that may not know what the Irish people want.

o1s1n · 17-06-2020 2:17pm

nthclare wrote: »

Like a square lemon that doesn't fit into in a hole made for a potato..

Using word's like diatribe makes your comment as sensible as using a sieve to drain a lake..

So I'd try something less inflatable for a response than diatribe...

Bitter sweet and all that jazz

Have you seen how many doctors working in our hospitals aren't Irish?

How many Philipina nurses work in our wards?

How many high paying roles in IT companies are populated with people from all over the globe?

You do realise they're all immigrants too, right?

Wibbs · 17-06-2020 2:20pm

completedit wrote: »

I lived in Prague. Seems a multicultural city that does well. Huge Vietnamese population who seemed integrated. Big Russian population too and I've heard they can stick to themselves but I wasn't able to tell the difference. Then you have huge amounts of random immigrant groups and everyone gels together but it's all through English. You can live there and never utter a word of Czech. If English wasn't so dominant that would probably cause problems but Czechs are happy to adapt

True though the Czechs and the Czech Republic are overwhelmingly made up of White people. The Vietnamese, a demographic that are very much absent in social issues as an ethnic group anywhere in the world, make up under 30,000 people in a population of 10 million. There are far fewer Africans and Middle Easterners in the Czech republic than in Ireland with half her population.

The sad truth is some demographics cause more social issues than others. The darker the skin the more it kicks off and yep it's mostly down to an inherent "them and us" feeling in the native population, which increases same in the Black immigrant population.

Wibbs · 17-06-2020 2:21pm

KaneToad wrote: »

I couldn't care less about what food restrictions apply to various faiths. I do have a problem with sexual assaults on children for cultural/religious reasons.

If you don't understand the basics of why, you won't be able to find out how to stop it.

US2 · 17-06-2020 2:24pm

Is there one example in the history of the planet where different cultures have mixed successfully, think about it.

Beechwoodspark · 17-06-2020 2:28pm

I also would echo a call for a referendum on multiculturalism.

I sense a huge disconnect between politicians and the public on this. A disconnect that is getting wider by the week

A referendum Would give the politicians guidance on the direction this country wants to go

17-06-2020 2:31pm

Immigration is grand,likely wont affect me,i live in arsehole of nowhere.... (only serves those who belive in capitalism/need for perpetual econmic growth though).

Multiculturism only works,so long as noone trys rule the roost over anyone else,and everyone lives and let live (easy for me,as im v.private individual,so outside work/family,maybe interact with 5 people a month)

......ireland is full of nosey fcukers though,who cant even abide travellers,so its somewhat doomed to failure

Marcos · 17-06-2020 2:38pm

biko wrote: »

In the last thread about this issue I said look at UK.
If people are happy with how UK have managed it's immigration then I understand why they want it here too.
Those that see issues with the way UK has handled immigration might be less inclined to accept the same type of immigration.

Perhaps we should just have a referendum so the people can speak its will?
It would help guide the politicians that may not know what the Irish people want.

I think that the powers that be (and certain posters on here) know what the Irish people want* and are running scared of it. That's why they wouldn't have any referendum on it.

*Going by the 27th amendment to the constitution. Looking at the votes by constituency it's striking how much support there was even in communities that would be regarded as ultra liberal and had no bad experiences of multiculturalism. It passed with 79% voting for it, even the lowest vote in favour of the amendment in the country was in Dun Laoghaire Rathdown with 71%.

biko · 17-06-2020 2:48pm

I suppose when all you think about is race then every opponent seems racist.

BarnardsLoop · 17-06-2020 2:56pm

The irony of saying that on a thread full of racist scumbags whinging about how 'white people' are being threatened by the mere existence of non-white people here. Plenty of ye do nothing but think about race, clearly.

What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

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